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Author Topic: Where to buy German Black Bees  (Read 15493 times)
contactme_11
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« on: March 10, 2009, 04:31:18 PM »

Does anyone have a source? Anywhere? I'm in MA if it helps.
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 04:38:32 PM »

In all my hours of scouring the net I haven't come across anyone claiming to maintain them.  Doesn't mean they aren't out there, just that I haven't seen them.  Best wishes on your search.
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 05:25:06 PM »

You can get about the same temperament from a colony of Africanized out of Texas. The Germans may be just a little meaner, but it will be close.  shocked

I have one outyard that gets a little blacker and meaner with each supercedure, but I have no idea where the drones are coming from.
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 05:34:39 PM »

You might want to try mountainvalleybee. Here is his profile and you can pm him to see if he can help.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?action=profile;u=4182
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 10:21:57 PM »

I have two hives located in a deep swamp here in southeast Ga. They are black german bees. cAUGHT FROM A TREE SWARMP IN THE SAME SWAMP
VERY VERY VERY MEAN
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2009, 09:56:32 AM »

You might want to try mountainvalleybee. Here is his profile and you can pm him to see if he can help.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?action=profile;u=4182


I've bought queens from Mountain Valley.  there great bees.

Camp
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 09:57:43 AM »

I have two hives located in a deep swamp here in southeast Ga. They are black german bees. cAUGHT FROM a TREE SWARMP IN THE SAME SWAMP
VERY VERY VERY MEAN

If you find some queen cells from this hive any chance of buying buying one? 

Camp
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 08:11:29 PM »

Thanks that answered my question as well.

Cossack.
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2009, 08:52:34 AM »

Does anyone have a source? Anywhere? I'm in MA if it helps.

I do not believe there is such a thing anymore. Based on the many years of Italians flooding the environment, the turn over in genetics by the spread of swarms and the total number of beekeepers, and the almost complete elimination of ferals when v-mites were introduced, I think throwing around "German black bees" borders on urban legend and pipe dreams.

The increased use of NWC and carni's in general over the years, has puts many black bees out there.

If you drew on a map, a 10 mile circle around the location of every beekeeper, every apiary, there are few places that some magical population of German black bees could of existed and maintain a genetic line, for what would be required for having this discussion. It just does not happen that way.

Everytime a beekeeper gets a black queen, or a hot hive, imaginations of some long lost line of German black bees keeps popping up. Truth is, many, many beekeepers changed over the years prior to the v-mites decimation, and the black bees days were numbered. Not because of being wiped out, but by being watered down by the millions of colonies that were being maintained by beekeepers in the past 50 years. Then if you factor in the repopulation of the ferals in the past 10 years with swarms from managed colonies, none of them would be German black bees of today.

If there were German black bees around today, would you not think ONE researcher would do some testing and confirm that?

I've got some rather dark queens in my operation. If it would make anyone feel good, the next time I have a hot one, I'll set it aside and label it "German Black", and you can get it....  grin
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2009, 09:49:56 AM »

Curiosity... Are there any left in Germany??
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2009, 10:00:03 AM »

Curiosity... Are there any left in Germany??

Probably not. At least not pure. Beekeepers there, have imported and spread other bees around over the years just like us. And they have used Italians for years in commercial operations. Basically, they chose a better breed for honey production over the local stock, before many problems were introduced.

Malcolm Sanford has some ideas of locating and isolating the remaining pockets of pure or "the purist" of what we have left, for many good ideas, but lacks global commitment and funding.

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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2009, 04:49:03 PM »

I seem to remember reading about some beeks in the UK trying to maintain/restore or something like that the management of APis m.m. but I'll have to search around to see if I can relocate the page.  Even if they are I would think the "purity" of such bees would be in question for the reason Bjorn already mentioned.  That being said I wouldn't mind playing with some if I found them  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2009, 12:30:03 PM »

Does anyone have a source? Anywhere? I'm in MA if it helps.

 I'm in NH and Northern Mass, Hampshire & Frankline Counties, and I have 2 hives to German Black Bees, 2 Italian, 2 Russian and the rest of the 41 are BuckFast. The black bees are about as "pissy" as the Russians on a normal day, infact most days I'd rather work them instead od the Russians.
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2009, 02:05:16 PM »

Does anyone have a source? Anywhere? I'm in MA if it helps.

 I'm in NH and Northern Mass, Hampshire & Frankline Counties, and I have 2 hives to German Black Bees,

Are you sure that's what they are and not hybred feral? (If so are you interested in making up a nuc?)
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2009, 02:16:13 PM »

if you make up a nuc, the queen will have to mate.  she will mate with drones.  the likelihood that these drones will be german is very low.  the offspring from this queen will be half german (assuming she IS full german)  the supercedure queen that your hive will get eventually will be 1/4 german, then 1/8.  this is what is meant by the watering down process.  To keep the bees pure german, they would need to be bred AI or in a remote mating yard with other pure germans.  There are just not enough around anymore to keep them from getting inbred.

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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2009, 07:28:33 PM »

bjorn, i guess you dont know the inacessibility of some areas of the south, also there are some areas where there are mighty few bee keepers. they might not be pure but mighty close to it.  i am no expert or custodian of all knowledge;  but i have some little black bees and they have an attitude.
look at a population map of pa then one of east central Ms. there has been no comercial bee keeper in our area in 30 yrs an as i understand some species genetics they regress towards the dominant genes; like hybrid bream in 4 years they will be green sun perch.
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2009, 08:35:11 PM »

I bought 15 hives of German blacks from a widow in Northern Md. Advertised this way in ad. when speaking to her she told me that her husband would only keep blacks. because of their ability to make perfect white comb for comb honey production. which is all they did for farmer market sales. after two years I re queened all. many of time I would be working on one hive and  the next two hives were allready boiling out the front of their hive. To hot for me white comb or not. 
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2009, 08:56:41 PM »

bjorn, i guess you dont know the inacessibility of some areas of the south, also there are some areas where there are mighty few bee keepers. they might not be pure but mighty close to it.  i am no expert or custodian of all knowledge;  but i have some little black bees and they have an attitude.
look at a population map of pa then one of east central Ms. there has been no comercial bee keeper in our area in 30 yrs an as i understand some species genetics they regress towards the dominant genes; like hybrid bream in 4 years they will be green sun perch.


You guessing about what I know, is about like my guessing what you know. Pure nonsense.

I do know as far as I can tell, that nobody in 25 years or longer has sold, bred, or propagated German black bees. And it's not like it's impossible to genetically test for such things. So why hasn't one researcher, one breeder, one beekeeper in 25 years tested for German black bee genetics?

Don't dig up one circumstance of some deep swamp genetic line, and claim that you just happen to have them. I've heard that story in Pennsylvania, Virginia, Arkansas, and about 20 other states over the years. You would think with all the supposed magical powers of these feral survival colonies, the stories of 20 year colonies in some tree, and whatever else the stories are told, that one person could stand up and foot the bill to have some bees tested. But nobody is willing to take that chance on bursting their little own fantasy bee hive of dark bees that are labeled due to color or having some attitude.

Three things hold true but are continued to be perpetuated again and again...

1) Nobody has proven some long lost isolated gentic line of German black bees.

2) There are no mite resistant bees on the market, regardless of how many market their bees as such.

3) Putting your hives on a particular comb or in a particular hive, does not make your bees able to deal with every problem known to exist.

Yes, wouldn't it be nice to have all three of the above comment 100% true. But do not drink the Kool-aid. Save that for being sucked in by the next politician.  Wink
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2009, 11:50:14 AM »

BjornBee,

2)  Your assertion that there aren’t mite resistant bees is wrong and flies in the face of many respected studies.  I know of several bee keepers that haven't treated for years here in Oregon and Washington.  The term is Mite Sensitive Hygene.

3)  Yes putting you bees on smaller comb shortens brood cycle which significantly cuts the reproduction of mites.
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2009, 10:29:14 PM »

BjornBee,

2)  Your assertion that there aren't mite resistant bees is wrong and flies in the face of many respected studies.  I know of several bee keepers that haven't treated for years here in Oregon and Washington.  The term is Mite Sensitive Hygene.

3)  Yes putting you bees on smaller comb shortens brood cycle which significantly cuts the reproduction of mites.

Well then, lets see these mite resistant bees and the studies. Lets see bees, regardless of where you put them, regardless of what they are placed on, and regardless of the type beekeeping you choose....that these bees are mite resistant. If mite resistant, it would not matter as to what type comb, or hive, etc.

Your second point just confirms my first point. If NOT for putting bees on unnatural small cell comb, your bees would not even be as mite resistant as one could suggest. Perhaps putting them on smallcell helps, but that is a mechanical manipulation of the bees, which adds to the lowering of mites. Just as drone comb removal or dusting with sugar. Why does placing bees on unnatural small cell comb allow one to suggest that bees are mite resistant?

Now if you want to discuss keeping bees in manners that allow bee to survive at a higher rate, that is another story. But if the bees unto themselves are truly mite resistant, then they should be able to survive by themselves without mechanical manipulation, or anything beyond "natural". And forcing bees on smallcell is not natural.

As for your studies, I am not aware of one study that has taken bees from ANY breeder, who claims mite resistance, and followed the colonies left alone for a period of time to see if they can handle mites by themselves.

Yes, bees are more hygienic than they were ten years ago. But I am not in agreement we have bees able to deal with mites by themselves, but for the fact of beekeeper intervention.

BTW....Mite Sensitive Hygene....where does that translate into mite resistant bees?

I've seen many suggestive advertising and marketing playing with the words like hygienic, mite resistant, and other descriptive fluff. I have yet to see one breeder state "Buy my bees and you will never have to worry about mites again!".

Show me the studies showing who has mite resistant bees, and show me breeders making such claims.

The closest I have seen is an outfit down in Texas that speaks of their own success. But like many breeders, nuc producers and queen producers, the nature of what they do within their own programs allows them to go chemical free. You pull enough queens and make enough splits, and anyone can suppress mites through the year.

Hey wait a minute! That is what I do. I don't treat. I pull almost all my queens, and make splits all summer. Highest mite count in the past three years by state inspectors was 2! But do I market "Mite resistant" bees...No! Why...because many things go into having bees deal with mites. Bees don't do it themselves. At least not yet.

And before someone jumps in with "I know a beekeeper who has not treated for 6 years and the colony is still alive"...and other such comments, I'll agree I have a few of those hives also. Most beekeepers have that wonder hive that for some reason seems to handle things. And who knows what goes into making that hive survive when other died.  Raise me a thousand queens off one of those claimed mite resistant hives, put a guarantee behind it, and call me this weekend. You give back the money for everyone that dies of mites. I'll be happy to place an order.

In the meantime, find those studies, and let me know who claims to have mite resistant bees and will be willing to back it up..... Wink
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« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2009, 05:37:25 AM »



Hey wait a minute! That is what I do. I don't treat. I pull almost all my queens, and make splits all summer. Highest mite count in the past three years by state inspectors was 2! But do I market "Mite resistant" bees...No! Why...because many things go into having bees deal with mites. Bees don't do it themselves. At least not yet.


give us some examples of the things that go into having bees deal with mites without pulling queens or manipulating, I dont understand this statement? are you saying they can't survive without some kind of manipulation?


Bjorn have you changed your site recently? looks real good!!!
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« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2009, 09:07:02 AM »

Contact me 11,
 After all this,I guess the real answer is you are not going to buy them commercially.You will have to be satisfied with"alleged" or unproven strains. Not to say they don't exist,but they are not commercially available it seems.
 I would look through the commercially available queens with the traits that appeal to what you desire and purchase one of those,unless you are able to get a split from someones bees that carry the trait you are looking for. Good Luck in finding what you want.
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« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2009, 09:46:56 AM »



Hey wait a minute! That is what I do. I don't treat. I pull almost all my queens, and make splits all summer. Highest mite count in the past three years by state inspectors was 2! But do I market "Mite resistant" bees...No! Why...because many things go into having bees deal with mites. Bees don't do it themselves. At least not yet.


give us some examples of the things that go into having bees deal with mites without pulling queens or manipulating, I dont understand this statement? are you saying they can't survive without some kind of manipulation?


Bjorn have you changed your site recently? looks real good!!!

Ted, my comments were made to say that nobody has bees, that they can shake into a three pound package, then market those bees as mite resistant and able to deal with mites due to solely genetic reasoning. Handing someone a package, then saying "These bees are mite resistant...as long as you do everything I do to keep them alive" is not the same thing as claiming mite resistant bees.

If we are looking at millions of colonies, yes, there are hives that seemingly are mite resistant. Those people who are using mechanical manipulation, and unique equipment options perhaps see hives succeed on a higher level. But as soon as those bees are not continued to be manipulated, they seem far less mite resistant.

Thanks for the comments on the website.  Wink
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« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2009, 10:00:12 AM »

Contact me 11,
 After all this,I guess the real answer is you are not going to buy them commercially.You will have to be satisfied with"alleged" or unproven strains. Not to say they don't exist,but they are not commercially available it seems.
 I would look through the commercially available queens with the traits that appeal to what you desire and purchase one of those,unless you are able to get a split from someones bees that carry the trait you are looking for. Good Luck in finding what you want.

I agree with what you say. And I do actually think that many have better bees than others, and overall we have better bees than we did ten years ago.
My rub, is those who claim to have mite resistant bees. One hive, or a particular beekeeper having success on a individual local level, is a far cry from the mainstream bee industry being able to claim a strain of bees that are totally mite resistant. I think we have heard the term "Mite Resistant" from so many beekeepers, for so many reasons, that we are beginning to believe this to be fact. In fact, I hear there are some well documented reports proving mite resistant bees. Wink I have seen none.

I have beekeepers call me, and ask for "Mite resistant bees" all the time. They think if they get Russians, or from a "natural" beekeeper, or from someone who does not use chemicals, that they can simply order those same bees, drop them into a hive, and they will never have to worry about mites ever again. And that is absolutely wrong to perpetuate these type urban legend false claims that seem to have taken hold within the industry. It is not true that that can be accomplished at this time. But some are selling that concept.

I spend much time talking to beekeepers explaining what goes into keeping bees without chemicals. And letting them know first and right up front, that buying one persons bees or another person's bees, will not allow them to place those bees in a hive and expect to never have mite problems. I buy craploads of bees from other people. Some from this site, and I have never yet to see anyone have bees being totally and completely mite resistant.
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« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2009, 09:07:58 PM »

Mite resistant is not the same as mite proof. If a bee forcefully removes one mite from the hive, that hive is mite resistant. Now you can discuss the degree of resistance.
I think Bjorn is saying there are no mite "proof" bees. I think all bees are mite resistant, just not to the degree of maintaining a healthy hive.
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2012, 11:19:01 PM »

I purchased two Nucs from a friend that lives around Amish country, one had a black queen (I imagine from black drones from some Amish hive)  the hive grew to half black with all black drones.  They are meaner than heck.  I had to move them away from the others so I could work the others.  I think they are a hybrid from German Blacks.
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2012, 11:18:19 AM »

Id have to say if someone had the perfect mite resistent bee they would be famous  and have lots of money from the government and the bee labs testing and if so they would be breeding these traits and giving them to all beekeepers to help save the dying honey bees.  I due believe there is better mite resistantance than others but to the point of self efficentcy id have to agree with Mike its not out there.
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2012, 06:01:14 PM »

Has anyone studied or done field trials with the AMM or German Black Bee and the SHB?
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« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2012, 09:15:59 PM »

Dr. Russell works with a strain of AMM. He also periodically discusses their uses, such as ability to "survive." A very interesting strain, although clearly not the answer to most problems.
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2012, 10:14:20 PM »

BjornBee.......I am sorry but I can make the claim that I have a small number of bees that are totally mite resistant.  These bees are resistant too all the perils that befall all beekeepers but there numbers are small, only about 500 or so.  I will be glad to share them with you, then you can have some or your very own truely mite resistant bees.   delivery

Oh by the way......... they reside in a quart of 180 proof corn squeezings!
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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2012, 04:16:11 PM »

BjornBee.......I am sorry but I can make the claim that I have a small number of bees that are totally mite resistant.  These bees are resistant too all the perils that befall all beekeepers but there numbers are small, only about 500 or so.  I will be glad to share them with you, then you can have some or your very own truely mite resistant bees.   delivery

Oh by the way......... they reside in a quart of 180 proof corn squeezings!

 lau  I liked that!

After several years of banging my head, I give up. I'm changing over to a "consumer satisfaction action plan" as the consumer demands. You want mite resistant bees....I got them! You want German black bees.....I got them! We have bees from 163 different nations. You want magical smallcell bees that will make all your problems go away.....I got them. New for 2012...I even have CCD resistant bees. You want 150 pounds of honey per year....I got them bees. You want bees that do not swarm....I got that too! I've got bees that will respond to tanging, will not sting, and will not abscond. I got queens that will last for at least four years. And I got bees that can cleanse themselves of any and all pesticides and poison. I got bees that will not drink from your neighbors pool. I got bees that will send that bear a packing. You tell me your problem....I'll find a queen for whatever you need.

Whatever you want...anything at all....just ask. I'm committed to customer satisfaction. You want it..I got it. All designed to give you the warm fuzzy feeling. I honor all other competitors claims and aim to beat any and all other marketing. Let us do the work for you. Afterall, who wants to actually do anything but buy a solution in a bottle.  

Just let us know what you want, so we have enough time to change what label to put on the package.  rolleyes We have a label...I mean bee, for every desire.  rolleyes

Most beekeepers market one or two problem solving bees. Here at Bjorn Apiaries, we are the Brother Adam of the 21st century. We have collected bees from all the other breeders, bred them together, and are now producing the first super...oh wait, a few other call their bees "super".....let me see. Hmmm what to call them? I know....ApexApic Bees.  Wink  (apexapic bees.....copyright 2012 Bjorn Apiaries, all rights reserved)

Just have your credit card available when you call.  grin
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2012, 06:57:05 PM »

Troll !
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2012, 07:08:05 PM »

Troll !

I've been called that and much worse...... grin
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tefer2
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2012, 09:01:35 PM »

Didn't mean you !
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specialkayme
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2012, 09:15:51 PM »

Funny thing is, I actually liked the name Bjorn, lol. Although I would call it ApexEpic Bees.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2012, 09:23:06 PM »

Didn't mean you !

Can you make it about me?

Much more interesting that way. grin
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Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
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tefer2
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2012, 09:37:26 PM »

Mike, I'm not gonna be the one that starts it back up again. Nope not me !!!
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SEEYA
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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2012, 10:00:15 AM »

>>Where to buy German Black Bees

check Russell's Website -  they list German bees
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lenape13
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We survive together, or not at all!


« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2012, 10:13:53 AM »

How about normal bees and a can of black spray paint.  Heck, you could make them any color you want.... tongue
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AllenF
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« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2012, 09:29:33 PM »

Didn't mean you !

Can you make it about me?

Much more interesting that way. grin
Some people want all the attention.
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2012, 03:44:56 PM »

Ive got some more German AMM's ordered from Russells for hopefully a mid-late May delivery. Hopefully this time I wont screw up the queen introduction.
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specialkayme
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« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2012, 09:35:42 AM »

I look forward to hearing how "hot" they really are  grin
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2012, 12:07:34 PM »

They cant possibly be worse than a feral I have now. You cant even replace an entrance reducer without wearing full battle gear. They were my best honey producer last year so they can just stay pissy.
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SEEYA
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« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2012, 05:35:50 PM »

>>I look forward to hearing how "hot" they really are 

ME TOO! Please keep us posted
Keep them away from any Russians bees  evil
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GoodWeather
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« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2012, 02:07:28 AM »

I hope they aren't too bad. I have heard alot of people say they are crazy mean but others say not so much. They certainly are beautiful in the pics on Robert's website. Definitely let us know the result if you can. Theses bees appeal to me and I'm curious
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wayne
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« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2012, 10:10:16 PM »

  Somewhere. On one of these sites about 2 years back there was a link to a study of feral genetics that outlined just how much German was left in the wild population.
  If memory serves, and at my age that is a question, the level of German DNA was much higher in feral populations than in managed hives in the same area. This suggested that to survive in the wild for long required a higher level of German genes.
  Perhaps that German "heat" helped overcome the natural threats better.
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I was born about 100 years too early, or to late.
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