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Author Topic: Facts {and Theories} about trap outs  (Read 13626 times)
iddee
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« on: March 02, 2009, 07:20:43 PM »

This is an intermediate post with a few ideas about trap outs. It will be followed by a post on checking and concluding a trap out sometime later.

Fact....If one worker finds a way back in, she will lead the rest to
that entrance. After that, they will continue to look for other
entrances. It is nearly impossible to seal all entrances if it isn't
done with the initial set up.

Theory....I think the queen reacts as if there is a dearth when the
foragers stop bringing in pollen and nectar. She quits laying.
Therefore, my belief is that the last egg is laid within a week of the
trap being set. That leaves a total of 4 weeks from set up, until the
last worker emerges. As with everything about bees, this can vary.

I have never seen a hive starve to death in the summer. I have seen
them use up all stores in a dearth in the summer and abscond.
Therefore, when a trap out runs out of stores, the queen and the
remaining bees will abscond. The majority of the time she will pass
the catch box and land on a bush in the area. From there, it is like a
swarm. If you find her in time, they can be hived. If not, they follow
the scouts.

A trap on a newly arrived swarm will many times leave within the first
2 or 3 days. They have no brood, no stores, and no reason to stay in
their new home. Many of these queens will take the catch box, many
will not. A colony that has been established for quite some time will
almost always leave the area, leaving only the bees that have taken up
in the catch box prior to the departure.

I have been told by beeks in heavy SHB areas that the SHB will
devastate a colony before the trap out can be completed.If you have a
problem with SHB in your area, you may want to do the trapouts in
early spring before the SHB get strong.   
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asprince
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 07:36:04 PM »

Interesting. Do you base your theory on what you feel or experience? It makes since to me.

Steve
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iddee
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 10:40:39 AM »

I base it on conclusions I have come to after many trap outs. I have never torn into a wall after one week of trapping in order to prove it. The outcome of many trap outs seem to verify it, and I haven't seen anything to dispute it.

It is only theory, tho.
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G3farms
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 06:08:11 PM »

what if you built a screen type cage and put it on the end of the funnel after most of the worker bees have left, and when the queen and remaining few bees abscond then they too would be caught in the screen cage. Then the funnel could be removed and the robbing could begin. Does that make any sense?? I know it would be a little more time consuming to check on them but you could catch the queen also.

Just thinking out loud.

G3

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iddee
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 08:57:38 PM »

This whole trap out thing is still in infancy. I'm sure there will be a lot of improvements as others try different ideas. Give it a try and let us know how it works.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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wayne
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 09:30:00 PM »

   I have seen references to the cone trap going back at least a generation. And over that time the goal has never been to get the queen.
   The main goal is almost always to remove the bees from their current location. The trap is used only because a cutout isn't possible. Almost every effort is with a bait hive with brood and eggs, basically a weak split from another hive, and the hope that the trapped out bees will become the workers for said hive.
   Some have placed the cone very near, or even in, the entrance to the bait hive. Some are testing and have tested ways to guide the queen into the bait hive where it is hoped she will halt her effort to abscond.
   The trick I think is in designing a simple easy to use setup that will bring about the absconding that is the goal, and yet hold the queen in place until she accepts the new home.
   I find it interesting that the time period of 2 weeks is so often mentioned in doing a trap out. When one considers that about 4 weeks is needed to hatch the existing brood.
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Luckyparrot
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 12:18:56 AM »

Iddee, thanks for the facts. I want to trap out a colony from a tree, but did have the gut to do so because I thought I'll kill all broods and eggs. The people that live near the tree had called the city and many bees experts, but none of them can help. I will do it this weekend and will update you.   
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Luckyparrot
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 12:33:51 AM »

Iddee, when you found out there are more than one queen cell in a trap out box, what do you normally do with them, to prevent that box from swarming? 
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iddee
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2009, 07:55:16 PM »

That box won't swarm. The first queen out will kill all the rest.

If you get there before the first one comes out and you have 7 or more frames of bees, you can remove that box, cutout a queen cell or two, install it in a second box, and start your second hive with cells instead of eggs.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Luckyparrot
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2009, 11:12:01 AM »

Thanks, Iddee. I thought I can do it this weekend, using the box that I built it myself. But I just found a website that sells boxes cheaper than built-it-myself boxes. I don't know if you know this one yet. It calls mannlakeltd.com  Hopefully it will arrive soon.
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Luckyparrot
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2009, 01:01:26 AM »

Iddee, I finally did it. http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Trapout1#
As you can see from the pictures, the bees are just hanging on the wall, refusing to go inside the box. After about 3hrs, they finally went inside when I smoked them.  I'm little bit concerned about the eggs and broods. How many hrs can they survive without the full attention of nurses?   Oh, you said that after I find queen cells, I can cut out one or two and put in the second box. But how do I cut the cell without damaging it? Since I'm using plastic frames and foundation, it's just impossible to cut through. Thanks
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iddee
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2009, 09:56:20 AM »

The eggs should be fine. They are much tougher than larva. If the larva was damaged, they will just wait for the eggs to hatch. That's why I stress using eggs.

As for the cell cutting, I have never found plastic in a feral hive, so I have never put plastic in a managed hive. You are on your own there.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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The Bix
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 08:30:18 AM »

So I'm about to put together my first trap out and I'm unclear about a few things.  Do ALL the bees, including the ones in the catch box bail out with her in a swarm if she passes the catch box?  Or is it just the bees that remain with her?
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The Bix
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 09:51:03 AM »

I was speaking of the queen of course in the above post.
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iddee
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 10:05:24 AM »

The bees become residents of the catch box and no longer belong to the house colony after 3 days. Any bees that have been in the hive 3 days or more will stay there. The bees leaving the house with the queen will go with her. The bees that have been out 1 or 2 days is questionable.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Luckyparrot
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 03:03:35 AM »

"The bees that have been out 1 or 2 days is questionable" Iddee, no wonder the bees in my catch box seemed less than the last time I checked, which was 2 days ago.  Yes, the bees managed to chew through the hard paperboard. I had to use calking o fill up the hole. I should have used plywood as you suggested. 
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Luckyparrot
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2009, 02:35:04 AM »

Iddee, there was no queen cell after 9 days. This is what the frame looked like . http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Noqueen#5361533862107507602
 After that I put in another frame completely filled with eggs and broods. http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Newframe#5361536848685535794
 And it has been 3 days since. So today I opened the box to check for queen cell, but still, there is none.
 I'm using the Lang frame and foundation on both time. May be the bees had no room to build queen cell on Rite-Cell? Do I need a frame with no plastic foundation for bees to make queen cell? Thanks
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iddee
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2009, 08:24:36 AM »

I have never used plastic of any kind in a hive, so I can't help you on that question. Maybe someone else has raised emergency queens on plastic and will step in here.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2009, 08:32:44 AM »

Bees will raise emergency queens with plastic foundation.   They float the larvae out to the front of the comb when making emergency queens,  so foundation type is irrelevant.
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Luckyparrot
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2009, 01:28:05 AM »

 Robo, you're right. I checked again today and the bees did build 7-8 queen cells. Last time  I didn't see it, because I was checking the box too soon, only 3 days later after putting in the frame with broods and eggs. Anyway, I have another dilemma. The Iddee cone is clogged because there are so much dead bees and broods inside it. And, strangely, all of them are drones. Should I drill another hole to place another cone or should I cut the hole of the existing cone bigger so that bees can carry out dead bees ? Thanks !
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