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Author Topic: SHB control outside the hive  (Read 5013 times)
SlickMick
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« on: March 15, 2009, 07:37:50 AM »

I am starting this thread because it was suggested in another thread that there may be a way of controlling the SHB outside the hive. See http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17485.0/all.html. Perhaps because this was an old thread it may not have attracted any interest but I think that some of the observations made during the thread are pertinant to SHB control and I would like to see them discussed in greater detail.

Basically it is suggested during the thread that the use of traps outside the hive that contains a pollen attractant and an insecticide or an exoskeleton abrasive such as borax that permits entry to the SHB only may be a workable process of protecting a larger number of hives than we are able to do now

The obvious thing is to ensure that our bees are not able to access the trap or the insecticide. We know what size slot the bee needs to pass through and that the SHB needs one that is significantly less. If the pollen or pollen bait in the hive is such an attractant to the SHB in the hive, why can't this knowledge be used outside the trap?
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On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
fermentedhiker
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 09:59:06 AM »

interesting idea.  A SHB lure/trap.  Since SHB are supposed to be attracted to bees alarm pheromone, combining that with the bait patty might help.
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WOB419
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2009, 09:28:14 PM »

An old time beekeeper in my area suggested that I try taking a sheet of thin metal, paint it black, tack it to a wood frame to hold it off of the ground by a couple of inches and place it below the hives.  His idea is that the sun will heat up the black metal, as the SHB drops out of the hive to work its way into the ground it will fall onto the metal that is heated up by the sun and will die before it can get off.  My bee yard is too heavily treed for the sun to heat the metal very much, but it sounds like an interesting idea.  Your thoughts...
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SlickMick
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2009, 07:52:59 AM »

I think it is a good idea provided the sun shines 24 hours a day. The other thing is the use of traps under the entrance board provided they can be sheltered from the rain.

Mick
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On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
charles
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2009, 07:14:07 AM »

An old time beekeeper in my area suggested that I try taking a sheet of thin metal, paint it black, tack it to a wood frame to hold it off of the ground by a couple of inches and place it below the hives.  His idea is that the sun will heat up the black metal, as the SHB drops out of the hive to work its way into the ground it will fall onto the metal that is heated up by the sun and will die before it can get off.  My bee yard is too heavily treed for the sun to heat the metal very much, but it sounds like an interesting idea.  Your thoughts...

It would only work for solid bottom boards.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 07:53:28 AM by charles » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2009, 07:34:25 AM »

I asked in another of your threads if salting the ground (heavily) around the outside of  the hive would break the brood cycle of the shb (some part of the cycle needs them to fall into the earth) and whether it would be harmful to the bees - this is a more appropriate place to follow up really. I live in Florida and I've already seen 4 or 5 of the little nasties; I have 2 sbb's and one adapted trap. I'm quite interested in an effective non toxic attack strategy myself.
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SlickMick
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2009, 08:14:08 AM »

The purpose of salting the earth, (I assume you mean to place a  layer of salt under the entrance) would be for the larva to fall onto it and become dehydrated by it? Or do you mean for the salt to have a different effect on the larva?

Lime may be another thing that could be placed to have a dehydrating effect but I would think that you would need to make a box or something large enough to cover the full width of the landing board and then some to ensure the larva drop into the salt or what ever. The other thing is that it would need to be replaced after rain I would expect.

A couple of other things. If you get to the point where you are killing larva your hive is most likely in trouble. If there is beetle in it it is much easier to trap if the hive is strong and has aggressive tendencies towards the beetle. I think that what you dont want are beetle laying eggs which turn into larva and then do the damage throughout the hive. If the colony is covering the frames and is proactive towards the beetle they do not have a lot of time to lay eggs unless they can hide in cells or elsewhere where they can take a rest and lay without harrassment.

Whilst traps are not going to get rid of all SHB in the hive I do think that the bees may learn that there is a place where they can chase and that they dont come back.

Also breaking the life cycle is part of the deal in my view and I think it important to be actively pursueing more than one option. I periodically get a mature larva in the oil trap and so I think that some of them must get through into the soil. I am working on an entrance board trap for the purpose of dealing with these escaping larva .

The other thing is that the beetle flies in and I have the thought that it must be possible to trap them outside the hive before they gain entry

Mick
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On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
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that's me - setting a phoenix free


« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2009, 08:52:10 AM »

The purpose of salting the earth, (I assume you mean to place a  layer of salt under the entrance) would be for the larva to fall onto it and become dehydrated by it? Or do you mean for the salt to have a different effect on the larva?

Lime may be another thing that could be placed to have a dehydrating effect but I would think that you would need to make a box or something large enough to cover the full width of the landing board and then some to ensure the larva drop into the salt or what ever. The other thing is that it would need to be replaced after rain I would expect.

a couple of other things. If you get to the point where you are killing larva your hive is most likely in trouble. If there is beetle in it it is much easier to trap if the hive is strong and has aggressive tendencies towards the beetle. I think that what you dont want are beetle laying eggs which turn into larva and then do the damage throughout the hive. If the colony is covering the frames and is proactive towards the beetle they do not have a lot of time to lay eggs unless they can hide in cells or elsewhere where they can take a rest and lay without harrassment.[...]

Mick

I do mean as a dehydrating agent -if that's how it works - I don't live far from the gulf of Mexico - and as plants go - there are only a few which can tolerate the salty soil (within about 1000M of shore). I suppose the salt tolerant plants have filters of a sort.
(and there is a different kind of itchy biting insect from the mosquito near shore).
I was told to use lime in the trap, but I wasn't sure it was safe to treat the ground with it (as a back up)
If I understand correctly; trapping and treating the ground should help prevent you from reaching infestation levels - of course with new beetles arriving from elsewhere somewhat(?) regularly.
I like your idea of preemptive trapping, but the attractant would have to be more powerful than the hive itself.
(I would think breeding a varroa mite that prefers the hive beetle to the honeybee might promote mutual extinction in the two pests leaving the bee in peace, but you can't grow cotton candy either [candy floss?])

Bear in mind I'm a newbie, and I hope a more experienced beek can address my guesses.
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KD4MOJ
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2009, 10:12:27 AM »

I have some screen bottom boards with the veggie oil tray and catch quite a few. But I just put some GardStar below the SBB and around the hives. It will be intereseting in a week or so to see if this stuff really works.  My two hives are mostly shady with only about 2 hours of partial sun so I do have a SHB problem. Next 2 hives I plan on having will be in full sun.

...DOUG
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wdgsr
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2009, 08:36:26 AM »

What do you think about putting the hive over a basin of water going on the knowledge that at one phase of the life cycle the shb must return to soil. I aquired a stainless steel tank about 4ft X4ftX4inches deep. If I put mount my hive stand inside this tank and put about 2inchs of water inside with a topping of mineral oilshould stop the cycle. I know it won't work for larger beekeepers but I think it will work for someone like me with 2 hives.
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jimmyo
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2009, 10:02:16 AM »

Has anyone tried beneficial nemitodes under the hive?
jim
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WOB419
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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 10:04:56 PM »

wdgsr, what can it hurt?  Its sounds like a cool experiment, and beekeeping is full of experiments.  I would watch it on a daily basis to find any unintended consequences asap.
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SlickMick
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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 10:27:40 PM »

I think that it is well worth the effort of finding out how effective it is WDGSR. I like the idea of floating oil on the top.. that should get rid of any problems with mosquitoes. It may be worth placing some gauze over the top to stop the bees from attempting to use the tank as a swimming pool.

As far as nematodes are concerned, I have no idea if anyone has tried them. Maybe someone has heard and is able to post here

Mick

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On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
SgtMaj
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2009, 01:02:53 AM »

Why not try nailing a bottom onto a deep hive body and putting it below a hive with an open SBB and put about an inch of salt in the bottom of it and some #8 HW screen over the top? 

Here's what I'm thinking: The high sides of the deep hive body shouldn't let rain get in to the salt to ruin it, the screen over the top of it will keep the bees out, and the hard bottom would prevent the adults from simply burrowing below the salt to lay their eggs.  The same setup would probably also work with borax or DE... or if it's made water-tight veggie oil would drown them.
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rast
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2009, 06:31:54 PM »

 Not my opinion, but what we were told at the UF beekeeping collage by Jerry Hays. Ground drenches don't work here because all their tests show that the SMB fly's into the hives from miles away.
 My opinion is that any dead SHB larva is good SHB larva.   
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Wes Sapp
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2009, 06:53:58 PM »

Not my opinion, but what we were told at the UF beekeeping collage by Jerry Hays. Ground drenches don't work here because all their tests show that the SMB fly's into the hives from miles away.
 My opinion is that any dead SHB larva is good SHB larva.  
I may be wrong but I thought the purpose of a ground drench such as Gardstar was to break the life cycle. When the larvae drops out of the hive onto the ground to pupae it's killed by the drench. Not sure what flying into a hive has do to with that, can you explain?
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Wes Sapp
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2009, 08:58:44 PM »

 Sure, the Guardstar kills the larva that comes out of the hive above it and goes to the ground. However it does not help with the larva down the road that pupates and grows into a beetle and fly's into your hive and lays eggs there.  Then that beetle lays eggs in your hive and the larva damage the comb sometimes to the extent of the bees absconding before they drop out into the Guardstar. According to the U of F, the beetles will fly for miles to get into a hive when they smell it. Tests "supposedly" have shown that the larva can pupate in the hive also.
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SlickMick
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2009, 11:18:14 PM »

As I understand it there are some possibilities to interrupt the life cycle of the SHB.

At the adult stage of the beetle before it lays. This is what having traps attempts to do. It is also what having bees that show aggression towards the beetle and having strong colonies and all frames well covered with bees attempts to do. The best that these methods can achieve can only be partial protection.

Once the beetle lays and the egg hatches we rely on the bee to be able to deal with the larva before it becomes a threat to the safety of the hive. Once the larva reaches maturity and is able to exit the hive it again becomes feasible to interrupt its life cycle by either trapping the larva before it reaches the ground or by killing it in the ground. Once the larva pupates into an immature beetle it is then able to enter the hive again by flying in.

I understand that Rast is correct in stating that the larva is able to pupate inside the hive. Occasionally I find a mature larva in my bottom board oil traps so I assume that some are getting out and into the soil and that trapping them inside the hive (unless it is some sort of trap that kills the larva) does nothing to prevent them pupating here.

Perhaps I am incorrect in my understanding of the SHB's life cycle and I hope if that's the case then someone is able to correct me.

1.   Adult Beetle flys into hive

2.   Lays eggs

3.   Eggs hatch

4.   Larva moves through honey comb and drops to floor of hive

5.   Larva enter soil and pupate or pupate in hive

6.   Pupa  emerge as immature SHB and fly into the hive

So at the present time I believe that the stages that offer the opportunity to interrupt the life cycle is at

1 Preventing the SHB from entering the hive or trapping and killing the adult inside the hive.. is preventing it from entering the hive achievable?
2 preventing it from laying eggs
4/5 preventing the larva from pupating

Some thoughts to dwell upon

Mick

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On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
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that's me - setting a phoenix free


« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2009, 02:20:32 PM »

I had something occur to me today. I was out watching the girls and plotting ways to trim the oaks so they get  little more sun, when I saw the fire ants on the ground beneath the entrance happily munching on an ejected bee larva.
my first instinct with ants of course is to kill them (sorry ant lovers) - this is because we have fire ants; but it also dawned on me that maybe I need to go with the prevention methods to keep the ants from marching up to the hives, and I should leave them nesting down below the bee entrance. larva falls to finish maturing, ants eat larva, beekeeper enjoys watching nature handle it for him.
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2009, 08:12:18 PM »

May be something to it. I split a couple of hives this morning. Both were setting on a couple of blocks setting on a piece of plywood. Both had fire ants under the plywood. Only saw 2 beetles in 1 hive. The problem is how far beetles will fly to get to a hive that has emitted a lot of alarm pheromone. At least they may kill the ones coming out of the hive.
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2009, 09:20:14 PM »

Yeah Mick, you know you mentioned a trap outside the hive before they enter. it's probably something for more of a chemist that myself, but what if you could duplicate the alarm pheromone so well that you could put it in a "roach motel" type trap for the beetles (far away from the hives of course - or they'll be irritated all the time - say 30 or 40 meters). just a powerful scent to draw and trap the pests before they ever get in. - I may try it with some bananas and a sticky trap and see how it goes. 
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2009, 04:58:41 PM »

I have some screen bottom boards with the veggie oil tray and catch quite a few. But I just put some GardStar below the SBB and around the hives. It will be intereseting in a week or so to see if this stuff really works.  My two hives are mostly shady with only about 2 hours of partial sun so I do have a SHB problem. Next 2 hives I plan on having will be in full sun.

...DOUG


Doug-   did the Gardstar work?

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SlickMick
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 05:30:36 PM »

Yeah Mick, you know you mentioned a trap outside the hive before they enter. it's probably something for more of a chemist that myself, but what if you could duplicate the alarm pheromone so well that you could put it in a "roach motel" type trap for the beetles (far away from the hives of course - or they'll be irritated all the time - say 30 or 40 meters). just a powerful scent to draw and trap the pests before they ever get in. - I may try it with some bananas and a sticky trap and see how it goes. 

That's the sort of thing I have been thinking of. Maybe not the alarm pheromone but certainly using attractants like pollen patties perhaps in a cd case with an appropriate insecticide bait. I have never used pollen patties but intend to get some pollen and mix up a test sample over the next few days to see if they will work outside the hive in traps.

I imagine they would work inside the hive and have seen pics of something like that with heaps of dead shb in them but I am reluctant to put them inside the hive with chemicals in them

Mick
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On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
Bee Happy
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Location: Between Panama city, Florida and Dothan Al.

that's me - setting a phoenix free


« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2009, 06:53:56 PM »

Why not try nailing a bottom onto a deep hive body and putting it below a hive with an open SBB and put about an inch of salt in the bottom of it and some #8 HW screen over the top? 

Here's what I'm thinking: The high sides of the deep hive body shouldn't let rain get in to the salt to ruin it, the screen over the top of it will keep the bees out, and the hard bottom would prevent the adults from simply burrowing below the salt to lay their eggs.  The same setup would probably also work with borax or DE... or if it's made water-tight veggie oil would drown them.

clever, I might give that a go.
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SlickMick
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2009, 07:38:38 PM »

Why not try nailing a bottom onto a deep hive body and putting it below a hive with an open SBB and put about an inch of salt in the bottom of it and some #8 HW screen over the top? 

Here's what I'm thinking: The high sides of the deep hive body shouldn't let rain get in to the salt to ruin it, the screen over the top of it will keep the bees out, and the hard bottom would prevent the adults from simply burrowing below the salt to lay their eggs.  The same setup would probably also work with borax or DE... or if it's made water-tight veggie oil would drown them.

I think that would work quite well. Have to make myself an SBB

Mick
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On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
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