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Author Topic: What would you have done?  (Read 4694 times)
tlynn
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« on: February 24, 2009, 04:35:47 PM »

Today I was driving by an apartment complex and saw a pest control truck parked along the side of the first building.  I happened to notice a guy in a bee veil walking around the truck so I turned around and went over.  He was just climbing a ladder with a pump up bottle of pesticide in his hand.  I got out and asked if they were honeybees, which I then saw congregating around a hole where the soffitt meets the wall siding at second floor height.  He said yes, and I asked him if they do cutouts.  He said no.  I asked is there any way he could not kill them and arrange for a beekeeper like me to come recover them.  He got a bit agitated and said the management company contracted his company to exterminate them and that was what he was going to do.  I thought for a moment to just give him some cash for coming out so I could get rid of him and then go to the owners and talk to them.  Then he then turned around and went up the ladder and sprayed them. 

Maybe there wasn't anything I could do, but I just couldn't help but think that perhaps I was driving by for a reason, that is to save that colony, and I gave up when it looked like he was in no cooperating mood.  I rationalized the expense of cutting into the building and repairing it, and that was something the owner wouldn't want to do just to save some insects.

What's more maddening is he puts a little fluorescent yellow sign against the wall that proclaims beware Hot Hive and African killer bees and their website name and phone number.  Who knows?  Maybe it was a hot hive and tenants were getting stung.

So what would you have done in this situation?
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Grant11
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2009, 04:41:42 PM »

I thought it was illegal to kill honey bees.
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2009, 04:44:42 PM »

Its very frustrating. I went to do a removal and when I got there, they had taken a fire hose and sprayed them into oblivion. The janitor was so proud of himself.
Theres nothing you can do. I think in your state they have to kill feral hives b/c of AHB. Understudy is the man w/ the 411 in your state on this issue.My state its now againts the law to kill a hive w/o attempting to have it removed. I now get more call from exterminators than the police departments.
You cant save them all, just keep trying is all. Sometimes cutouts die too...
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2009, 04:51:31 PM »

Today I was driving by an apartment complex and saw a pest control truck parked along the side of the first building.  I happened to notice a guy in a bee veil walking around the truck so I turned around and went over.  He was just climbing a ladder with a pump up bottle of pesticide in his hand.  I got out and asked if they were honeybees, which I then saw congregating around a hole where the soffitt meets the wall siding at second floor height.  He said yes, and I asked him if they do cutouts.  He said no.  I asked is there any way he could not kill them and arrange for a beekeeper like me to come recover them.  He got a bit agitated and said the management company contracted his company to exterminate them and that was what he was going to do.  I thought for a moment to just give him some cash for coming out so I could get rid of him and then go to the owners and talk to them.  Then he then turned around and went up the ladder and sprayed them. 

Maybe there wasn't anything I could do, but I just couldn't help but think that perhaps I was driving by for a reason, that is to save that colony, and I gave up when it looked like he was in no cooperating mood.  I rationalized the expense of cutting into the building and repairing it, and that was something the owner wouldn't want to do just to save some insects.

What's more maddening is he puts a little fluorescent yellow sign against the wall that proclaims beware Hot Hive and African killer bees and their website name and phone number.  Who knows?  Maybe it was a hot hive and tenants were getting stung.

So what would you have done in this situation?

Kicked the ladder out from under him banana devil banana devil banana devil

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JP
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2009, 05:19:00 PM »

If its legal in your state and he wasn't breaking any law the only thing you could do is try and educate him or perhaps the owner of the company.

It sounds like he was just spraying them and not removing the colony, is this correct?

If so, chances are about 50/50 he won't get rid of the colony. .

Initially, it is easy to become outraged and confront the guy with fire. The best thing to do is kill him with kindess and try and get into his head with facts and perhaps he will think twice next time.

Besides, the complex is gonna get bees again. Give your name and # out to the property mgr.

I commend you for stopping and talking with him.



...JP
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2009, 05:27:47 PM »

when the gunk starts dripping down the inside of the wall, they'll think about pulling your card for the next hive removal  smiley.

you can't blame folks for wanting to get rid of the bees.  they probably consider it a liability issue.  they may also be required to hire licensed/bonded people to do the work.  not many of us backyard beekeepers who advertise removals are licensed and bonded. 

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tlynn
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2009, 05:28:19 PM »

If its legal in your state and he wasn't breaking any law the only thing you could do is try and educate him or perhaps the owner of the company.

It sounds like he was just spraying them and not removing the colony, is this correct?

If so, chances are about 50/50 he won't get rid of the colony. .

Initially, it is easy to become outraged and confront the guy with fire. The best thing to do is kill him with kindess and try and get into his head with facts and perhaps he will think twice next time.

Besides, the complex is gonna get bees again. Give your name and # out to the property mgr.

I commend you for stopping and talking with him.



...JP

Thanks JP.  Good advice.  I wasn't confrontational, but it was getting close which certainly would have served no purpose.  I suppose that's why I backed off.

Correct.  He sprayed them.  I came back about an hour later and noticed a lot of field bees circling around.  No dead bees on the ground that I could see.  Of course the hive is completely internal, within the framing - wood frame construction and stucco covering. 
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JP
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2009, 05:43:56 PM »

Usually what happens is people who don't understand the biology of honeybees try to spray them or seal them in and with no success and repeated call backs give up and stop doing them which is great for us.

The really pathetic thing I see, is these jokers who charge and offer no guarantee of any kind whatsoever.


...JP
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2009, 05:57:48 PM »

There is nothing more you could have done.

In Florida all feral hives are considered AHB and the guideline is that they should be destroyed.

It is a ridiculous policy set up by lobbiest from .... you guessed the pest control companies.

What you do now is you go to the property manager and let them know if they have bees again and they will. you would like to remove them and relocate them to a better place like your bee yard.

Then go to the pest control company and explain that you would like to have them contact you when they encounter a hive so you can remove it without destroying it. You may not get anywhere with this one but it doesn't hurt to try. And if the PCOs(pest control operators) start liking you you will get lots of referrals. You work would have to be top notch. Because if they refer you they want to look good also.

Sincerely,
Brendhan



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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 08:20:33 PM »

 What Understudy said!
 I just read somewhere that if the destroy all "feral" hives in Fl. recommendation had been followed we might not have the AHB problem, but it is too late now. I also read that they might have been here for a lot longer than they know due to coming in on ships before they were worried about bee importation.
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 10:32:20 PM »

What Understudy said!
 I just read somewhere that if the destroy all "feral" hives in Fl. recommendation had been followed we might not have the AHB problem, but it is too late now. I also read that they might have been here for a lot longer than they know due to coming in on ships before they were worried about bee importation.

I am going to inject a bit of opinion here. Some of it based on personal experience some of it with some solid backing.

Where is that soapbox?

Ah yes.

{Soapbox}

The threat posed by AHB is overrated. It is used to justify spending money on research and keeping certain businesses in business.

The destroy all feral hives policy is a disturbingly bad one.

The fear mongering put out there by the Department of Agriculture and others is not justified.

The state used a knee jerk reaction with the push of the Exterminator lobby to implement a shoot first ask questions later policy that has not, will not and does not show any effectiveness in dealing with their supposed threat.

{/Soapbox}

AHB are in Florida and have been for a very long time. As mentioned above they got in here through the ports. before they ever made the trip from South America up through Mexico and across the southern states. This isn't in dispute it just isn't put in the brochures that describe the history of AHB issues in the US.

The policy of kill kill kill was never going to be effective. The spread of AHB was already so far spread that it was well past containment. Because of the limited mind set of the Department of Agriculture and the surrounding industries and others there was no chance that this policy would work. Yet it is the same policy they enact on similar issues. For residents of Florida all I have to do is mention the Citrus Canker issue for most of them to understand what I am saying. Billions not millions were poured into a destroy everyones backyard citrus tree only to have the state run out of money and then have the hurricanes blow the canker all over the state. In the meantime the state put less than $100,000 into finding a effective treatment or vaccine for canker.

Now onto the real threat posed by AHB. Is there one? Well the movies that came out in the 70's with titles like Killer Bees (in 3D if you wanted). Faux docudrama series like In Search Of telling how dangerous these bees were going to bee. The media reporting on every bee attack as if though the only reason could be that these bees were simply aggressive and nothing had happened to provoke them. The modern day version of this happens on Animal Planet on repeat cycle that you could almost set your watch to. National Geographic more than willing to jump head first into this pool also went with the fear aspect more than the truth aspect. The state spends millions on flyers brochures and educational settings on how to deal with the AHB bee threat. There is a lot of money to made with this if you want to help preach the word of the evils of AHB(maybe I shouldn't have put that soapbox away so fast). Let me state this very clearly.

There is no specific AHB threat here in Florida or anywhere else for that matter. There can be a bee threat but it could be any type of bee. But attacks because some kid hit a nest with a baseball bat aren't as exciting for a reporter as some old lady taking her dogs for a walk that get attacked. Never realizing that the kid ran off after hitting the nest as fast as possible. This statement is not popular nor will it win me brownie points but it simply is true based on the evidence that is out there. No one wants to hear it because it can have a direct line to their wallet. People get testy when you have your hands on their wallet.

I hear the cries now. But the bees tested positive for AHB. Yeah because the ones that don't the media doesn't print those corrections. And so what if they did? The way it is made to seem is that you will have thousands of bees come after you they will  dive bomb you and sting you so much that you will resemble a porcupine. The truth? That really doesn't happen that often and when it does it is not a trait specific to AHB. ........... I will wait a moment for that one to sink in. It is a tough pill to swallow. I can hear the cries now, but people have died!!! You betcha they have also died from EHB attacks you just don't hear about those because without the killer bee attack they aren't that exciting. We had the most recent death from an AHB attack happen here in our sunny state. The media was all over this like a lion after a gazelle. The gentleman rip siding off of a trailer ripping the nest into pieces. Now I am going to make a slight digression here. The worst stinging I ever got was when I dropped a hive of EHB. It was nothing sort of an ugly situation. members here have posted their horror stories. Most of them in similar circumstances. So if you didn't smoke your bees and you just ripped the upper hive box off and tossed to the side do you think you bees would be completely cool with this? I am willing to guess in most instances probably not. This kind of destruction should cause a hive to go ballistic. I would expect that the bees would do hundreds of stings. Well the gentleman only received 100 stings. From those killer bees whose house was ripped in half he only received a hundred stings. And so we can stay on the same page, 100 stings is not fatal to the average healthy adult. That number is around 1000. For the gentleman involved though 99 of those stings didn't matter he was known to be allergic to bees he had had a systemic reaction on a previous occasion. So 1 sting was enough to be fatal to him. And whether it had been AHB or EHB did not matter there is no difference in the venom. So these mean horrible bees only stung him 100 times he should have had thousands of stings the way the media and government make it sound. Maybe someone is lying. Now you can say this is all a straw man argument but the evidence and my experience show otherwise.

Now I am not saying you should go forth and threaten to attack people with AHB or infest their area with them that is just stupid. Just don't buy the hype. Because the truth is even more interesting.

So what do we know about AHB.
1. They are a better bee. Biologically they are just superior. They are survivors. They exist better in tropical climates than EHB do. And they have for millions of years.   
2. They swarm more frequently. And they do it with smaller groups. What you may think is an after swarm is a standard AHB swarm. Now the swarms can be large but with AHB they will survive with a queen and a few hundred workers.
3. They withstand disease better this could be part of number 1 but I separated it because those raise AHB people in South America and similar areas hardly ever treat with chemicals. They simply don't need to.

Let's go over another common myth I have been hearing. AHB are more likely to build their nests in weird places like water meters and BBQs. If the nest is near the ground they must be AHB. Right? Nope all of that in my experience is completely wrong. Test results on my hives show that EHB down here will grab what they can for a home. I posted a while back of the guy who killed the hive in BBQ by putting a can of insecticide on a rake and sliding it under the BBQ. Well the pics of the hive came from Australlia. They don't have an AHB problem (that we know of).

Bees be they AHB or EHB are resourceful will build on a tree branch just as quickly as they will in the hollow of the floorboards of your tool shed. a home is a home is a home.

Well how do you deal with all of the hype and fear that exists out there? Education. AHB are here to stay and that doesn't mean you are going to die. Ride on I 95 to the Golden Glades Interchange now that is dangerous.

Boy this thing a has gotten long and probably boring so I will stop now. It's nice to whip out the soapbox on occasion though. Maybe Dallas can tell you how dangerous those AHB were at the Southeast Organic Beekeepers Conference. Right after I shook them all off the frame.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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fermentedhiker
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2009, 10:46:38 PM »

I wonder if you could get the number for the owner of his company and talk to them about subcontracting cutouts to you and other locals?  That way they get their fee and the bees get a good home
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2009, 10:48:04 PM »

I don't know about your area, but around my area there isn't anybody for people to call except the exterminator.  I can't drive for an hour to spend 5 hours cutting out a hive for nothing except a marginal hive when I have all I need in my yard.  Most beekeepers aren't interested either.  And the ones that will do cutouts...well, its cheaper to call an exterminator and deal with the fallout from the hive later on.
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2009, 11:25:38 PM »

Reading Understudy's posting prompted a repressed memory.  I heard reports back in the 1960's of people getting "super" queens from South America.  It wasn't at lot but some breeders obtained some as will as pollinators.  If that is true, and not just rumor, then there is the likely hood that AFB has been present in at least some of the honey bee stock in the USA for nearly 50 years.

But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2009, 11:41:55 PM »

Reading Understudy's posting prompted a repressed memory.  I heard reports back in the 1960's of people getting "super" queens from South America.  It wasn't at lot but some breeders obtained some as will as pollinators.  If that is true, and not just rumor, then there is the likely hood that AFB has been present in at least some of the honey bee stock in the USA for nearly 50 years.

But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.

Yes it's true.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2009, 06:27:14 AM »

Quote from: Understudy
Boy this thing a has gotten long and probably boring so I will stop now.
Thanks for taking the time to type it all out. We too seldom hear the other side of the story, or are even made aware that there is another side of the story.

Edited to add:
The March Bee Culture has a 3-page article explaining the official State of Florida story on AHB.
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2009, 07:25:44 AM »

I thought it was illegal to kill honey bees.

Grant11, I see you're from the Pacific Northwest.  I heard from an exterminator here in Washington State that it's illegal for them to kill honeybees but I've never actually read this law anywhere.  So if you're from Washington, then you've probably heard the same thing.  Unfortunately not all states have these "laws" and can spray all they want, and it's almost encouraged in states where AHB is common.

Sean Kelly
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« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2009, 07:44:12 AM »

I would of kept driving without stopping.

I have come to realize a few things....

1) Cutouts take hours to accomplish. In the time I can do a cutout, I can graft 30 queens and make 15 splits. Way too productive for worrying about a feral colony of bees two stories up and in a wall.

2) What I collect out of the wall, may not be anything I want in my yards, or my breeding program. Why I would waste the time to drag home potential problems is questionable at best.

This was an apartment complex. Most places such as this are usually under contract or have one pest control company they deal with. So maybe they are not paying any more for this service anyways.

Is there an abundance of beekeepers willing to do this type work? Many times the answer is no. Not one beekeeper in my area advertises for bee removals. Not one is listed in the yellow pages. Nobody from the bee club is insured, licensed, or bonded, to provide this type service. And in today's world of liability, why would an owner of the complex seek out "hobbyest" uninsured people to perform work on their buildings...is clear to me.

We have over 3500 members on this forum. Look how many advertise for swarm collection on the site map. Not many. And some of those openly state they do not do cutouts. Reality is that it many times is hard for individuals, county extension agents, and anyone else calling, to find a beekeeper willing to go out and do this type work. We make it sound as if they should of had some list of beekeepers and willing to phone down that list of beekeepers willing to run across town and provide this service to "save" the bees. But the problem is...nobody ever provides that list for anyone to cal l from.

From my days as a state bee inspector, I am on the county 911 emergency action list. I basically get called when they can not get anyone else to respond. There is a list of beekeepers willing to collect swarms. But if they mention a second floor, behind a wall, or anything beyond a swarm hanging at eye level from an unobstructed branch, seems nobody on that list is willing to do anything. And then someone says it's a shame when people either through a lack of people to call, or past results of getting nowhere by calling beekeepers, pest control people are called in.

And it's kind of a catch 22 thing also. Seems some think we should all run out there and take a day saving the bees, but think it should be for free. I charge for the service. And discussions at bee clubs, seem to always show many who think we should do this sort of stuff for free, as some "PR" thing for the bee industry. Problem is, when the phone rings, and someone needs to respond to a colony behind the chimney on the second floor......not a beekeeper is to be found.

How this for an idea. Local county clubs paying for an advertisement in the yellow pages. Allowing those homeowners who have a problem, to actually have someone to call. If you open up most phone books, there is not one number listed for bee removal or swarm collection for people to call. We can not expect the general public to do anything beyond what they know to do...and that is call the exterminator. And we can't really blame those for whatever reason, do not want old men hanging from ladders and ripping open walls to collect some bees, without insurance, etc.

Beekeepers can not even agree as to whether one can get paid for services. Some charge, some do not. Some consider them "free" bees, others realize they can be the most expensive bees you will ever own. And yet we sit back and magically expect the public to know what to do when a colony appears in their walls. Besides a swarm list that basically comes down to a list of those willing to collect easy hanging swarms, there is little education, little advertisement, and little numbers of actual beekeepers willing to even provide such services.

I applaud those willing to this type of work who have built up a business and service, providing this type work, and actually charge for it. It's better than the beekeeper who does it when he needs to replace a hive, when the weather is good, and it is conveneint to do so. Providing this service to communities, means having that service available at all times for those people to call when they need bees removed. With anything less, we should not be complaining when those same homeowners can call one exterminator and have someone respond.

I belong to two county clubs. Both have swarm lists. Neither have a bee association or a bee removal advertisement in the phone book. Unless the homeowner is smart enough to seek out the county bee club number from somewhere or some magical place....a pest control guy will get called.

I guess what I'm saying, what are beekeepers doing on a local, county or state level to educate, provide the information, and change the practice of bees being killed? Except for a few areas, most of the times...nothing. We are reactive...not proactive.

Just the way I see it....
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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2009, 07:57:47 AM »

What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.
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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2009, 01:04:36 PM »

In reply to Understudy:

I pretty much agree with your soap box but will just state that AHB is an issue because at minimum it has been made an issue.  At this point, for a hobby beekeeper that is in a AHB area opens themselves up to scrutiny if we don't manage for AHB.   I say hobby beekeeper just because hobbiest are more likely to keep bees in areas that are closer to people on a regular basis. 
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