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Author Topic: Cageing queens  (Read 2039 times)
gmcharlie
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« on: February 14, 2009, 09:03:33 AM »

Okay  new question (this will be my first year raising queens)     When you make a fram with new queen cells say 8-10 per frame  and then  after they are sealed you put a cage on them  I understand thats so they don't come out and kill the other queens right away,  but how long can they be isolated in that cage before you have an issue?  do they need feed?  or do you leave nurse bees with them to feed them thru the bars?

I am also wondering about the temp.  I read  a lot about  chilled brood.   what temp shoudl you keep the queens at while you working the cells to get them started,  or while they are maturing.   obviously if they are Caged the nurse bees cannot control the temps.

Charlie
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TwT
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2009, 09:20:33 AM »

what is it you are planning to do with those queens (are you learning how to introduce virgins successfully?, this can be avoided)? I would only use cages if I wasn't going to be around the week around the queens hatching, other than that I put the cells in nuc's or do splits before they hatch and I make the up nuc's or do splits the same day. it is a lot easier letting a cell hatch in a hive than introducing a virgin queen into a nuc or split. counting days is very important so you know when the cells will hatch. if you are grafting just remember get the same size larva so one does not have a day head start ahead of the rest. 
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gmcharlie
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2009, 06:49:15 PM »

well teh plan is to do some splits,  as well as requeening a cpl of existing hives.  I was also intendind to use mel disselkens thery on fall queens for mite control.  I had planed on breeding them in nucs before placeing them in hives to prevent downtime while they are getting mated.   hadn't thought about removing teh cells  and putting them in the hives as I was going to use  (mel again) the standard frame to hatch them on.   not sure how I would remove the cell  how long will it take her to find and kill the other queens?  I assmed she would try to kil them in heir cells.
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TwT
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2009, 10:05:46 PM »

 sorry but this doesn't make since to me letting a virgin fight it out with a laying queen but the odds are the bee's will protect the old queen and kill your introduced virgin queen, sounds like a waist of time to me, now I am not sure of this but to me it sounds like that is what will happen, just find and kill the old queen or move her to a nuc and see what happens, you might can add her back to the hive is the new queen does not mate or produce right. just sounds crazy to me, some of the old ways we might still use but breeding queens has evolved since most of those books was written. 

Who is this mel disselkens guy? sounds like he is trying to sale something!!!
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2009, 10:15:20 PM »

aw just seen the other post, he might have something but it is nothing I would ever do because I raise queens from grafting cells and raising queens that way, I dont want to take a chance on losing a queen I work hard to get. sorry but I am hard headed and stuck in the ways that work best for me (you can ask a few on here  tongue ) but I wish you the best of luck on what ever way you try this!!!
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RayMarler
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2009, 01:22:59 AM »

If you introduce a virgin queen into the top of a queen-right hive, the virgin will kill or force out the old queen.... Scientific Queen Rearing by G.M. Doolittle.

I know someone in a different forum that introduced ready to hatch queen cells into the top of queen right hives. The cells hatched and took over the hives, the old queens either were killed or forced out.
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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2009, 06:51:31 AM »

If you introduce a virgin queen into the top of a queen-right hive, the virgin will kill or force out the old queen.... Scientific Queen Rearing by G.M. Doolittle.

I know someone in a different forum that introduced ready to hatch queen cells into the top of queen right hives. The cells hatched and took over the hives, the old queens either were killed or forced out.

Thats not a guaranteed thing. So your taking a chance that the new queen does not take over, and your taking a chance that the new queen is damaged prior to mating.

You can make many things work, with less chances of this or that. I woud think selecting the BEST chance for success is worth seeking. Running in virgins from the top is not the best chance.
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gmcharlie
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2009, 09:17:18 AM »

sorry didn't type that correctly,  I will remove the old queen before replacing her.  I know that... grin  Mels methods of queen production don't require all the grafting crap,  and seem much more workable.   there is also the  "case" method  which in essence is the same,  allow the cells to be open on the bottom and the heck with the eye test of gratfing.  ler the bees do what they do.   

Unfortunatly no one has addressed my original questions,  how long can they remain caged,  and what temp range is critical?   I AMM ASSUMING SINCE THEY ARE NOW CAGED AND WORKERS CANNOT GET TO THEM TO REGULATE TEMP, that it mest be controled within some range.

Charlie
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2009, 10:55:35 AM »

Bjorn can probably answer that, sorry I never tried it with caged virgins, I think Bjorn use's or has used a incubator so he might can answer that one!
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BjornBee
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2009, 01:11:49 PM »

TwT,

I do not cage virgin queens as some type of encouraged procedure. I cage queens (cells) on days that I am behind and need to keep them from coming out and killing each other. I'll remove all cells from the bars, place them into individual cages, then just stand them up on top of the frames. If I can, I'll leave them on the cell bar and cage them. I use wooden cell bases from Kelly and the hair curler cages work well. The hive or even nuc, is already very strong, and the bees will normally keep the cells warm. So I do not use an incubator. Once emerged, I remove the queens with cage, and place them into nucs that have been queenless for a day or two. After 24 ours, I open up the cage and the queen walks out.

As a side note, all my nucs have a two inch spacer already made. For feeding, etc. So laying the cage on top of the frames of a nuc is no problem. The bees will feed and provide enough heat.


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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2009, 05:05:19 PM »

I do as you but I guest my memory is off a little, I thought I read that you used a incubator before, guest that wasn't you, sorry, but anyone that uses a incubator could probably answer his question.
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gmcharlie
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2009, 09:50:36 PM »

My understanding is to place teh cage around the queen before she hatches and kills the others also. I had planned on several queens on the same frame and not trying to remove the queen cells from the foundation,(raised in duraguilt)  due to potential damage.  so  been pondering climate to avoid chilled brood during the prep and teh caged stages.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2009, 12:19:28 AM »

When you're dealing with caged virgins you need to remember that after a few days comes the mating window and if held past that point all you have is unmated drone layers.
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