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Author Topic: question for queen rearers  (Read 6041 times)
danno
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« on: March 02, 2009, 08:16:58 AM »

I am going to raise a few queens this summer.  I have a Jenter kit from bushy mountain and this weekend built a cloakeing broard.  My question is when I remove the floor and make the colony queen right to finish cells wont they try to swarm when these are capped
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danno
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2009, 09:05:14 AM »

Maybe this was just a dumb question.  I cant find any reference to this so I'm just assuming its not a problem. Maybe these cells are just considered supercedure cells.  Half the colony thinks they are queenless.   Half think they are queen right.  Then the next day, their are all queen right.  Are they just confussed as I am sometimes
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 09:30:13 AM »

Have you read Micheal bush's site on the cloake board??   I would comment but I don't have any real answers for you other than what I have read.    My understanding is that you  remove these sells around the capping date,  (day 8-13 range)   and then those cells  will be placed in nucs with a frame or two of nurse bees  (they refer to these as mateing nucs)   then give her  time to get bred  and place her where you want.....

I just order 12 cyprus nuc boxes myself to start queen raising this year also.   I am also looking at a Jenter kit,  but strongly  planning on useing Mel Dissolken system instead.  seems a lot simpler to me,  the downside being I am not sure how to remove the queen cells  when they are on plastic fondation.  on the ther hand I am wondering if that plastic isn't  a perfect handle,  and easier to use than queen cups....
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 09:37:13 AM »

BTW  the cyprus nucs  are  from rossman,  they have a great setup for 4 nucs with all the frames covers and a stand for 100..  or 110 for the samesetup with deep frames,  not sure I am allowed to post this,  but since i AM NOT SELLING THEM ITS OKAY i THINK
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danno
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 10:24:43 AM »

  My understanding is that you  remove these sells around the capping date, 


No this is not true.  They need to be incubater through the capper stage and there would be alot of danger of damaging them at that stage. They are removed when ripe a day or so before they hatch or hair roller cages installed and allowed to hatch.
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gmcharlie
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 12:25:58 PM »

Hmmmm  you think one of the guys with a lot of experince would chime in here.....
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 12:59:17 PM »

I use a Cloake Board and move the capped cells to the mating nucs 2 days before they hatch.

I've never had a queen-right cell finisher swarm.  You can't cause a queen-right hive to swarm by simply putting in queen cells.

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/queen-rearing/
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danno
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2009, 01:05:44 PM »

thanks Rob
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BjornBee
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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2009, 01:20:04 PM »

How you doing Charlie....  Wink

I do not use the jenter system, or a cloake board, or any of the systems mentioned. I am old school from the sense that I graft into wax cell, that are placed into wooden cell cups. I graft with a Chinese bamboo grafter. About as basic as it gets. I get all my supplies from Kelley's, and it way cheaper than the queen systems on the market.

Most of the systems sold on the market, are really systems designed to take the grafting out of the mix. It is the one thing so many have problems with, but also one of the easiest things to do once you learn how.

I graft, so I can control the exact date I pull cells, when to have the breeding nucs ready, when I can pull queens out and sell to customers, and a host of other things. Some of the other systems are designed for the queen to lay into cells, and then you find out a couple days later, that she did not do that. And many times, if you add up the number of steps, its supposed to be easier, but it really is no easier than just grafting into a hive using a cell frame. But each product out there markets based on ease and convenience, but it's not. It just takes out grafting, that's all. The part about moving cells, and how many times you get into the hive really does not change.

For what it's worth, this is what I do.....I remove a queen from a strong well fed colony. I wait 2-3 days, then remove any queen cells started. I collect the royal jelly from those cells, and use their own royal jelly to graft right back into the same colony. one of two things must happen after day 10 on the queen calendar. 1) You must go back in and remove any missed queen cells (You can pull them and make a nuc) or 2) you must place the cell bar of now capped queen cells, above an excluder. This is to prevent any missed queen cells from coming out and killing all your queens. remember, I grafted into a hive that was making queens cells about three days ahead of my grafting. I then pull my cells on day 13. That gives me an extra day to place the cells, even if they start emerging on day 15.

The nice thing about grafting is that you know in 48 hours if you did a good job or not. I've had a bad graft and you pull the bars, and simply graft again.

If I was making cells just for myself and I was not under pressure to have queens on certain dates based on orders, I may try some of the other methods. I have tried about every method out there. But I still like the control and output of grafting.

I'll defer on commenting on cloake boards and Mel's system. I would rather tell you what I do, and keep it positive... rolleyes

I would not move cells until at least day 12. I know some will mention they get away with moving open queen cells, etc., I just try to pass on the optimal situation, and thus keep your failures to a minimum.  Wink

There are many ways to raise queens. The basic queen calendar, the risk, timing, almost always stays the same. The main thing to not allow to happen is a rogue queen to kill your cells.

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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 02:01:23 PM »

that explains a lot,  the comments on moving them are sound.  I have read and heard everthing from just capped to not until the last minute.  I understand your comments on grafting and the extent we go to to avoid it....  not all of us have teh eyes or hands to accomplish grafting as well as others.   I do think   concrns about temp and how much jelly and all the other details intimade us a lot......

Mels system seemed simple   obviulsly you see a hole or two in the plan?   My thoughts on new queens were not for sale so I am not as worried about timing as you may be,  just something simple.   I especialy like Mels thoughts on late requeening as I have noticed that july queens outlay all my others so far....

Curious  when you finaly do move the queen cells to the breeding nuc or incubator,  how careful do you have to be with temp and josteling?  is  flipping them upside down and such as you work an issue?  or are they pretty tough by day 13?

Thanks again for the comments.
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danno
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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2009, 03:00:34 PM »

Thank you also Bjorn
My problem with grafting is my eyes.  When i was 45 i could have seen a egg in a cell at 20ft and maybe still could (distance is amasing)  but since then I have been having trouble reading my watch and things like that.  this is the reason that I bought the jenter system.  I cant see close up and my arms are no longer long enough!!!   I would really like to hear your oppinions on the cloakeing board so please speak up.  I have sorted through many, many oppinions on this site and as with everything else have to make up my own mind for what works for me. thanks again dan
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 10:32:13 PM »


I would not move cells until at least day 12. I know some will mention they get away with moving open queen cells, etc.,


day 12? are you using the queen calender?, I pull mine on day 10 from the time I graft.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2009, 06:40:18 AM »


I would not move cells until at least day 12. I know some will mention they get away with moving open queen cells, etc.,


day 12? are you using the queen calender?, I pull mine on day 10 from the time I graft.

Yes Ted, I always refer to a 16 day queen calendar. (Egg layed on day 1, graft a four day egg(no such thing) or 1 day larvae, queen cell capped on day nine, queen emerges day 16, and so on) Most books and graphs show and indicate a queen emerging on day 16, etc. I have a grafting sheet that is set up this way. That way, regardless of the type system you use, you have the flexibility to to use it whether your counting from day 1 when an egg is layed in a jenter system, or your actually starting on day 4 with grafting a 1 day larvae. The sheet allows you to put in the day when you started, and it counts out the days for you, indicating automatically when to pull cells, when they should open, etc.

Your pulling yours day 10 after graft which would be day 14 on the queen calendar (no problem with that). I'll assume you good enough to graft a 1 day larvae... grin

But indicating a queen pull on day 10, as many beekeepers are looking at a 16 day queen calendar as shown in most books, will give some the false idea that it's day 10 on the queen calendar. I just find it easier to get those raising queens, regardless of the system, to call day nine when a queen cell is capped, and day 16, the day a queen emerges, just easier to understand for most.

Goes like this.....

Day 1....Egg is layed
Day 4....Graft 1 day old larvae
Day 9....Cells capped
Day 13..Move cells to nucs
Day 16..Cells open   

Day 18..If not emerged, discard
Day 21-26..Mating flights
Day 34..Check for eggs
Day 41..if no eggs discard queen

I have a form set up that once the first date is entered (whether day 1 or day 4 on the calendar), it plugs in the rest of the dates.

Keep in mind, that day 18 and beyond are approximate dates that may be plus or minus a couple days depending on seasonal changes and other aspects.
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2009, 11:12:14 AM »

Well that explians  the differences I keep seeing in dates very well...... Could you address the issue as to how  "fragile" or temp sensite the queens are at that stage?

Thanks
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2009, 11:26:19 AM »

Well that explians  the differences I keep seeing in dates very well...... Could you address the issue as to how  "fragile" or temp sensite the queens are at that stage?

Thanks

charlie,
You can always sneak a peak after 48-72 hours of grafting to see what cells are being made. You just need to keep the frame straight up and down, don't bump, etc. Be very careful.

Some say don't do this. But if you even had a double queen, where you removed the first queen, than grafted, and waited ten days to find out they made you ZERO queens.... I'd be peaking. And when you first start, you may have just a crappy graft for a host of reasons.

So peak after a couple days. Then leave them alone till after day 11 on the queen calendar. Up to this day, they are in contact with the royal jelly plug. If they lose contact, they will die. So do not move or mess with them till AFTER day 11.

After that day, you can move them, but every day you wait, the queen is better developed and less likely to get damaged.

As I said previously, I like to move mine on day 13. And I lose very little queen cells. But caution is still given in that you must not let them sit in the sun, drop them, etc. Get them in a hive/nuc as soon as possible after removing them.
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2009, 01:08:17 PM »

So I take it normal mid 70's temp  is not an issue then as long as you don't prolong it??  I am thinking an hour or two while you move things around?

Charlie
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2009, 01:45:31 PM »

So I take it normal mid 70's temp  is not an issue then as long as you don't prolong it??  I am thinking an hour or two while you move things around?

Charlie

I always have my nucs ready the day before. If it is cool out, a heated wet towel in a small foam cooler will help keep them warm. Whether it too hot or too cold, do whatever you can to keep them near 90 degrees.
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 02:49:56 PM »

some where along the line my thread took a left turn.  Bjorn can you tell me your problems with the cloakeing board
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2009, 03:31:28 PM »

some where along the line my thread took a left turn.  Bjorn can you tell me your problems with the cloakeing board

danno,
The use of the cloake board has been used with grafting and raising eggs above the excluder and cloake board.

But the standard procedure, which include switching the position of the bottom half of the hive, pumping up the Field bee numbers above the excluder, removing the cloake board and relying on the queen excluder in the finishing stages, all present steps, additional work, and some dangers in doing so. I just do not favor such steps.

My own opinion is that so many people seem to go out of there way to come up with some special little way of doing something so they can be set apart, or able to promote something different, that it just adds to confusion of a very simple idea....which is, make a hive queenless, graft some eggs, and make some queens.

I guess I would promote cloake boards if I made and sold them.  rolleyes But I don't. And I see them as just another thing to spend money on...  grin I have mine in the barn... Wink
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 03:53:00 PM »

Thanks and I hope you didn't taken my previous post in the wrong way.  this has all been good info.
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2009, 08:21:46 PM »

Thanks and I hope you didn't taken my previous post in the wrong way.  this has all been good info.

Not at all. Just glad you understood what I was saying... Wink
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2009, 11:16:17 PM »

yeah Bjorn I always try to graft day old larva, I have never used a calender I just do like I always have, graft then 10 days later transfer cells to nuc's, always worked for me that way  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2009, 09:14:42 AM »

Let me make sure I have this straight,  Bjorn is useing teh calander that starts the day the egg is laid,   and TWT  is going ten days from day old larva,  which is actually  day 13-14 from the egg laid...... hence the differnces in stated dates.
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2009, 09:39:14 AM »

With egg laid as day 1,  I move my cells on day 13.
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2009, 09:50:37 AM »

Go to Robo's (Rob's) site and print off his queen calender. 
Rob
With your queen system does it require a pc of wax foundation pressed in with the plugs?
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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2009, 10:01:04 AM »

Let me make sure I have this straight,  Bjorn is useing teh calander that starts the day the egg is laid,   and TWT  is going ten days from day old larva,  which is actually  day 13-14 from the egg laid...... hence the differnces in stated dates.

That's right. But it's not TwT's fault. He is from Georgia...and you must understand, he only has 10 fingers to count..  lau
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2009, 10:03:44 AM »

..and you must understand, he only has 10 fingers to count..  lau

You sure?   I thought most of them have lost at least one finger to "experience".... chop chop
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2009, 10:29:55 AM »

With your queen system does it require a pc of wax foundation pressed in with the plugs?


It is not really my system.  I use the standard Nicot kit.   No foundation is needed for the process.  The brown cell cups press into the laying box,  and once they have hatched larvae,  they are just moved to the cell bar which they just press into.   It is a good idea to give the cell builder a frame of foundation though if you don't want comb built on and around your cells.




As Bjorn stated, there are many ways and methods to rear queens.   You need to pick a method that fits you best,  they all have pros/cons.

I like the Cloake method because it relatively simple, not very labor intensive and gives me consistent results.  I have a full time job with a hour commute each way,  so I don't have a lot of free time.   With the Cloake method,  I need less than 1 hour each day.

Here is a comment from Harry Cloake's  son Russ.

Your comments as to the simplicity and lack of labour involved are very accurate as we used to raise about 2500-3000 cells over a period of about a month from about 16-18 hives and once the system was set up only about 1 hour per day was taken up by cell raising.

I can't speak for the quantity numbers,  but I can say the labor time is accurate.

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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2009, 12:26:14 PM »

Rob
I couldn't think of the name Nicot and  I did know that it was a purchassed system.  My Jenter system looks just like that with the plugs and box.  The directions that came with it say to cut a 4X4" pc of medium brood wax, lay it in the back of the box and press the cell plugs through giving them alittle twist  which gives the bottom of the cells on the other side a wax base for the queen to lay in
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2009, 01:06:35 PM »

OK,  I'm not that familiar with the Jenter system, but as you can see in the picture,  the nicot system has the "foundation" molded in.  The cups just slip on from the back.

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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2009, 02:15:17 PM »

The Jenter is exactly the same with molded cells on the excluder side. They have been sprayed with wax and are fully drawn depth.  What they are saying is by pushing the cups in through wax on the back side it cuts a small disc of wax that lays in the bottom of the cup cells.   
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2009, 02:51:58 PM »

I guess I don't understand the purpose of that.  Seems like there is the chance that the small disc (and egg/larvae) could easily fall out or stick to the laying box when you move the cell cup to the cell bar frame.

I haven't had any issue with getting a queen to lay in the plain cups if I put the frame in 24hrs prior to confining the queen.
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2009, 06:42:20 PM »

With egg laid as day 1,  I move my cells on day 13.

3 days for a egg to hatch and then he takes out on day 13, if I graft newly hatch eggs (1st day) and wait 10 days then figures to me  that me and robo are removing on same day. does that sound right to you?
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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2009, 07:07:05 PM »

With egg laid as day 1,  I move my cells on day 13.

3 days for a egg to hatch and then he takes out on day 13, if I graft newly hatch eggs (1st day) and wait 10 days then figures to me  that me and robo are removing on same day. does that sound right to you?


No...would you not be at 14...  huh
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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2009, 07:24:37 PM »

yup guest I would!! maybe thats why in 2 days I check and she is hatched  tongue , like I said I dont use a calender, 10 days from the day I graft  grin , in 4 years havent had one hatch out early but did forget a excluder one time and had a marked queen take over the hive and kill all the cells.

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