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Author Topic: Two Dogs killed in Ft. lauderdale by Bees  (Read 6391 times)
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« on: March 17, 2009, 01:59:15 AM »

http://cbs4.com/local/bees.bee.attack.2.960130.html

I will give Willie credit at least he said it could not be determined what type of bees they were without testing. I have a bad impression that these dogs were caged or very restricted in their area of movement.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2009, 06:35:46 AM »

Has there ever been a killing such as this by non-AHB's?
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2009, 07:40:29 AM »

Has there ever been a killing such as this by non-AHB's?

Yes,

but I don't have any of the stories with me right now as I am going to work.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2009, 07:42:53 AM »

Has there ever been a killing such as this by non-AHB's?

Yes,

but I don't have any of the stories with me right now as I am going to work.

Sincerely,
Brendhan



I'll wait....  Wink
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2009, 09:11:09 PM »

I don't know if we even know, "If", animals are allergic to bee stings.
although they would not have to be if they got stung enough times in the nose and mouth
by our gentle bees.
sad story. doak
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 09:29:59 PM »

Has there ever been a killing such as this by non-AHB's?


Yes,

but I don't have any of the stories with me right now as I am going to work.

Sincerely,
Brendhan




I'll wait....  Wink


http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/florida/news-article.aspx?storyid=60896
http://cbs2.com/local/Bee.Swarm.Dog.2.739946.html
http://www.tampabays10.com/includes/tools/print.aspx?storyid=85956
http://www.wpbf.com/cnn-news/17802980/detail.html
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/world/Woman-hurt-as-three-dogs.4631767.jp
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jun/16/local/me-41546
http://www.wkrg.com/mississippi/article/bees_attack_81_year_old_man_kill_his_dog/11454/

I figure that is enough to get you started. That is just dogs. Horses and cats also.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 09:53:07 PM »

Funny, I just watched "swarms" on the animal planet and number three was "Yellow Jacket." Throughout the story the only pictures they showed were of bees (not wasp). The host of the show kept saying wasp but reporter and witnesses kept saying "bees." Bees get blamed even though it was not them.
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2009, 11:25:47 PM »

So what would make the bees act like this??  I keep telling everyone the bees only get aggressive when defending their hives. Also I thought swarms were docile???

Just would like some answers because I am increasing my apiary this year and keep telling people everything is safe.
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 11:31:49 PM »

So what would make the bees act like this??  I keep telling everyone the bees only get aggressive when defending their hives. Also I thought swarms were docile???

Just would like some answers because I am increasing my apiary this year and keep telling people everything is safe.

Bees will act like this for a number of reasons. They get robbed, they lose the queen,  Something disturbs the nest. Swarms generally are not aggressive. However they can be aggressive if sufficiently disturbed.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2009, 11:48:04 PM »

I went back and read the article.
Willie the bee man called it a hive.
If they had taken up residence and was disturbed for what ever reason.
Dogs will eat honey bees. Was the dogs penned or on a leash?
Lots of HuhHuh??'s. I am sure some one will have some thought to have the bees tested.
Our  aggressive "none AHB's " can really be something if stirred up.
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 11:52:35 PM »

I went back and read the article.
Willie the bee man called it a hive.
If they had taken up residence and was disturbed for what ever reason.
Dogs will eat honey bees. Was the dogs penned or on a leash?
Lots of HuhHuh??'s. I am sure some one will have some thought to have the bees tested.
Our  aggressive "none AHB's " can really be something if stirred up.
doak

I am not certain but I suspect the dogs were restrained in some way.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2009, 06:48:18 AM »

Ok, it was praise given to willie for suggesting that he did not know "if" they were AHB's or not.

I asked the question, "if" ANY examples could be shown for situations where dogs being killed were OTHER than AHB attacks.

I assumed you were going to show stories of PROVEN situations where NON-AHB were at fault for deaths.

I'm not going to put words in people's mouths, but I asked the question because it seems that praising Willie for not suggesting AHB, was worth doing, although I am not aware of ANY situations where  proven NON-AHB were responsible for such vicious attacks. And I think it would be best for us to not promote such attacks as being non-AHB without proof they were. I do not want the public to think the average beekeeper with non-AHB are keeping bees that could be responsible for such attacks.

So now what happens....I'm handed a list of articles that are based on dog attacks. And the very first article mentions the bees being sent off for AHB testing. The second article was just details of an attack. Both are in AHB territory. I will not waste my time on the rest of them.

If you are praising willie for suggesting that he did not know if they were AHB's, and possibly suggesting they "might" not be, then lets see some stories of PROVEN attacks and deaths where non-AHB's were to blame.

Willie to me is doing a disservice to beekeepers for in a round about way, suggesting that perhaps non-AHB could be responsible. It's like saying every other death and vicious attack was AHB related, but we better not assume anything here....it's better to think that common non-AHB could be at fault....without such testing. a bad image to pass on to the public!

Show me vicious attacks and deaths outside AHB territory, or proven non-AHB tested bees being responsible.
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2009, 07:54:20 AM »


I will not waste my time on the rest of them.



So I am expected to "waste my time?
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jun/16/local/me-41546
Swarm That Killed Dog Was Not Africanized Bees
http://www.wpbf.com/cnn-news/17802980/detail.html
These bees were tested and shown not to be africanized. I cannot find the story on that but it is out there.
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/world/Woman-hurt-as-three-dogs.4631767.jp
This story takes place in Edinburgh,way outside of AHB area.
http://www.wkrg.com/mississippi/article/bees_attack_81_year_old_man_kill_his_dog/11454/
Not killer bees.
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=bees;rgn=full%20text;idno=6366245_6499_031;view=image;seq=7
Horse killed by bees in 1886
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9E01E4DB123AE63BBC4E51DFBE66838D669FDE
Two horses killed by bees in 1876

You can find plenty of stuff out there like this. More often than not when an attack happens and two months later the test show they were not AHB the retraction is either never printed or in a small correction notice that no one reads.

Sincerely,
Brendhan


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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2009, 08:46:51 AM »

Oh, please do not waste time unless you want too!

I see this....

Story....

#1 Officials shocked that the bees were not AHB. The testing was done in 2000. Nine years ago. We have come a long way in testing from 9 years ago. Not sure what type testing was done, but the reason so much time and money has been spent over the years on perfecting testing verification was due to earlier tests being very unreliable.

#2 No mention of testing

#3 No mention of testing.

#4 I'll get back too... added: I'm not sure the whole play on words about "a strain common to Mississippi" and such. I would of liked to see a straight answer. But lets not get to involved with saying "outside" AHB area. We all know that AHB "area" is anywhere a truck can drive. And I will not blow anyone out of the water...but many know of AHB long ago being released in the south, long before they crossed the Mexican border.  Wink

#5 Were digging back to 1880 for a stinging event. No doubt, probably non-AHB. But 1880??? Compared to the many stinging events since the arrival of AHB, this story equates into a one in a million shot. And lets just assume that reporters back then are as bad as they are today....  Wink

#6 See the above comment in #5 but install the date as 1876

No doubt, attacks have increased dramatically over the past 10 years. And it is not due to EHB' and manged colonies. it is directly related to the arrival and spread of AHB.

I'm still chuckling about you mentioning "many" examples, then pulling two stories from the archives of the 1800's.

Thank you for your effort.

Yes, if you dig deep enough, an example of some animal being attacked could be found. (remember though that dogs have reactions and allergies just like humans. Dogs could go into shock from a few stings, just like humans. And those masses of bees numbering and reported as "Thousands" covering ol' fifi, in reality was probably about 10, after the stupid dog was bitting at the entrance of the colony. But the hysterical owner, some dear old lady, was remembered as this flying mass in the thousands. Bet we all heard about those stories from frightened homeowners, huh?) But compare that to the increased level of attacks today, and one can hardly justify that it's due to EHB's or managed hives. It is due to the AHB. Pure and simple.

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« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2009, 09:09:25 AM »

You can find plenty of stuff out there like this. More often than not when an attack happens and two months later the test show they were not AHB the retraction is either never printed or in a small correction notice that no one reads.

Sincerely,
Brendhan




What retraction? What retraction is needed? My point, is that officials always make some assumption that we have no clue if the bees are AHB, and testing is needed. As your first story pointed out with "willie", we never assume them as AHB and then retract later. We group this as some event that possibly could just as well be non-AHB. Retraction! Were talking retraction! Serious now...were talking retraction! Retraction! Retraction! Not a game. But retraction! (that was my AI impression...  Wink  )
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« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2009, 10:11:37 AM »

You can find plenty of stuff out there like this. More often than not when an attack happens and two months later the test show they were not AHB the retraction is either never printed or in a small correction notice that no one reads.

Sincerely,
Brendhan



You original question was very simple.
Quote from: BjornBee on March 17, 2009, 06:35:46 AM
Has there ever been a killing such as this by non-AHB's?

The answer is Yes through history. There have been people and animals killed by bees.

The examples going back to the 1800's show that. It does not need to be AHB to kill. I figure that is pretty basic.
Quote
What retraction? What retraction is needed?
Because if they aren't AHB it is fearmongering. And it's bad jounalism.
Quote
My point, is that officials always make some assumption that we have no clue if the bees are AHB, and testing is needed. As your first story pointed out with "willie", we never assume them as AHB and then retract later. We group this as some event that possibly could just as well be non-AHB. Retraction! Were talking retraction! Serious now...were talking retraction! Retraction! Retraction! Not a game. But retraction! (that was my AI impression...  Wink  )

Quote
No doubt, attacks have increased dramatically over the past 10 years. And it is not due to EHB' and manged colonies. it is directly related to the arrival and spread of AHB.

And here is where I will completely disagree with you.
I doubt it. I believe it is more feeding to fear than actual reality. 18 Human deaths in 20 years by AHB which includes people who are allergic to bees and were older and have compromised immune systems does not mean that attacks have increased dramatically just the amount of focus the media gives them. We did not really start recording such issues until the media starting driving home the issue of AHB and their escape from South America and the doom and gloom they were suppose to bring with them The reality is that hasn't happened. Bad 70's TV shows like In Search Of and others were more than willing to dive head first into the shallow end of the pool because it gets ratings.

I praised Willie because normally (even his website) go off preaching the evils of AHB. Evils that in reality don't have much of a foundation. It gives the media something dramatic to put on the news and a way for researchers to ask for grants. When the count of of deaths by Bees includes those killed by EHB in 20 years i will be more impressed but they don't keep those records. Also death caused by allergic reaction even if it is AHB is irrelevant. The most recent death which took place here in Florida was someone who receive only a 100 stings. Hardly fatal to your average healthy adult. However if you are allergic 1 is to many. It is like blaming Ford for killing a pedestrian when the driver was on the cell phone. Sure it's a death it goes in the stats but it doesn't reflect the reality of the situation.

As long as let the media continue to do the fear mongering tactics it places a dark issue on bees which they do not deserve.

Sincerely,
Brendhan



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« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2009, 10:34:42 AM »

Ok...since AHB arrived, 18 killed. Show me 18 people killed by non-AHB colonies. It should be easy, since the ratio of non-AHB colonies outnumber AHB colonies, and cover a larger area.

Many, if not all the AHB deaths were stinging incidents. That being where a vicious attack occurred. So lets discount those situations where a person had a reaction to a single sting. Lets keep it to vicious attacks. Yes, depending on the report, 40 to 100 people die every year from bee stings. But those are deaths based on allergic reactions, and not stinging incidents as with AHB attacks. Any bee sting would of killed those people. So do not compare apples and oranges. Were talking a "stinging incident" defined as a vicious attack by thousands of bees.

Confirmed human deaths by AHB attacks.....18.

Go ahead and list at least that many for confirmed non-AHB's? Can you?

Lets see the data of deaths to vicious attacks prior to AHB arriving. And compare that to the ratio afterwards.

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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2009, 10:55:54 AM »

Ok...since AHB arrived, 18 killed. Show me 18 people killed by non-AHB colonies. It should be easy, since the ratio of non-AHB colonies outnumber AHB colonies, and cover a larger area.

Many, if not all the AHB deaths were stinging incidents. That being where a vicious attack occurred. So lets discount those situations where a person had a reaction to a single sting. Lets keep it to vicious attacks. Yes, depending on the report, 40 to 100 people die every year from bee stings. But those are deaths based on allergic reactions, and not stinging incidents as with AHB attacks. Any bee sting would of killed those people. So do not compare apples and oranges. Were talking a "stinging incident" defined as a vicious attack by thousands of bees.

Confirmed human deaths by AHB attacks.....18.

Go ahead and list at least that many for confirmed non-AHB's? Can you?

Lets see the data of deaths to vicious attacks prior to AHB arriving. And compare that to the ratio afterwards.



Two problems those 18 include allergic reactions and compromised health issues. Also there is no kept record for EHB deaths. So I have no way to get that data because no one beyond you and I are interested in it. I would love to have because my knee jerk reaction to it is that is as high or higher than AHB related deaths.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

 
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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2009, 11:16:15 AM »

Ok...since AHB arrived, 18 killed. Show me 18 people killed by non-AHB colonies. It should be easy, since the ratio of non-AHB colonies outnumber AHB colonies, and cover a larger area.

Many, if not all the AHB deaths were stinging incidents. That being where a vicious attack occurred. So lets discount those situations where a person had a reaction to a single sting. Lets keep it to vicious attacks. Yes, depending on the report, 40 to 100 people die every year from bee stings. But those are deaths based on allergic reactions, and not stinging incidents as with AHB attacks. Any bee sting would of killed those people. So do not compare apples and oranges. Were talking a "stinging incident" defined as a vicious attack by thousands of bees.

Confirmed human deaths by AHB attacks.....18.

Go ahead and list at least that many for confirmed non-AHB's? Can you?

Lets see the data of deaths to vicious attacks prior to AHB arriving. And compare that to the ratio afterwards.



Two problems those 18 include allergic reactions and compromised health issues. Also there is no kept record for EHB deaths. So I have no way to get that data because no one beyond you and I are interested in it. I would love to have because my knee jerk reaction to it is that is as high or higher than AHB related deaths.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

 

I'll disagree. Nobody is out there testing bees for people who died from a single sting. They do test when a "incident" is reported, where a vicious attack occurred. Out of the 40 to 100 people who die every year of health related or reactions, both EHB and AHB are to blame. Those stats are hard to come by.

That is why it is much easier to look at reported vicious attacks, when death occurred, and a colony located. Single sting events usually do not have colonies being found, etc.

I'll look myself, but I am sure I have seen a list of the confirmed 18 AHB deaths, and all to my memory attributed to multiple sting attacks. And nothing with EHB's comes close.
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2009, 11:43:35 AM »

I don't know if we even know, "If", animals are allergic to bee stings.

Yes they can be.  I had a black lab that got stung (1 bee, not multiples) and her head swelled up so much she looked like a shar pei.  Almost like the one shown in the article.
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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2009, 01:24:12 PM »

whether or not, report report , retraction retraction, euro,bees ahb.
praise wille praise wille.
Other reports in the past.

From the time the "KILLER" bees appeared on the scene.
Any and every story has been blown to the proportion that has no merits as for as I am concerned.

Bottom line, when there is a massive attack, there should be a test made of the bees,
(reguardless) of the fact that  "this person" or animal was allergic.
I have had a hive or two so aggressive you could not walk with in five feet with out getting chased.
and they were "not" ahb. So the test said.
 I just don't make any cents.doak
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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2009, 02:32:14 PM »

Regardless of what the actual "truth" is, aren't we better served if all deaths related to bees are attributed to AHB? If the general population ever thought, outside allergic reactions, that EHB could killin viscious attacks, we would have a collective nightmare on our hands. As more beeks invade suburbia, and meet more frequent government resistance, we could be zoned out of existance. Three additional municipalities in NJ have banned beekeeping this year and more would follow if EHB could kill akin to AHB. To the general population, there would be no distinction between the two bee types.
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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2009, 03:49:05 PM »

Regardless of what the actual "truth" is, aren't we better served if all deaths related to bees are attributed to AHB? If the general population ever thought, outside allergic reactions, that EHB could killin viscious attacks, we would have a collective nightmare on our hands. As more beeks invade suburbia, and meet more frequent government resistance, we could be zoned out of existance. Three additional municipalities in NJ have banned beekeeping this year and more would follow if EHB could kill akin to AHB. To the general population, there would be no distinction between the two bee types.

That was my point in asking the question to begin with.... Wink I agree with your comments.

We should, for vicious attacks with loss of life, assume AHB, until proven otherwise. Not assume EFB, until proven AHB. We are sending the wrong message by the details presented. And I agree with the ramifications of such passive PR and the message presented.

I've been keeping bees in Pennsylvania for a few years now. Responded to many swarm calls. Am listed on the 911 response list. And I bet there will not be one dog killed this year, or one person killed in Pennsylvania. If it does happen , it's a million to one shot, and probably has aggravating circumstances. That will not be the case for the majority of states that now have populations of AHB. They WILL have vicious attacks and pets killed this year. I'll put money on it. And to suggest that a few isolated events (even if questionable at best) with EHBs equates into the same level of events with AHBs is outright wrong in my opinion.

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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2009, 04:02:11 PM »

You are correct, but except for the general public, who don't know squat about either of the bees,
when the "media" gets through with it.
to them  a bee is a bee is a bee. :roll:doak
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2009, 04:49:53 PM »

You are correct, but except for the general public, who don't know squat about either of the bees,
when the "media" gets through with it.
to them  a bee is a bee is a bee. :roll:doak

That's why as beekeepers, we need to be proactive and not reactive. And we also need to be informed, and well versed on what to say, what not to say. It's nice to think that all beekeepers know what to say, and such things as agenda, motives of money, etc., do not come into play. unfortunately, that is not the case.

May I suggest a day where we as beekeeper all across the country could all make a concentrated one day effort to talk to the public about pesticides, chemicals, and even the truth surrounding AHBs? It's called "National Honey Bee Awareness Day". Someone started a thread under the main beekeeping forum, where the thread is "pinned". Or you can also see www.nhbad.com   rolleyes

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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2009, 06:42:21 PM »

#1, A person doesn't have to be allergic, and doesn't have to be stung multiple times to die.
Get stung once in your breathing passage and see what happens.
#2, Multiple stings doesn't mean AHB.
#3 The media could care less what kind of bees it is, doesn't have to be "honey bees" for them, "the Media" to make a big thing out of it and say it was honey bees. AHB or not.

Had did I get involved  in this one any how. Smiley :roll:doak
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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2009, 06:55:13 PM »


#3 The media could care less what kind of bees it is, doesn't have to be "honey bees" for them, "the Media" to make a big thing out of it and say it was honey bees. AHB or not.

Had did I get involved  in this one any how. Smiley :roll:doak

And many times it's quotes from beekeepers that do the most damage. Yes, we can not expect much from non-beekeepers who know nothing of bees. That's why in statements we should distinguish wild and feral as compared to managed hives. It not whether they are AHB in the media's eyes as you said, it's the event they report. But these events are not happening in "Joe the beekeeper's" bee yard. So it should be easy to use terminology that does not paint a bad light on bees or beekeepers. Instead of making statements about whether they are AHB, we should start pointing out that "this particular colony was wild, feral, or from a unmanaged situation". The message would be that we do a service in managing them, that bees maintained by beekeepers are not the problem, and that it's not beekeepers that are perpetuating these events, we stop them.

I bet 75% of the times a beekeeper opens his mouth when the reporter's camera is rolling, something foolish is said, either by painting the wrong picture, or by not taking advantage of the situation in making it the best situation it could be.

Of course the 25% of the smart beekeepers hang out here on beemaster, so I could not possibly be talking about any of you..... grin
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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2009, 08:20:45 PM »

I cannot go that route.
Just because a colony if feral doesn't have a thing to do with whether it is AHB or not.
There are still a lot of feral bees out there that have not came into contact with the AHB.
Every Bee Keeper cannot recover every swarm that leaves his/her bee yard.
After a couple years in the wild the gentleness is gone.
Carnelian is one of the worst when they cross out with Italian.
You would think you had AHB. Been there, done that.
And (had) them tested. 99.99 percent, not AHB. is what they tested.
They chased me for two or three hours for several hundred yards and took a week for them to settle down. They were re queened with a new prolific Italian Queen.
All I have now is survivors from feral swarms. With no Queen  over 2 years old.
 :)doak
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BjornBee
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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2009, 09:14:45 PM »

I cannot go that route.
Just because a colony if feral doesn't have a thing to do with whether it is AHB or not.
There are still a lot of feral bees out there that have not came into contact with the AHB.
Every Bee Keeper cannot recover every swarm that leaves his/her bee yard.
After a couple years in the wild the gentleness is gone.
Carnelian is one of the worst when they cross out with Italian.
You would think you had AHB. Been there, done that.
And (had) them tested. 99.99 percent, not AHB. is what they tested.
They chased me for two or three hours for several hundred yards and took a week for them to settle down. They were re queened with a new prolific Italian Queen.
All I have now is survivors from feral swarms. With no Queen  over 2 years old.
 :)doak

Who said anything about labeling all feral bees as AHBs? Please read my comments again. My comments clearly state that we should get away from this viewpoint that bees are or are not AHB from the media's viewpoint. My comments were aimed at portraying bees as either feral, wild, or managed. It should be loud and clear that the bees in vicious attacks, are not from managed hives.

Maybe I need to step back a step or two. I was talking about perhaps getting the media/public/non-beekeepers to understand the difference, but maybe we should start with beekeepers.

Here is a situation....

Little old lady loses her dog.

We can do what we usually do, and that is mention honey bees. We can mention "perhaps" they are AHB. We can lump all bees together, as we always have done so the public knows no difference between the bees that killed the dog, and the very same bees we keep in our hives.

Or.....

We can openly and honestly distinguish when mentioning bees that killed that dog, and define it beyond honey bees. The very honey bees we keep.

We can use words such as wild, feral, unmanaged. It should be clear that these are NOT the same bees that beekeepers keep.

But were so hung up in defining or somehow portraying every sting incident as some "honey bee" event, and for the layperson or public in general, they see no difference in that wild colony and the bees you keep.

I'll say again, it's not about AHB, it's about public perception, and clearly stating that it is not managed colonies doing the damage. And it should be clear that the public should not be concerned with managed hives. It is unmanaged colonies they should be aware of. 
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« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2009, 10:32:04 PM »

All of my hives now are from feral colonies or swarms, you're hurting their feelings by saying they are unruly, they give me soft kisses in the morning.


...JP
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2009, 05:57:11 PM »

One last thing I'll say.
Whether it was AHB's, Feral colony. If they were indeed honey bees, they were honey bees.

I don't have a handle on the record, but I would bet there there is some documented record that ( kept Managed) colonies have caused an incident.  Maybe not as often. Still, just because it is a feral colony doesn't mean it is AHB. Now I'll hush. :)doak
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