Foundationless frames

[Shawn]

Does anyone have a photo of a foundationless frame with starter strips as an example for a newbee? I think it would be great for a photo due to I have seen post of people asking questions on what kind of starter strips, how are they attached, and so on.

[oldenglish]

Check out this link, it includes instructions on two types of setup and photos.

http://www.nwdba.org/foundationless.html

[Robo]

Here are some before and after pictures of what I do






BTW,  I use coraplast starter strips and wire my frames.

[ArmucheeBee]

So if you use popsicle sticks there is no point in having one pointing down-vertical?  you can just glue them in horizontal with the top bar so that about 1/2 inch is showing all the way across the bar?

[Shawn]

Wow. That helped a bunch. Great photos. Hopefulyl more people will post their frames and how they do it.

[Robo]

So if you use popsicle sticks there is no point in having one pointing down-vertical?  you can just glue them in horizontal with the top bar so that about 1/2 inch is showing all the way across the bar?

I never used Popsicle sticks (too much work), but there is no need to put one vertical.

[oldenglish]

I like just using the wedge from the top bar, that way I dont need to buy anything else. That is also another reason I dont use foundation starter strips.
I did enjoy filling the slot with wax but it does take a little longer and I had to buy the wax as I dont have any yet.
After assembling 80 frames I think I may just use the wedge bar as it was the easiest and cheapest. the one thing I changed was not to glue as is shown but to just staple the bar.

[kathyp]

i have tons of foundation from some bulk buys.  i cut it in strips with a pizza cutter and glue it in with wax.  i use the wax because i have so much and it's easy to do.  a tube made for the job, or an old glass syringe will do. 

[Shawn]

So the only thing you are doing is showing the bees where to start their comb. The starter strip is in the center so that they build from both sides per frame.

[Robo]

Correct, just give them a guide where you want the center of the comb to be.  Make sure the hive is level too, otherwise the comb won't stay centered in the frame as they build down.

[Michael Bush]

>So the only thing you are doing is showing the bees where to start their comb. The starter strip is in the center so that they build from both sides per frame.

Exactly.  What I do depends on what I have.  If you're buying frames just to do this, the simplest is to buy the wedge top, break out the wedge, turn it 90 degrees and nail it back in.  A little glue wouldn't hurt.  if you already HAVE a grooved frame, anything in the groove that sticks down about 1/4" or so will work great.  If it already has comb in it, I just cut the comb out and leave a row of cells around the outside edge.

[SlickMick]

Do you guys use wire in your frames to help with extraction? Or do  you just wait until the comb is attached on all sides?

[Robo]

I wire mine, not only for extraction,  but it makes handling the frames safer as well.   Once the comb encompasses the first wire,  the frame can be handled just like a frame of foundation.   You can wait for them to attach the comb to the sides and bottom,  but sometimes it takes quite a while.

[Cindi]

I asked my Husband to make some starter strip frames from the Pierco plastic frames that I have.  It was quite a gruelling job (until he found out how to do it better), but he cut out the plastic foundation, leaving the little strip of plastic along the top.  The bees draw this out well.  I never realized how well it worked until I was cutting out the comb this year.  It is hard to actually tell a frame that has no foundation when I looked at it.  Beautiful day in this great life, great health, love this life.  Cindi

[Shawn]

So if I took some of the plastic frames I got with the starter kit and cut out the "foundation" area except for a row at the top that would work. I know they are the larger cell and I was trying to get to the small cell size. WOuld the bees just attach to the top or would they start building on the plastic cell that is on the top row? This is only for the eequipment that I have now. All other equipment will be foundationless, I think 

[Robo]

Shawn,

Size of the cells on the starter strip have no bearing on the size of the cells the bees will build on the new comb.  This is a misconception many people have and they go out and by small cell foundation for their foundationless frame starter strips.  Yes they will draw the first couple cells to match the starter strip, but will then transition to the size they want.   If it were as easy as giving them a cell size and they would just continue with it,  regression would be just one step.  Unfortunately this is not the case.

So yes, go ahead and cut those plastic frames if you want, they will build comb the same as if you gave the small cell starter strips, popsicle sticks, etc...

[Shawn]

OK I think I figured it out. I posted all the drama in the Swarm Removal area and this is what I ended up with. Becuase of all the mess I cut one of the plastic frames out and wired some of their brood comb in.

Here is what I started with:



After cutting the frame:





Here is the comb wired to the frame and by no means am I trying to say this is what it should look like:





While tying the comb to the frmae I thought I had got off all the bees. WRONG! I put my hand under the comb to help support while lifting it up and I got this instant burning pain in my ring finger. I put the frame down and looked. I saw a little bee lying on her back waving but not with all hands  . It now looks like I have an elephant finger 

[Robo]

Looks good. Your a better wire upper than me   I would have had those nice pieces of comb all bent and broken by the time I have them wired in.  Nice work....

rob..

[Shawn]

Thanks. I still had a lot of stuff from when I was doing Taxidermy  so I used the small guage wire to tie it up. I was going to try to do it better but after I got stung it was hard for me to use my left hand. 

[Michael Bush]

If you read all of the ABC XYZ of Bee Culture the subject of wiring has ALWAYS been how to keep the foundation from sagging until it was drawn.  It has NEVER been that it was needed in order to extract.