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Author Topic: golfpsycho  (Read 5763 times)
Jerrymac
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« on: February 17, 2005, 08:32:03 AM »

You asked about M. Bush. Here is a link to his page. Don't think it says how long he has been doing it however;


http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/bush_bees.htm

As far as my bees. I have only had bees at my place for about 36 hrs now. You got to give me a chance Cheesy  

Now the Lusbys have been doing the Small cell for a while. I think they started regressing about 1980. This year they should be completely back up to 1000 hives. Do a search on Dee Lusby.
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2005, 09:19:01 AM »

I've read Michaels page. Some of Dee Lusby's writing as well.  I think at least the possibility exists that the Lusbys have tapped into the AHB in their area.    I have been following many of MB's posts, on that "other board", along with many of the other small cell advocates.  I was very interested in small cell, and I'm trying some of it myself.  However, when the claims of those people start to get... umm... well.... to good to be true, I start worrying about snake oil salesmen.  I'm sure you have seen some of those posts.  They winter better, work harder, and in colder weather,  they fly faster, further, and higher.  stop trains and leap tall buildings in a single bound.... THEY'RE SUPERBEES!!!  bahahahahahaha
I just keep getting stuck on the feral bee population being hit just as hard as the managed colonies were, and suddenly "natural" comb being the silver bullet.
But I hope they are right.  I would much prefer the labor of regressing to the contnued use of chems.
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Robo
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2005, 11:09:15 AM »

Quote from: golfpsycho

I just keep getting stuck on the feral bee population being hit just as hard as the managed colonies were, and suddenly "natural" comb being the silver bullet.


Don't forget that it is estimated that only 20% of swarms survive thru their first winter.  Also remember that domesticated swarms will take  1 or 2 regressions (child swarms) to get to a "natural" comb size.

So it can easily be seen that if domesticated bees (which outnumbered natural comb size bees)  where greatly reduced by mites,  it could also be devistating to feral colony populatiion.

I agree with you,  would love to see small cell be the answer,  but it needs more time to be proven for the long term.
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TwT
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2005, 04:07:21 PM »

sorry fellows, but i have had many talks on the other board with MB and i just do not believe you can regress any hive of bee's and they survive. if i get a hive that will die without treatment and regress them, after everything the small cell guys have wrote and said , I still dont see this hive surviving with out some kind of mite resistant behavior.

maybe the mites just can't reproduce at all with small cell and cant survive the time with shorter brood time.

the only way I will believe in small cell is when someone gets 50 hives of nice, gentle, Italians that wouldn't survive without treatment and regress them then take the treatments away when there regressed then see how mant will live for a year. MB says he have low lose's colonies a year but he has also said most if not all his bee's where feral hives. I would call them survivers, they allready survived with out regression,  now i would espect to have good results going this route. just my 2 cents

 Signed The Anti-Small cell  Hard-Head  wink
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2005, 04:28:46 PM »

Actually, that is part of the claims being made last time I looked in.  Several people were describing more pronounced grooming behavior, more uncapping and removal of infested brood cells.  Kinda goes with that superbee thing... x-ray vision.. bahahahahahahaha...
Sorry, I know this is serious business.  And in attempt to stay focused, I now offer this small bottle of medicine, promising improvement in cases of rhuematism, obesity,  high blood pressure, high cholesterol, various cardiac ailments, shingles, disorders of the skin, improved libido, just to name a few.  Disregard that it tastes like whiskey!!!   bahahahahahaha

OOPS!  did it again.
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TwT
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2005, 04:41:54 PM »

Quote from: golfpsycho
Actually, that is part of the claims being made last time I looked in.  Several people were describing more pronounced grooming behavior, more uncapping and removal of infested brood cells.  Kinda goes with that superbee thing... x-ray vision.. bahahahahahahaha...
Sorry, I know this is serious business.  And in attempt to stay focused, I now offer this small bottle of medicine, promising improvement in cases of rhuematism, obesity,  high blood pressure, high cholesterol, various cardiac ailments, shingles, disorders of the skin, improved libido, just to name a few.  Disregard that it tastes like whiskey!!!   bahahahahahaha

OOPS!  did it again.


AS GOLF WOULD SAY !!!!!!

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2005, 06:35:59 PM »

Not so sure we disagree,  just perhaps some are more hopefully optimistic than others.   I don't believe you have any scientific data to back up your skepticism.  Just because there is no scientificdata to support does not mean it is not promising.  I don't believe there is anyone here saying it is the answer at this point,  but I do believe there are people that believe there exists a potential.

We can continue to debate the merits, but only time and experience will tell.  It is easy to write off the Lusby's success to AHB because others inabilities to replicate their success,  but there are many variables involved.  Could it be a combination of small cell and hot/dry climate?  Or some other combinations?  I am not trying to suggest anything, just trying to make the point that there are many things that in combination could lead to successful un-medicated mite control.

I know there are many that believe and have had great success with mineral oil.  I tried many methods for 5 years and did not have success.  Does this mean mineral oil does not work?  Not at all,  just that there are "other" conditions that play a part.

Just like anything else,  it will take time and experience to hone our skills on efficient mite control.  

So I'm not so eager to write off small cell or try to discourage people from trying it  and learning more about it.  I'm also not running out and buying all small cell bees /foundation and throwing out my oxalic acid either.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2005, 07:19:04 PM »

Here is a chunck of the boozed bee's hive;


click for larger image


All this brown comb measurers mostly 4.9 some as low as 4.8

Now I have some white comb that I figure they stored honey in that is 5.3 and 5.1, also there is some with a depth of the comb one inch. The brown combs depth is 3/8ths inch

More comb can be seen here;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/DSC02220.jpg
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2005, 07:41:50 PM »

Robo.. I think I have made it clear I support everyones efforts to keep the mites in check.  However, my previous post was an attempt at humor.  I thought I made that clear, but apparently not.  Hopefully, those with the ability to laugh, took the opportunity to do so.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Lusby's have introduced AHB genetics into their bees.  I don't have access to a DNA lab, or the education to make the tests, even if I did.  I'm sure the part where Dee Lusby volunteers to have her bees tested is just something I haven't read yet.

I have stated in several posts that I am trying small cell.  Maybe the low humidity, high desert heat will combine to make it effective here.  I'm not doing it half assed, or with an opinion already formed about it's application.  By the same token, I have had hot bees, and while a defensive colony is one thing, an aggresive one is something completely different.  I'd rather spend the day on the links,  than try to manage bees that will chase me a quarter of a mile.  (unless it's seven feet tall with six inch fangs.. I don't like to run)

Skeptisim is healthy, however gulibility is much more damaging.  Even though 90% of what you read might be true, it's probably safer to believe 10% and research what you can through other sources.  This is especially important since the internet became "public domain"  and anyone with a library card has the ability to post an opinion.  (myself included)

All that said, I hope whatever system you are using for mite control is successful, that your bees evolve to manage the mites, and everyone makes lots of honey this year.

I will say, my bees were in the blazing sun all summer, (and untreated) and when I walked outside today, I gave them each a kick.... (34 degrees around noon)  each of them growled at me to let me know they didn't appreciate it.
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2005, 08:11:18 PM »

You were perfectly clear.

I guess I was not wink

My repsonse was more towards TwT's statement on us disagreeing, and the fact that I DON'T neccessarily believe we are.

I totally agree with you on this issue.  I believe we should proceed cautiously with a certain amount of  both skepticism and optimism.  I have seen too many people loose bees because some method fit their desire and therfore they wanted it to work and convinced themself it work, when it really didn't.  Trust me,  I was one of them when I first got involved with mineral oil.  There were so many people that wanted that to be the answer,  anybody that had results elsewise was chastized.

Lusby's aren't the only ones with small cell, just perhaps the biggest and the best known.

My point was if someone wants to say there is no merit,  they can always find some reason to claim it is no good. (Lusby's have AHB, Micheal Bush has sevivor bees, etc, etc)
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2005, 08:46:13 PM »

Doesn't look like you misread it.. more like I did.  Oh well.. a little banter is stimulating and good for the forum.

You bring up something very interesting to me Robo.  I'm still trying to figure out survivor bees/feral bees.  I think its'darned hard to decipher how long a colony of bees has been in the wild.  We all know bees like to move into place previously occupied by other bees.  Without specific monitoring, I think it's very hard to determine survivors, replacements, and what constitutes a feral bee?  One season?  2, 5???  I kind of lean towards the old german blacks that were around when I think of the feral bees.  The EHB was crowding them pretty hard 30 years ago, but you occasionally saw a few working some blooms here and there.   Now.. you just don't see them.  At least I don't.  I saw someone recently posted that a prof from Cornell was going to talk about the feral bees in the Arnot Forest.  Have you heard of this?  I'm very interested in what they have to say.  I'm interested in their heritage.  Are they german black bees??  caucasions?  Escaped italians?
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2005, 09:03:46 PM »

I agree, nothing wrong with bantering.  In fact, when I'm convinced small cell is not viable, I'll buy TwT a real beer.  Not that moose pee that Jerrymac feeds his bees cheesy

I have not heard about the Arnot forest feral bee talk you mentioned,  but it does sound very interesting.  

To be honest,  I don't remember ever seeing any dark bees in the wild around here.  My dad talks about some older German beekeepers he use to know that raised them.  But up until a few years ago,  everyone was convinced that the Italians were the best and that is all I can ever remember my dad having when I was growing up.

I would be interested in hearing from folks that have purchased "small cell" bees from Ohio.  I believe they have been selling them for at least a couple of years now.   I believe Lesli has a couple packages coming this year, so that should be interesting.
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TwT
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2005, 09:08:43 PM »

I guest I could have worded my post differently but if small cell could be the answer then I would go 100% small cell but don't get me wrong , I'm not condeming small cell, I would just like to hear some evidence on it working on any hive of bee's, all I have heard (like you said) "its the best thing I ever seen or heard about", all I want is proof not hear-say, has any research labs,USDA, or colleges tryed small cell, I'm sure they heard about it, I never see any info on the subject. If small cell is works so good then why is the US research labs and colleges working on hygenic behavior, Russian and SMR bee's than small cell. Like yall said I hope they find away to fix the honey-bee problems, I would like to hear some results for people in this forum that is going to regress bee's that are not feral or regressed already (i would consider these already survivers), just a good ole "would normally die without chemical hive of bee's".
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Robo
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2005, 09:28:09 PM »

Only took us 12 posts to realize we where all saying the same thing.

DOOOOAAAAAAHHHHH  


That's why me like pictures.......
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2005, 09:33:37 PM »

It gets frustrating when things are out of our control or sphere of influence.  The things that make beekeeping possible, are that bees will do the same things 90% of the time given particular stimulaie.  The mites are a wild card, and have been one for 20 years.  And we still don't seem to have a handle on them.  The other thing about beekeeping that makes things controversial, is that bees are successful, much of the time, without our help, or hinderance as the case may be.  But we each like to crow about our success, and claim it was our cross circuiting to "B" that made it all possible.  Of course, the reality is that the bees were successful in spite of us! bahahahahahahahaha

I have hope for our future... and am making a small jump in numbers this year.
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2005, 09:34:28 PM »

But think of all the fun we would have missed!!!  bahahahahahahahahah
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TwT
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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2005, 10:12:42 PM »

AH-MEN
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Lesli
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« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2005, 06:05:19 AM »

Hey Guys,
I'm the one who's going to the talk this Sunday on feral bees in Arnot Forest. I'm interested because Tom Seeley is A. a real scientist Smiley and B. did surveys before and after mites came into the pictures.

Now, I'm not being a snob about the "real scientist" thing, but I'm assuming that the scientific method is second nature to him, so his results will be documented, etc. In other words, it ain't just little ol' me wandering around looking for bees.

And yes, I have no fewer than 5 small cell packages coming in April. They cost the same as LC, and I have the foundation, so I decided it's worth a try. I bought them from Buckeye in Ohio, same place I got my two nucs last year. I was pretty happy with those. Hived in late June, one managed to to produce 40 lbs of extra honey... before swarming. Smiley The swarming was my error. So I had a good first year with Buckeye, and I figured I'd stick with them.  Also, they seem to be a small, family-run business, and I like supporting those (not that there's a Wal-Mart of package bees out there, that I know of, but ...).
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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2005, 06:32:51 AM »

You surely love to talk BS Your mouth will grow champs.

Why don't you do something more stupid and go to ski over medows.

Your grey brain cells are tilted a long time ago. They need fresh air!

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golfpsycho
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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2005, 09:23:54 AM »

It's true.  Sometimes I take the long route to the point.  But I get there eventually, and have fun along the way.  I think I have the full arsenal ready though.  Got the small cell, new packages to shake onto it,  and the finmans terrarium heaters to grow them up fast.  Got the oxalic for the existing colonys and the crack pipe contraption to vaporize it.  Got my control colony with no treatments since I got them.(they are doing fine with no sign of PMS)  We gonna have some fun this year with several trials going at once.  Might even make some honey
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