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Author Topic: changes to our medical care?  (Read 3236 times)
kathyp
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« on: February 09, 2009, 06:42:15 PM »

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_mccaughey&sid=aLzfDxfbwhzs
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 07:59:08 PM »

Mc Caughey, the author of said article, is a Senior Fellow of the Hudson Institute. The same institute that gave us Dennis Avery and his deceitful attacks on Organic food(Funded by some of the largest Multinational Agrochemical Corporations).It also boasts as large donors the likes of Eli Lilly, Ciba-Geigy, phRMA and other Pharmaceutical Corps. which have a large stake in keeping the status quo in our failing health system. Take it with a grain of salt.
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 08:16:57 PM »

your evaluation of her has little to do with the info.

since her source points are listed, you may look for yourself.

our health system is not failing.  it will fail if we try to institute a british style national health service.  our insurance system sucks.  if we are to direct our energies to something, it should be toward the insurance industry and 3rd party payers;  not toward instituting rationed care and destroying the best medical care in the world.

and may i add...reforming a system of litigation that allows people to sue over everything and anything that they and their lawyers think will get them a few bucks.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 10:06:52 PM »

KathyP is correct in pointing out that the single most item increasing the cost of medical care is litigation.

What Dashle proposes is socialized medicine, pure and simple.  We will have people waiting in lines with mandate wait times between follow up appointments, life saving procedures, etc.  In my case my health care would deteriorate to nothing as my multiple health issues combined with my age would dictate a finding of let him die.  The life expectancy of people would go down as costly or complex procedures for the elderly would be denied on a "soon to die, terminal" basis.  Only those with a life expectancy of more than 10 years could expect a favorable finding.  Another qualifier in the consideration not listed (but used in the British system) is economical productivity of the patient.

This is scary stuff folks. 
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2009, 09:52:33 PM »

finally dug through this thing.  i know, a little AR on my part, but i can't  help it.  smiley  here is my analysis for what it's worth.

1.  it doesn't belong in a stimulus bill, other than the fact that it creates a new bureaucracy and will employ people for the work...i'm not sure that more bureaucracy is particularly stimulating.

2.  it will have very little impact on most of us right now.

however.......it lays the very necessary framework for national health care.  without this czar, and this work, government health care can not be instituted.  when that happens, the government will have already centralized our medical records, determined cost to benefit treatment, and have a mechanism for watching and evaluating the behavior of doctors.  the unspecified penalties for doctors who do not stick to the plan will then be specified and enforced.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2009, 08:17:58 PM »

Please Kathyp, best medical system in the world? From a Canadian pont of view the US does not have a medical sysem.  We understand that there are some forty million American citizens with no coverage at all.  The British system differs from ours in that while both are all inclusive and fully funded publicly, the Brits have a private sector for those who can afford to access health care more quickly.  There are waiting times but only Australia and France have shorter waiting times on average than ours.  Just for arguments sake we always thought your neighbour Cuba had hands down the best medical system any where on this planet, training medical practitioners from throughout third world for free, and offering eye surgery free to American citizens.  Just how do you judge medical systems I wonder.  Aren't we all in this together or are some people more equal than others?  Why cn't the US come up with a real plan?  Oh yes not to mention the outrageous drug prices that have bus loads of Americans coming to Canada to fill prescriptions for one third or less.
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2009, 10:15:21 PM »

Kathyp,

I think you mean most expensive healthcare system in the world.  By any measure ours is not the best.  Actually I don't think its even in the top 10 these days.  Makes me sick just thinking about how we are ripped off in the US.

SH

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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2009, 10:36:00 PM »

Just checked the WHO's ranking of healthcare systems.  Here are the top 50:

Rank       Country

1         France
2         Italy
3         San Marino
4         Andorra
5         Malta
6         Singapore
7         Spain
8         Oman
9         Austria
10        Japan
11        Norway
12        Portugal
13        Monaco
14        Greece
15        Iceland
16        Luxembourg
17        Netherlands
18        United  Kingdom
19        Ireland
20        Switzerland
21        Belgium
22        Colombia
23        Sweden
24        Cyprus
25        Germany
26        Saudi Arabia
27        United  Arab  Emirates
28        Israel
29        Morocco
30        Canada
31        Finland
32        Australia
33        Chile
34        Denmark
35        Dominica
36        Costa Rica
37        United States of America
38        Slovenia
39        Cuba
40        Brunei
41        New Zealand
42        Bahrain
43        Croatia
44        Qatar
45        Kuwait
46        Barbados
47        Thailand
48        Czech Republic
49        Malaysia
50        Poland

Ours is not as good as the insurers, politicians and hospitals would like us to believe.

SH
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2009, 03:27:54 AM »

How many of those forty million can afford it but choose not to have it do you suppose?
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2009, 08:29:23 AM »

There are many, many, many late teens and twenty-somethings included in that 40 million who don't have medical insurance and don't want it - they're invincible, ya know!

Fix the litigation issue and you'll see medical care costs go down.  The amount of money spent by doctors on medical malpractice insurance is absolutely incredible (my father was known as the Grandfather of Risk Management for medical malpractice insurance).  Stop giving 'free' medical care to those who don't deserve it, i.e. illegals (now that's a whole 'nother can of worms).  Then let's talk about changing the medical system here.

Edited to add:  Get rid of pharmaceutical advertising.  I don't want to be constantly bombarded by magazine ads, radio ads and TV commercials.  I'm sick and tired of hearing 'tell your doctor'.  My doctor should darned well know what's going on with me, and he/she should also know what meds might be necessary for any issues I have.  I wasn't the one who paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for a medical degree.  Drugs would cost far less if they weren't spending five times more on advertising than they were investigating and testing.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 08:40:02 AM by reinbeau » Logged


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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2009, 08:31:14 AM »

None of the one-world-goverment type agencies have an agenda.  rolleyes  They deserve our full trust.  Not the least bit socialistic.

France is awesome!  My co-workers daughter was over there for school, and decided to cash in on the free healthcare to get some medication for an infected cut that she cut on the beach.  The doctor told her that she needed to lose weight.  So she found an a american doctor.  Sure, one example, but doesn't instill confidence.

Somebody's got to pay for the drugs that canada's getting cheap.

Our system is far from perfect.  But I sure wouldn't be going to Costa Rica for surgery.  Or Ireland.  Or France.  In the Netherlands they'd probably just put you down like a dog.
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2009, 08:42:40 AM »

When was the last time we heard of a rich saudi or european flying to andora for surgery rolleyes
They come to the US for a reason

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2009, 05:14:29 PM »

don't have much time, but i'll add a bit.  1st, who made the list and by what criteria did they rate care?

 at least 3 of those countries have considered or instituted rationed care, and have either engaged in or considered active euthanasia to keep costs down.  GB NHS is in such a mess they can't care for patients.  they don't have the hospitals, doctors, or equipment to do timely surgeries, let alone see patients when they need to be seen.  the system is running them broke.  canada sends patients to us, and patients come to us for care that they can not get, or have to wait for in canada....we are not talking about athletes foot treatment.  things like MRIs to diagnose suspected brain tumors, and high risk prenatal care.
Cuba can't keep the lights on.  they may have well educated doctors and they may do surgeries that we don't approve in the US, but it sure would suck to have the lights go out in the middle of your eye surgery! 

if you have a small country that chooses to pay the taxes to cover medical care, etc. for all, that's one thing.  if you have a country of 300 million people, 40% of whom do not pay taxes, and another 12 to 20 million who are illegals, that's quite another thing.

of the 40 million (questionable number) who do not have health care, many choose not to...many, especially children are eligible but their parents are to stupid to sign them up.

the system is not perfect, but i say again and from personal observation, we have the best medical care in the world.  even for most of the uninsured.   

fix the lawsuites.  fix the insurance companies. 3rd party payer system is one of the main reasons care is so expensive.  go back to a pay as you go system for most care.  more choices, not fewer, force competition and bring prices down. 

look at what the government runs and then tell me you want them running your health care also.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 08:35:03 PM »

Quote
look at what the government runs and then tell me you want them running your health care also.
Ha ha!  I can just imagine it...they wouldn't give us any of the drugs or treatment that we need, but they would give us piles of tongue depressors and cotton swabs!  Now that would be medical stimulus!! rolleyes
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2009, 09:08:43 PM »



fix the lawsuites.  fix the insurance companies. 3rd party payer system is one of the main reasons care is so expensive.  go back to a pay as you go system for most care.  more choices, not fewer, force competition and bring prices down. 

look at what the government runs and then tell me you want them running your health care also.



I agree totally if you talking about the USA goverment( high lighted) , but if you talking about a good FREE place to live it can't be the USA anymore, I dont know if there is any really? if you read the constitution you would see how much it has changed, they only keep the constitutions for a artifact I think because our government doesn't follow it anymore, hasn't for a long time, if my land was paid for I would still have to pay taxes on it every year to keep it, if I dont pay taxes every year on my truck I cant drive it, on my pay checks I pay fed tax, state tax, medicare, ect. and then I get whats left.

 When is this country going to see that this is no longer United States of America, it is UNITED STATES OF CORPORATIONS, THEY BUY OUR OFFICIALS AND THEY RUN EVERYTHING, been that way and going to be until the Blue collared worker stands up together like minorities do. I think if you vote for a politician that has been in office for 1 term he has probably been bought, end of story, let say on these packages they been passing they divide it up and give every tax payer the money which would be in the 100 thousands, we would buy new cars, homes, pay off mortgages, ect. and none of them rich bosses would just get fat bonuses from the government and no companies would be going under. they been bought, it a easy fix but they keep you happy saying you will get $400 a person back because they are fixing things. My daughter is 14 and can see what the government is doing, why cant the rest of the USA?Huh I will stop now and probably not post here again because it just tears me up......... good luck with the future post all. 
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2009, 11:23:00 PM »

I've said this over and over.  One of the USA's motto was Of the People, By the People, For the People, now just substitute Corporation for People and you've got it in a nutshell.  rolleyes
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2009, 11:54:55 PM »

While I am a happy supporter of our health system I am not blind to the shortcomings.  Michael Moore's take could have been more objective at times and some less than perfect aspects of our system were glossed over lightly if not ignored completely.  There have been many cases where patients were shipped to the states or another province in order to give required treatment when our system is on overload.  We too have illegal immigrants and the under the table economy that does not contribute but still requires coverage.  But really Kathyp, lights going out in any surgery is absurd since all hospitals in this day and age have back up lighting systems just like in my pub.  I am sensing at this time that my politics might be somewhat opposite to the sentiment that I see here.  I guess I am in principle opposed to a profit driven health system.  In the perfect world of Ayn Rand it looks OK but then the human element cuts in and greed sets the pace. In the UK you have the choice between private and public.  In UK and Canada the med school is hugely funded from public purse.  I believe it costs about ten times the ammount to get an MD in US compared with Canada.  This gives the public some say in how our medical service is run.  Salaries however are higher in the States so we do lose some trained people, especially nurses, from time to time.  Our system always needs more money, more personnel and more understanding from the long suffering public sponsors.  In the end however I like it pretty much the way it is.
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 12:46:34 AM »

Quote
But really Kathyp, lights going out in any surgery is absurd since all hospitals in this day and age have back up lighting systems just like in my pub.  I am sensing at this time that my politics might be somewhat opposite to the sentiment that I see here.

There are a lot of countries around the world where "hospitals" as such don't have generators and can't always get the fuel to run those they do have.  Areas of South America, Africa, and Asia are often without any amenaties at all.  Drinking water is a common well or stream, Restrooms are the closest brush, and surgical suites are misquitoe net draped rooms with surgery by flashlight, kerosine lantern, or tallow drenched torch.

I wouldn't call you politics opposite of the seniment so far, just naive of how and what the world really is. 

In Mexico City you can get most of the amenaties you can get in any city in the US or Canada, but step outside the city and you'll find scores of people living beside the garbage dumps in hovels made of cardboard, wood, and tin, and exist only by salvaging and recycling things those in the city don't have any further use for.  And Mexico is one of the better examples, there are countries in Africa and Asia that have and even larger disparity between the haves and have nots that are often seperated by a few steps and a man made barrier.
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2009, 02:46:44 AM »

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In the UK you have the choice between private and public.


yes and no.  if you have a pre-existing medical condition, you can not get private insurance.  private insurance is very expensive, but everyone i know over there has it even if they have to sacrifice to pay for it.  given a choice, no one wants to get really sick and have to depend on the NHS.  their SOC is way behind ours.
i know people in the UK that go to the clinic with every twitch because it's "free".  free is pretty darn expensive for someone.

now....canada has a pretty good system for most things.  however, they have chosen not to invest in some of the high tech and expensive things that we take for granted down here.  MRIs being one of those things.  i can't imagine not being able to get one if i needed it.  it's a numbers game.  yes, a few people will die because they didn't get that extra test or new and expensive drug, the the loss does not justify the expense.

  the problem with health care in the US is not that people don't have access.  they do.  even the uninsured do.  the problem is the cost.  having government take over would make the cost higher with a fewer number of people bearing the burden of that cost.  the solution is to change the way medical services are paid for.  make it a consumer driven market rather than an insurance payment driven market. 

 

i honestly don't care what other countries choose to do.  i do care that we have people here who want to model our government and systems on programs that are not as good as what we already have so that we can be fair to everyone.  it never seems to occur to them that in order to give that stuff to someone, they first have to take away from a productive person.  what is my incentive to produce if what i earn is taken?  why pay my mortgage when they are going to take my tax dollars and subsidize the mortgage of someone who didn't pay, for instance?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2009, 10:36:48 AM »

But really Kathyp, lights going out in any surgery is absurd since all hospitals in this day and age have back up lighting systems just like in my pub. 
Are you in Cuba?  Because that is the specific country Kathy was talking about when she said lights went out during surgery.  And yes, you definitely have a different political view if you get your talking points from Michael Moore  rolleyes
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