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Author Topic: Smal Cell Research????  (Read 13007 times)
TwT
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2005, 10:17:05 PM »

on the Lusby's being  AHB free, I read some where the other night that even lusby's admited having AHB genes in there bees , but I cant find it now been looking, there in the middle of the most populated AHB area in the USA and open mate there queens, come on guys if all this is true , there no way they dont have AHB crossed into there bee's. and about them testing there hives, they havent , all they need is to get there bee's tested and proven to be AHB free then they could sell there bee's but they havent. I'm going to keep looking for that i read the other night.  

JUST A LITTLE READING MATERIAL

http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/greyarea.htm
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2005, 07:57:56 AM »

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/beeanalysis.htm

I knew this was somewhere--the genetics of the Lubys' bees (or just LusBees).

This is testing done in 1986--a heck of a long time ago.
Quote
Your bees are quantitatively significant more towards Apis mellifera carnica und Apis mellifera cauca
sica. The Italian influence is very limited.


Given where the Lubbys are, and that they do open breeding, they must have some AHB influence in the genetic stock--but from what Dee and visitors to her apiaries have said, the hives aren't "hot" in any unusual way.
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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2005, 12:32:27 PM »

Dee has paid several labs both here and in Europe, to do DNA testing to try to clear this matter of AHB or not AHB up.  She has never been able to get a sraight answer from any of the labs.  As I remember, generally the answer is they are "caucasian similar".  But no one seems to want to elaborate on that.  Some labs said they were definitely not AHB, and some couldn't say.  Since a FABIS test is just measuring for small size, I think any small cell bee will fail that.

I do know she never wears gloves and she sometimes doesn't put on a veil.
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2005, 06:30:19 PM »

Since the Lusby's are open mating I'm sure there will be times when the virgin queens mate with africanized drones, but with them running 1000 hives, what are the odds?  And when a hive is determined to be hot, wouldn't you think that they would requeen it immediately, reinstating the chance for europian influance in the new queen?  

I personally do not believe that any North American Beekeeper in their right mind would breed their bees for AHB traits, just to overcome the varroa problem.  

Why is it some of you would believe this, and yet you don't believe what you read about Small Cell or FGMO?  Something about the way people think, just doesn't make sense to me.
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2005, 12:50:41 PM »

I would say the greater the numbers, the greater the odds.
I don't believe anyone thinks the Lusby's are breeding for AHB traits in their efforts to battle the mites.  What concerns some of us is that, it is working because of the AHB genetics, regardless of how they got there.  The evidence presented by M. Bush, yourself, and others seems to indicate that the genetics may not be as large a factor.  I hope you are right.  I have recently read that in some instances, colony collapse has taken up to 4 years from initial infestation.  
The mechanics of viral spread within the hive is something I have little knowledge of,  are mites the only delivery system for the virus?  I would think that once the virus becomes active in one bee, that single bee might carry a viral load capable of decimating many colonies.  Again, I don't know the mechanics, so the length of a bee’s life, the caste and tasks it performs,  the rate of reproduction within the colony, would all influence the time necessary for the virus to become virulent throughout.  This would seem to be supported somewhat by the number of colonies that fail in winter when brood rearing slows or stops and population begins dwindleing.
As I said, I'm trying half my starts this year on small cell.  It really hurts to think of retarding those colonys drawing comb when I(they) worked so hard getting those extra deeps drawn last year.  Oh well.  TIme will tell.
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2005, 01:03:04 PM »

here's a Question a Guest ask allen dick. He visited the Lusby's not long ago.


http://honeybeeworld.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=119&sid=1ad8b418e05978930ae22a61a5ef8ad7
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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2005, 11:16:36 AM »

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The mechanics of viral spread within the hive is something I have little knowledge of, are mites the only delivery system for the virus?

It is my understanding these virii are transmitted or caused by the varroa compromising the exoskeleton of the bee and directly introduced through the blood stream, the bees do not transmit blood to each other.
Quote
This would seem to be supported somewhat by the number of colonies that fail in winter when brood rearing slows or stops and population begins dwindleing.

The reason that colonies crash from a varroa infestation  in winter is greatly due in part to the lack of brood rearing and places for the mites to hide and reproduce, which means that the greater number of mites  will transfer easier throughout the colony cluster and directly come in contact and feed on the more mature bees,  allowing for the virii to overcome the cluster.
Quote
What concerns some of us is that, it is working because of the AHB genetics, regardless of how they got there.

I believe there is a diffirence between the AHB traits you speak of and hygenic behaviour.  The most prominant AHB trait is quite apparent in the aggressive nature of a colony.  I have not seen documentation or heard mention of AHB  passing on hygenic traits without the aggressive behaviour, which leads me to believe that AHB is not a factor in their success.  AHB traits are only passed on by the queens with assistance of course from AHB drones, if a colony is shown to have aggressive traits and the colony is requeened the traits end there, so I don't understand the concerns.
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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2005, 12:59:48 PM »

Quote from: Phoenix
I believe there is a diffirence between the AHB traits you speak of and hygenic behaviour.  The most prominant AHB trait is quite apparent in the aggressive nature of a colony.  I have not seen documentation or heard mention of AHB  passing on hygenic traits without the aggressive behaviour, which leads me to believe that AHB is not a factor in their success.  AHB traits are only passed on by the queens with assistance of course from AHB drones, if a colony is shown to have aggressive traits and the colony is requeened the traits end there, so I don't understand the concerns.


here's a little info on AHB having hygenetic behavior

http://biomserv.univ-lyon1.fr/txtdoc/THESES/VANDAM/AbstractVANR.html
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2005, 01:25:12 PM »

you know it aint that anyone (I believe) is against SC but like MB told me before it can take a few years to regress bee's to 4.9, Like myself I'm sure time will tell about the success or falure of SC but I still dont believe (myself) that ANY hive will survive after a length of time, it would take time and money to regress bee's and I havent seen any proof that any hive will survive, I have heard plenty about bee's doing good but are these bee's feral survivers or AHB genes or just a hive that has good hygenetic behavior that would survive with out regression. I still just wonder why the University Georgia Honey Bee Program or any other labs or colleges have not taking these studies serious. why is it a few people that have already made the investment (in SC) are the only one promoting this. I hope that the SC people have good luck and one day show me I have been hard headed for no reason but until then guest i'll sit back and watch, but in the mean time, I'm going to go the genetic or hygenetic behavior route and see what happens.
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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2005, 01:52:29 PM »

Once again that page; http://biomserv.univ-lyon1.fr/txtdoc/THESES/VANDAM/AbstractVANR.html
didn't mention anything about cell size. If the AHB was on their natural comb, and the EHB was on the large comb, then yes the mites are more attracted to the larger brood cells. This fact has been mentioned in many researches posted on this forum.

It has been mentioned something to this affect, "Follow the Money." That will explain why reasearch isn't done on small cell.

Regression doesn't have to take many many years. Since there are small cell beekeepers out there now perhaps one can obtain drawn small cell combs from somewhere. A large cell queen will lay in SC and there you have it.

Why do you assume going small cell is going to cost any more than staying on large cell? Ofcourse as I am just starting out I guess going small cell is going to be cheaper for me than going the other way. I don't have to buy all the chemicals and oils and whatever else. Plus I am catching my bees, cost is only my time. Other equipment is going to be the same cost.

I guess if everything turns out alright for me however, everyone will say the same is true for me as is being said about the Lusbys. My climate is drier. Hotter. AHB. But keep in mind I captured my first feral hive not even using smoke. Did use power saw to cut through wall. These girls barely bothered to even look at me. So would they have any AHB tendencies?
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« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2005, 02:00:57 PM »

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here's a Question a Guest ask allen dick. He visited the Lusby's not long ago.

Once again your just passing on someone elses speculation.  I see that speculation gets through that hard head of yours quicker than the information and proof gathered by someone thinking outside the box.  I understand your being hesitant to change, but I don't understand your passing on supposition with no proof.
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« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2005, 02:45:16 PM »

Quote from: Phoenix
Quote
here's a Question a Guest ask allen dick. He visited the Lusby's not long ago.

Once again your just passing on someone elses speculation.  I see that speculation gets through that hard head of yours quicker than the information and proof gathered by someone thinking outside the box.  I understand your being hesitant to change, but I don't understand your passing on supposition with no proof.


so I guest you went and took samples to prove the lusby's are not carrying AHB genetics ha? dont sit there telling me that I go on speculation when you dont know what your talking about anyway or know anything about there bee's. your going by hear-say yourself, show me some proof that there bee's are not carrying AHB genetics or just show me proof of your samples (test) Phoenix, and then you can say im talking on speculations. you know if they open mate in the highest populated area of AHB in the USA then theres a almost certain chance they will have AHB  unless the AI there queens and they don't. the goverment has sayed there is so much AHB in arizona that every bee hive in the state is considered AHB, now I dont believe this but I dont see having 1000 hives and not having AHB on open breeding. especially when allen dick said they get ferals hives from all over and this man has been there and knows the lusby's.  

and jerry, you are getting a good start on your small cell starting with survivors, what we're talking about is regressing bee's that are not survivors, bee's that need treatment to live. and if you read it jerry it does say hygenetic behavior not small cell , thats what the study was about. mayby the use starter strips like MB says or mayby they use foundation,  if they did foundation in this test they used hives like we do (standard foundation)not small cell foundation. would small cell bee's draw out standard foundation smaller or just draw out regular sized foundation? MB can answer that one .

How many times I have to say it , I hope SC will be the answer but for now I don't think it is the sole reason the bee's survive. but we will see?

 The main reason I have a hard time believing small cell is the only answer is from what i have seen , MB told me before that bee's can and will regress naturally, and if bee's start to regress and then swarm then regress again and again , WHY DID THE WILD POPULATION GET WHIPED OUT THE LAST 10 TO 15 YEARS. over 100 years of ferals are gone, is it that these feral bee's didnt naturally regress or did they not have the hygenetic behavior to live? or like jerry brought up before , was it a desease that killed the bee's and not varroa mites or tracheal mites?
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« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2005, 12:13:21 AM »

here you go jerry some good reading, lots of info on AHB, up to 2004.
there's a man in this page that says he doesn't believe AHB survive the varroa using hygenetic behavior, but he is trying to find out how they do it.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar04/bees0304.htm
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« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2005, 04:35:28 AM »

I don't know what you read into that article. Or what you expected me to read into it. Does this mean that R. Weaver sells Africanized bees? Because looking at the map that area is covered in AHB.
Perhaps another reason for AHB taking over EHB is larger drones fly slower. Wonder what the outcome would be if all the bees started out the same size. Perhaps the AHB couldn't take over EHB hives. Perhaps they couldn't mate and mature faster than EHB.

 Then let's get to this part;

What's Buzzing with Africanized Honey Bees?
Eischen maintains an apiary in a remote part of southern Texas. "Maintains" may not be the right term, because he simply leaves hive boxes out and lets the bees fend for themselves year after year. All the honey bees in the apiary have long since been Africanized.

Jerrymac;
Did these boxes have foundation in them? Where there EHB in the boxes? Did the AHB build their own from scratch?

What's Buzzing with Africanized Honey Bees?
His AHBs, which are never treated, have a slightly better survival rate against Varroa mites. But that rate varies dramatically.

Jerrymac;
Is this because of the cell size used and/or mixing with EHB?

What's Buzzing with Africanized Honey Bees?
"I've looked at about 40 colonies. Some have very few mites, and others are loaded," Eischen says. "But if these had been EHB colonies without treatment, they all would have died long ago."

Jerrymac;
The first part caused by cell size? And second part is just supposition upon Eischen's part. How does he know they would have died?

What's Buzzing with Africanized Honey Bees?
He is trying to isolate which mechanism provides the protection from Varroa mites. He has already ruled out hygienic behavior—the time it takes worker bees to clean out mites. But if he determines what AHBs do differently, it might be possible to breed that desirable trait into EHBs.

Jerrymac;
Now I wonder what AHB do differently? Perhaps not what they do but what man does/doesn't do.
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« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2005, 01:27:49 PM »

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what we're talking about is regressing bee's that are not survivors, bee's that need treatment to live. and if you read it jerry it does say hygenetic behavior not small cell


From my experience any bees put on small cell are much more hygenic.  I can point you to many small cell beekeepers and don't know of any who haven't observed the same behaviors.

Quote
would small cell bee's draw out standard foundation smaller or just draw out regular sized foundation? MB can answer that one .


Bees tend to follow the pattern on the foundation, but will rework it if they really can't handle it.  Small cell bees will draw large cell foundation.  They will probably cheat some and you'll end up with maybe 5.3mm or so, but basically it will be large cell comb.

Quote
The main reason I have a hard time believing small cell is the only answer is from what i have seen , MB told me before that bee's can and will regress naturally, and if bee's start to regress and then swarm then regress again and again , WHY DID THE WILD POPULATION GET WHIPED OUT THE LAST 10 TO 15 YEARS. over 100 years of ferals are gone


But if they are all gone where are we finding them?  I'm finding them.

I think one issue is that having a stable system where the mites don't reproduce enough to cause a problem is one thing.  Being able to handle the influx of mites from the thousands of domestic hives crashing around them, is another thing altogether.

Also, a swarm from a large cell hive will build about 5.1mm and they will live on that from then on.  It will take a decade or more to raise enough brood with enough cocoons to regress that.  They will not rebuild it unless it is damaged.  Those bees won't survive the mites.  A swarm from that 5.1mm swarm may build 4.9 (or a little bigger) and that will probably be enough size to stabalize the mite population from withinn.  But then there are the hives crashing without.  Then we add a lot of other viruses and diseases that weren't here before all at once.

Do I think genetics is part of the key to finding bees that will survive?  Of course.  But when you can take AHB that are suviving the mites on small cell comb and put them on large cell and they crash, don't you think that's a good indication that you put your bees at a grave disadvantage on large cell comb?

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm
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« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2005, 04:51:54 PM »

Amen...

I couldn't remember where I found that documentation.  Thanks.
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« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2005, 09:39:58 PM »

Quote from: Michael Bush



now thats the kind of research I been wanting to see , thanks MB
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« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2005, 10:12:26 PM »

TwT,

I thought that had been posted on here a couple of times.
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« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2005, 10:15:42 PM »

Yep, it was posted by the Finman himself.

http://beemaster.com/beebbs/viewtopic.php?t=1766
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« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2005, 10:18:11 PM »

if it was posted I never read it , my fault. but it is good reading.
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