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Author Topic: I must protest  (Read 11023 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2009, 05:54:54 PM »

you might also have a different view if you were a prosecutor  smiley

i have only had to show mine once and it was enough.  never even drew it. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2009, 06:06:57 PM »

I like to hunt as much as the next guy, but never keep a gun in my house. You've gotta be delusional to think it makes you more safe.
If someone dies from your gun, heres how it plays out...
57% suicide, Most likely a male in your family.
39% You or someone with access to your gun killing someone.
3% Accidental/unintentional, Double that number, If you have kids.
-1% Self defense/other

From DOJ statistic 2001
Everyone likes to think they could be the action hero in their own life(myself included). The truth is having a gun around usually ends with your son,father, or yourself getting drunk and painting the walls with brain matter.


I read this a couple a days ago "statistics are made up out of thin air %76 of the time"
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« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2009, 06:44:17 PM »

But the grenade launchers would be so fun.. rolleyes whip J
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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2009, 06:47:32 PM »

Throughout the debate on gun control what is delibertly ignored by the anti-gun crowd is the writtings of the founding fathers on the matter of the bill of rights (1st 10 amandments).
If you read those essays, which were written to explain the concieved document to the American Citizens, you'll find that the intent was:
Individual ownership of arms was a national responsiblility for the purpose of survival (hunting), self defense, and the militia (which at the time was comprized of every able bodied person over the age of 16 and under 60).
The arms to be used were to enclude those "....of a military nature so that in the case of war...." members of the milita (every able bodied person between 16 and 60) would have adequate experience with the weapons they would be issued...lacking their own.  
The militia was to be called up, bringing their own arms, in defense of the state or country. (It was not until the end of WWI that a standing national army was created and the practice of locally organized units was discontinued.  After WWI such things as the !st Illinois Infantry, the Rough Riders, and the like, were considered obsolete).

True, some people choose to misuse firearms, and if convicted of a crime lose the right to own and bear arms.  But the truth is that Freedom requires sacrafice and that sacrifice includes a tolerated misuse by a minority.

In the case of Miller, the Supreme Court decided that the ownership of military weapons by an individual was consistant with the provisions of the second amendment.

If you want to argue the 2nd amemdment, or any of the others, get your history right, and in proper context.  That context is the writings of the founding fathers from George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, and many others. When the Supreme Copurt as properly based their decisions on the writings of those who drafted and ratified the US Constitution and it's amendments they have always found the rights to be individual in nature, applicable to every Citizen residing within the boundaries of the USA.
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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2009, 07:59:13 PM »

The 2nd amendment is also for us to protect ourselves against a government gone bad. We couldn't do that if we can't get those big guns.
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« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2009, 08:56:10 PM »

>>Fact: Of the 2,500,000 times citizens use guns to defend themselves, 92% merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers.<
You'd never see this admitted on the Brady Bunch Website.   rolleyes rolleyes
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« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2009, 11:08:12 AM »

you might also have a different view if you were a prosecutor  smiley

Oddly enough, most gun control laws are proposed and supported by law neforcement, which includes the prosecutors.
Obviuosly my experiences deal w/ disastsers which does skew your perception.

Jerrymac and Brian both piont out that one purpose of 2ndA is to be able to defend against the gov't . By that thinking, I want an atomic bomb.
I am all for a true reading of the constitition, but neither liberals nor consevatives can lay claim to literal readings of the constitiion. liberals may tread on 2nd A, but consrvatives looked the other way on the patriot acts infringements of 4rth and 5th A, in addition to other pro law enforcement issues. Both sides have obliteredte the 10th A. Both sides can find framers writings to help suggest their intent. The best way to show intent, is by what they actually ratified, not their editorials in support of their positions before ratification.

I only wish more people got as upset/educated about other constituional rights as they do about 1st and 2A issues. Maybe we would all be better off.
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« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2009, 11:21:31 AM »

if we don't keep our 1st and 2nd, we can't protest infringements against, or defend the others.

i do have problems with things like the patriot act...however, we have much precedent for taking rather extreme measures during war time and then abolishing those measures when the danger is passed. the suspension of habeas corpus during the civil war, the sedition acts of ww1, the internment, censorship, secret prisons, etc. of ww2, all were challenged and removed after war.

i am far more concerned about things like traffic cams, and other forms of monitoring, that infringe far more on privacy than the bit of public safety they bring, justifies.

the problem now is that most people do not recognize that we are at war.  they think that a CCT on the corner may bring them safety on the street, but do not recognize that a captured cell phone call may bring safety to their community.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2009, 01:32:56 PM »

you might also have a different view if you were a prosecutor  smiley
Oddly enough, most gun control laws are proposed and supported by law neforcement, which includes the prosecutors.
Obviuosly my experiences deal w/ disastsers which does skew your perception.
I think it is very important to know that rank and file members of law enforcement nationwide overwhelmingly do NOT support gun control. The upper brass are who you are referring to as they have consistently supported gun control over the years. Which group has more members and which group has more clout in the voting booth? It's not fair to lump all LEO's into the same group on this subject.
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« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2009, 04:32:31 PM »


I am all for a true reading of the constitition, but neither liberals nor consevatives can lay claim to literal readings of the constitiion.

I am always surprised when there is doubt about what the 2nd is all about. The first shots fired in the revolution war happened when the British were going after a cache of weapons. After liberating your fellow man from tyranny, wouldn't you do your best to insure the security of the future generations? People were so adamant about this that they would not ratify the constitution until the 2nd was added. 
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2009, 10:47:55 PM »

you might also have a different view if you were a prosecutor  smiley
Oddly enough, most gun control laws are proposed and supported by law neforcement, which includes the prosecutors.
Obviuosly my experiences deal w/ disastsers which does skew your perception.
I think it is very important to know that rank and file members of law enforcement nationwide overwhelmingly do NOT support gun control. The upper brass are who you are referring to as they have consistently supported gun control over the years. Which group has more members and which group has more clout in the voting booth? It's not fair to lump all LEO's into the same group on this subject.

Most Professional law enforcement officers suppport the right to carry and as well as the other portions of the 2nd amendment.  Those members of law enforcement who come out against gun ownership whether elected or appointed are doing so for Political reasons.  That means to top enchelon of management not the rank and file.   U find it interesting that the State Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs hardly ever endorse the same candidate the the State Association of Police Officers and Deputy Sheriffs do. 

Here in Seattle the County Executive and the Mayor both are anti-gun, as a result so are the Sheriff and Chief of Police, at least publically.  BTW out Seattle C of P is going to be the new Drug Tzar for the Obama administration, our King County Exectutive (Seattle) is going to be the under-secretary of HUD, and our past governor is up for Commerce Secretary.   All ant--gunners....I think that's the primary requirement for appoint in the Obama white house.
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« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2009, 11:53:56 PM »

IMO if you're willing to shoot an intruder dead a gun may be for you.  If you're not it's stupid to have one though the invader will thank you for it.

SH
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« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2009, 12:13:35 AM »

slaphead, i agree.  it would be dangerous to have a gun and not know that you could use it if you needed to.  one of the 1st gun lessons i got from my father...don't pick the thing  up and point it unless you intend to use it!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2009, 09:33:52 AM »

one of the 1st gun lessons i got from my father...don't pick the thing  up and point it unless you intend to use it!

That is rule #2. 1st rule is, A gun is always loaded.
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« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2009, 09:51:00 AM »

you might also have a different view if you were a prosecutor  smiley
Oddly enough, most gun control laws are proposed and supported by law neforcement, which includes the prosecutors.
Obviuosly my experiences deal w/ disastsers which does skew your perception.
I think it is very important to know that rank and file members of law enforcement nationwide overwhelmingly do NOT support gun control. The upper brass are who you are referring to as they have consistently supported gun control over the years. Which group has more members and which group has more clout in the voting booth? It's not fair to lump all LEO's into the same group on this subject.

Most Professional law enforcement officers suppport the right to carry and as well as the other portions of the 2nd amendment.  Those members of law enforcement who come out against gun ownership whether elected or appointed are doing so for Political reasons.  That means to top enchelon of management not the rank and file.   U find it interesting that the State Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs hardly ever endorse the same candidate the the State Association of Police Officers and Deputy Sheriffs do. 

Here in Seattle the County Executive and the Mayor both are anti-gun, as a result so are the Sheriff and Chief of Police, at least publically.  BTW out Seattle C of P is going to be the new Drug Tzar for the Obama administration, our King County Exectutive (Seattle) is going to be the under-secretary of HUD, and our past governor is up for Commerce Secretary.   All ant--gunners....I think that's the primary requirement for appoint in the Obama white house.

The way obama is going if I was him I would try to take the guns out of the hands of the citizens as well.

Keith
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« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2009, 11:30:02 AM »

you might also have a different view if you were a prosecutor  smiley
Oddly enough, most gun control laws are proposed and supported by law neforcement, which includes the prosecutors.
Obviuosly my experiences deal w/ disastsers which does skew your perception.
I think it is very important to know that rank and file members of law enforcement nationwide overwhelmingly do NOT support gun control. The upper brass are who you are referring to as they have consistently supported gun control over the years. Which group has more members and which group has more clout in the voting booth? It's not fair to lump all LEO's into the same group on this subject.

Most Professional law enforcement officers suppport the right to carry and as well as the other portions of the 2nd amendment.  Those members of law enforcement who come out against gun ownership whether elected or appointed are doing so for Political reasons.  That means to top enchelon of management not the rank and file.   U find it interesting that the State Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs hardly ever endorse the same candidate the the State Association of Police Officers and Deputy Sheriffs do. 

Here in Seattle the County Executive and the Mayor both are anti-gun, as a result so are the Sheriff and Chief of Police, at least publically.  BTW out Seattle C of P is going to be the new Drug Tzar for the Obama administration, our King County Exectutive (Seattle) is going to be the under-secretary of HUD, and our past governor is up for Commerce Secretary.   All ant--gunners....I think that's the primary requirement for appoint in the Obama white house.

The way obama is going if I was him I would try to take the guns out of the hands of the citizens as well.

Keith
After the way this last bill was railroaded through I wouldn't doubt it. They were given a 1200 page bill at midnight and expected to vote on it the next day. ANYTHING could have been hidden in those 1200 pages. Pulling stunts like that is not the best way to gain trust. rolleyes
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« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2009, 11:42:08 AM »

this isn't about "stimulus" and they sure don't care about trust.  this is about ramming as many far left programs through as they can.  we will be stuck with this crap forever and most people won't even know where it came from.
the governors turning down some of this money have it right.  there are strings attached.....or chains.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2009, 01:07:49 PM »

Kathy:

I sure hope you'll come into the new text chat room - I think we'll see record numbers of people in there that night(s) - for me it will be a thrill just to have a little access to your thinking "live" Iam so a fan of your thinking.

The LEFT is truly the problem in most of these cases in this and other related posts. The right didn't do so well under 8 years of W. and it has scarred it some, opening the door for left thinking to step in and convert fence hoppers.

It is sad to live through 8 to 16 years of the rule of ONE PARTY THINKING only to spend the following 4 converting over or back to the ways of the opposition. Life is so short that we hardly get to see the ball swing from right to left enough times in our life to objectively see why the lines are drawn where they are and of course that is where studying history (as you clearly have a passion for) brings light to an otherwise foggy vision.

I have said limiting (not stopping) but limiting ammo to some realist number (somewhere between a daily arsonal of practice fire ammo and a compound able to stand of any faction trying to rob us of our rights) is what could be helpful in both protecting those willing to fight for the rights of the second ammendment and those trying to rid citizens of their fought for rights.

It isn't the well armed citizens that scare me, especially those who are sane and cometent in the use of their arms, it is the people who choose to interpret the rights to include anything that goes boom and that could be a fire cracker to a heat seeking nuclear warhead. I'm an outsider, but does the NRA really represent Joe American or are they off the wall like the PITAs and the NAMBLAs and the ACLUs of the world. I added NAMBLA because when it comes to talking EXTREME, no group of sick and twisted people better point out extremism that these creeps.

Just a thought, maybe a question or two - mostly though a wish that you join us in text chat sometime, you and all the regulars that I have seen for so many years and never had the chance to communicate live with. Fingers crossed we get that chance some time.

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« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2009, 01:41:04 PM »

All due respect to the beemaster.... I love this site!...  But thats insane........   You do relaize How many liberials that need shot??   thats a lot of ammo!......  Seriously though  limiting ammo would  be like rationing gass to keep everyone out of washington at teh same time.....  insane....    the reality of ammo (from former soldier)   is what you can carry.  100 rds of 50 cal,  300 ronds of m16   what ever....  thats a real pratical limit.   
I am 100 times more worried about the 53% taxes I pay now and the army of whomever that will apear if I refuse  than the one loon down the street.......  You do realize the founders created the boston tea party over a 1% tax???

And Here I am support some illeagal  in a nice home in southern CA  with 53% of my tax dollars....  and even better the Moron teachers who don't want to keep score, but teach sex ed,   supported by my property taxes.....  thats the scary stuff

When  (and we are there now) the  people who don't pay taxes get to vote  we are screwed.......  If your not paying taxes you shouldn't get to vote....   and those of who do should get all the ammo  we can carry..........

Charlie
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« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2009, 02:07:58 PM »

Charlie:

No offense taken of course, our motto (one of many) is to agree to disagree.

I don't though see the connection of voting to ammon or gun possession. Lots of citizens don't chose to vote, nor do they want anything to do with Jury Duty - the two things our government asks of us, few really want to participate - although the same people who won't serve jury duty are the first to complain when murderers walk the street and of course the  few who choose to not vote complain about Obama being president.

Doing both are civic duties and just because you exercise that right (and rights can and are taken away - ask any felon about gun possession, voting and jury rights after serving their sentences) supposedly they have completed their punnishment, yet they have lost rights.

I would never call your thinking insane though, saying that you disagree is much nicer in a family friendly site, but either way - mentally unstable people vote, I don't see that being a ticket to be allowed gun possession, surely more should be involved than that.

I'm not for the "If you take guns away from law abiding citizens, only the bad guys have guns" thinking either. I believe people should have a means of protection, use it when necessary, practice all you wish - but in life we recognise the difference in small amounts of marajuana possession vs. possession pounds and truckloads. Their has to be a limit to some things. It isn't the personal rights issue that scares me, it is the advocates that shoot for the moon, is their belief so strong in gun laws that they strive for WMDs as protected by the Constitution or are they just lining their pockets with billions sent in to them by members who can barely afford to arm themselves, meanwhile the NRAs of the world have buildings in Washington, DC as LARGE as any government office building there - I have been to the NRA building in DC, the members sure bought them a nice place and I'm sure with that comes some absurd salaries.

I'm not comparing NRA and NAMBLA except to say they are both radical, no less than ACLU or green peace. I remember when Joan Rivers had a PITA person toss paint on her fur, claiming fur kills animals, she said "No S**T, about two dozen are going to die to replace this fur you idiot, have a nice day!"

wait until nationalized heath care comes and it is called a RIGHT, then a 6 hour delay at the doctors office and 3 days in the emergency waiting room will be the norm. We can't afford this war and health care too. I'd raqther be deeply in debt making people well, but it is unlikely that we'll ever get out of this hole dug in the sands of Iraq.
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