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Author Topic: Bye Bye Guns  (Read 1875 times)
iddee
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« on: February 06, 2009, 01:08:46 PM »

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/02/more_gun_control_introduced_in.html
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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bassman1977
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2009, 02:04:13 PM »

Right.  I'd like to see how they plan to enforce it.  Maybe that's their plan on attacking the unemployment in the U.S.  Hire more cops.  Wow...come to think of it, funeral directors will have more work too.  ...also...how is this going to get the illegal firearms off the street?  All this is, is record keeping.  The law abiding citizens are the ones who will register.  The ones who won't register are the ones they can't get the illegal weapons from in the first place.  Congress = FAIL.  Maybe they should worry about something more important for now...you know...like fixing this economy.
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Big John
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 02:16:38 PM »

 thunder I don't mind very well jail
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 02:18:14 PM »

thing is, if you have perchased guns through a dealer, there is a record.  they say that the record is only held for one year then destroyed, but who believes that?  

the record makes it very easy for them to know who to go after.  buy ammo and use anything other than cash?  that's another record.

i'm not into the conspiracy theory world, but this is not even hard to figure out.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 04:27:14 PM »

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/committee.xpd?id=HSJU

It looks like it has some kooky company.  Hopefully a freedom sucking dud like that won't get too far.  I'm sure it will be getting more scrutiny if it makes it out of committee.

Its been a while since highschool government class, but I think almost anybody can introduce a bill (with a sponsor in the house).
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Rick
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 07:06:03 PM »

I give up my guns when flying pig
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 07:17:02 PM »

These guys were migrating through the other day

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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 08:44:27 PM »

ok about the records being destroyed after a year,  my neighbor was visited about his records by the atf 2 years ago,  he sold his gunshop over 20 years ago.  about them getting every gun registered  flying pig  about gun control being about crime no its about control.  they already tried universal gun registration in another country many years ago,  1938 to be exact,  germany and we all know how that worked.
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vegetarian???  isnt green stuff for growing meat?
kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 09:09:15 PM »

if you want to control the population, you have to control information with something like the "fairness doctrine", and arms with gun control.  they know this is their best chance and if they don't do it now, they may have to wait many years to do it again.  feds are already working on controlling business and banking.  i predict that with the amount of money they are giving states, they will start controlling more of what states can and can't do. 

and then they go after the children
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/k2crc.htm
this gets particularly interesting around article 12
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 10:51:59 PM »

I find it interesting that in each case where it is stated that a Child has a right it is then conditioned with applicable laws.

The whole thing reads like a manifesto for control of a person by the state, by saying they have rights and then taking them away.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2009, 11:21:57 PM »

 m. halfbright thought it was a lovely idea and we signed it in '95, but never ratified it.  obama has said he'll review and probably sign off on it...and you know it will be ratified.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2009, 12:41:56 AM »

H.R.45
Title: To provide for the implementation of a system of licensing for purchasers of certain firearms and for a record of sale system for those firearms, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Rush, Bobby L. [IL-1] (introduced 1/6/2009)      Cosponsors (None)
Latest Major Action: 1/6/2009 Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary.

Notice that there are no co-sponsors?  This is nutty legislation that is sure to get the voters upset and seats lost, I doubt that either this or the ammunition bills will go anywhere.  The lessons of the last ban are still in the minds of those that have survived it and kept their seats.


OK, a little reality check from an owner of a gun store and indoor shooting range of twenty years.

When you buy a firearm from a federally licensed firearm dealer you fill out a form 4473.  That form is kept in the records file mandated by the feds in that store location.  It is accessible by the feds when needed either by phone or by personal visit.  Those records are not sent to the feds until the business gives up it's license, at that time the records are entered into a computer log by firearm serial number and model information.

Ever wonder why the government passed the paper reduction act?  They are lousy at keeping records!  Want to really confuse them?  Buy lots af guns and sell most of them, they couldn't prove anything anyway.  'No sir, all I have left is this old single shot shotgun.... wife didn't want any guns in the house with the kids.'   rolleyes

When the purchaser fills out the 4473 the dealer will call the NICS for instant approval for the transfer of the firearm.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsfact.htm

 The FFLs will provide the descriptive information requested on the ATF Form 4473, which is required by law to be completed and signed by every prospective firearm transferee. The FFL will receive a response that the transfer may proceed or is delayed. This response is typically provided within 30 seconds.

If no matching records are returned by any of the databases, the transaction is automatically proceeded. If the NICS returns a match of the prospective firearm transferee’s descriptive information to that of record information located in any of the databases, the FFL is advised that the transaction is delayed. While the FFL is still on the telephone, the call is placed on hold and transferred to the NICS Section in Clarksburg, West Virginia, for a quick review and evaluation by a NICS Legal Instruments Examiner (NICS Examiner). If the record information returned by the NICS presents a valid match to the descriptive information of the prospective firearm transferee, the NICS Examiners, who have access to protected information (as opposed to Call Center personnel who do not have such access) review the information to determine if state and/or federal firearm prohibitive criteria exists. If the information matched by the NICS is not a valid match or no prohibitive criteria exists, the NICS Examiner will advise the FFL they may PROCEED with the firearm transaction. The FFL must record the NICS Transaction Number (NTN) on line 21b of the ATF Form 4473 and retain the form for auditing purposes.


Now, as to how long the information that is phoned into the NICS call center is kept;
 


Privacy and Security of NICS Information

The privacy and security of the information in the NICS is of great importance. In October 1998, the Attorney General published regulations on the privacy and security of NICS information, including the proper and official use of this information. These regulations are available on the NICS Web site. Data stored in the NICS is documented federal data and access to that information is restricted to agencies authorized by the FBI. Extensive measures are taken to ensure the security and integrity of the system information and agency use. The NICS is not to be used to establish a federal firearm registry; information about an inquiry resulting in an allowed transfer is destroyed in accordance with NICS regulations. Current destruction of NICS records became effective when a final rule was published by the Department of Justice in The Federal Register, outlining the following changes. Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day. If a potential purchaser is delayed or denied a firearm and successfully appeals the decision, the NICS Section cannot retain a record of the overturned appeal. If the record is not able to be updated, the purchaser continues to be denied or delayed, and if that individual appeals the decision, the documentation must be resubmitted on every subsequent purchase. For this reason, the Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) has been established. This process permits applicants to request that the NICS maintain information about themselves in the VAF to prevent future denials or extended delays of a firearm transfer. (See VAF Section below.)
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gmcharlie
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 10:53:10 AM »

ATF requires that 4473 be kept forever!   when you close you shop our surrender your license  teh 4473 is transfered to the ATF
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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2009, 11:05:54 AM »

so the gun dealer is the weak link!   grin

really, it doesn't matter.  write a check or use a credit card, there is a record.  buy ammo and there is a record. 

finding things out is kind of what i do.  i can assure you that if there is even a speck of a place to start, all can be known...if you have the right access.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
lakeman
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2009, 02:45:33 PM »

H.R.45
Title: To provide for the implementation of a system of licensing for purchasers of certain firearms and for a record of sale system for those firearms, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Rush, Bobby L. [IL-1] (introduced 1/6/2009)      Cosponsors (None)
Latest Major Action: 1/6/2009 Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary.

Notice that there are no co-sponsors?  This is nutty legislation that is sure to get the voters upset and seats lost, I doubt that either this or the ammunition bills will go anywhere.  The lessons of the last ban are still in the minds of those that have survived it and kept their seats.


OK, a little reality check from an owner of a gun store and indoor shooting range of twenty years.

When you buy a firearm from a federally licensed firearm dealer you fill out a form 4473.  That form is kept in the records file mandated by the feds in that store location.  It is accessible by the feds when needed either by phone or by personal visit.  Those records are not sent to the feds until the business gives up it's license, at that time the records are entered into a computer log by firearm serial number and model information.

Ever wonder why the government passed the paper reduction act?  They are lousy at keeping records!  Want to really confuse them?  Buy lots af guns and sell most of them, they couldn't prove anything anyway.  'No sir, all I have left is this old single shot shotgun.... wife didn't want any guns in the house with the kids.'   rolleyes

When the purchaser fills out the 4473 the dealer will call the NICS for instant approval for the transfer of the firearm.



 The FFLs will provide the descriptive information requested on the ATF Form 4473, which is required by law to be completed and signed by every prospective firearm transferee. The FFL will receive a response that the transfer may proceed or is delayed. This response is typically provided within 30 seconds.

If no matching records are returned by any of the databases, the transaction is automatically proceeded. If the NICS returns a match of the prospective firearm transferee’s descriptive information to that of record information located in any of the databases, the FFL is advised that the transaction is delayed. While the FFL is still on the telephone, the call is placed on hold and transferred to the NICS Section in Clarksburg, West Virginia, for a quick review and evaluation by a NICS Legal Instruments Examiner (NICS Examiner). If the record information returned by the NICS presents a valid match to the descriptive information of the prospective firearm transferee, the NICS Examiners, who have access to protected information (as opposed to Call Center personnel who do not have such access) review the information to determine if state and/or federal firearm prohibitive criteria exists. If the information matched by the NICS is not a valid match or no prohibitive criteria exists, the NICS Examiner will advise the FFL they may PROCEED with the firearm transaction. The FFL must record the NICS Transaction Number (NTN) on line 21b of the ATF Form 4473 and retain the form for auditing purposes.


Now, as to how long the information that is phoned into the NICS call center is kept;
 


Privacy and Security of NICS Information

The privacy and security of the information in the NICS is of great importance. In October 1998, the Attorney General published regulations on the privacy and security of NICS information, including the proper and official use of this information. These regulations are available on the NICS Web site. Data stored in the NICS is documented federal data and access to that information is restricted to agencies authorized by the FBI. Extensive measures are taken to ensure the security and integrity of the system information and agency use. The NICS is not to be used to establish a federal firearm registry; information about an inquiry resulting in an allowed transfer is destroyed in accordance with NICS regulations. Current destruction of NICS records became effective when a final rule was published by the Department of Justice in The Federal Register, outlining the following changes. Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day. If a potential purchaser is delayed or denied a firearm and successfully appeals the decision, the NICS Section cannot retain a record of the overturned appeal. If the record is not able to be updated, the purchaser continues to be denied or delayed, and if that individual appeals the decision, the documentation must be resubmitted on every subsequent purchase. For this reason, the Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) has been established. This process permits applicants to request that the NICS maintain information about themselves in the VAF to prevent future denials or extended delays of a firearm transfer. (See VAF Section below.)


Yes, but when you as a dealer made your buy from the manufacturer, the manufacturer told the ATF they manufactured a gun, and it went to you. Before I retired I owned a business, which was named "Golden Strip XXXXX" another business, which sold a lot of guns, but which had been out of business for years was named "Golden Strip YYYYY", similer but not the same. The feds were telephoning me all of the time, wanting to find out what I did with a certain weapon, and I often had a time convincing them I had never seen nor had it.
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2009, 01:58:24 AM »


Yes, but when you as a dealer made your buy from the manufacturer, the manufacturer told the ATF they manufactured a gun, and it went to you.

No, that is not the way it works.  Dealers typically do not buy firearms from manufacturers, we buy them from distributors for the most part.  The only guns we get directly from the manufacturer are demo guns for renting to the public called 'range guns', and employee discounted guns for personal use.

Your confusion is in some reporting of dealer buying and the manufacturer reporting it to the Feds is false.  Everyone in the system has to keep records of the make, model, and serial number and to the disposition of that firearm.  The ONLY time the Feds have a record of that disposition is when the firearm is recovered from a criminal investigation.  At that time they will contact the manufacturer giving them the serial number and ask for the disposition of that particular firearm.  After finding out to which distributor that firearm was sent to they will contact the distributor to find which of their dealers it was sent to.  Then they have to contact the dealer who sold it to an individual or another dealer that it may have been transferred to.  Then they will contact the next dealer or the final person on the trail, the consumer, to find out who they may have given it to or when they lost it.

So, as long as the dealer has not gone out of business and sent all the records into the Feds, this is what has to happen every time law enforcement wants to trace a firearm.  That is why you were getting all those calls, they were attempting to trace firearms albeit through the wrong business.
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2009, 02:09:59 AM »

really, it doesn't matter.  write a check or use a credit card, there is a record.  buy ammo and there is a record. 


No, it doesn't matter.  If you save a receipt from a cash sale there is a record.

Case in point; a young lady in KC recently was killed by her boyfriend who was prohibited from buying ammunition because of his age, he was too young.   Now the gun store is being sued by the family of the deceased lady for letting her buy that ammunition although she was not prohibited.  All this was brought to light because she saved the receipt.
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shawnwri
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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2009, 09:29:21 PM »

really, it doesn't matter.  write a check or use a credit card, there is a record.  buy ammo and there is a record. 


No, it doesn't matter.  If you save a receipt from a cash sale there is a record.


Note to self.  Don't save receipts.  Barter would be a good thing if I actually had a weapon and needed ammo.
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