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Author Topic: Israel /Hammas War  (Read 11539 times)
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2009, 09:40:27 PM »

At least we have a new president who is sure to be able to bring peace to the area along with all of the other miracles he will be performing.

Another dreamer heard from.  The middle east is such a hot bed of hypocrisy that it will never stop simmering until the end of the world (as we know it).

They condemn Israel for defending itself against terrorist, calling the victims the terrorists. 

Personally, If I were an Israeli I'd tell the rest of the world to take a hike.  If they want to really stop the terrorism and slaughter of "innocents" then they should put pressure on the Palestinians who are the ones repeatedly instigating the trouble.  I think I'd tell the rest of the world to send their navies to pick up any surviving swimmers after every body, brick, door, window, and floor board had been bulldozed into the Mediterranean Sea.
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Keith13
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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2009, 08:09:27 AM »

Listening to NPR on the way home from work,

Well theres your problem Wink

Keith
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« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2009, 10:56:26 AM »

Quote
THEN STOP FIRING OFF ROCKETS YOU BRAINLESS
And let the other Arab State take them in (or bulldoze 1.5 million people into the sea, which is half the number of people murdered at Auschwitz)

That's the big points many American neoconservatives make. It's like all dark skinned Spanish speakers to many Americans. They think they're all the same. But under historic Western law you can't remove the ancient boundary stone. You just can't take someone whom you feel to be inferior and push him into another country or into the sea and take their land.

Everyone's got their own theories and biases, but at the end of the day those Palestinians aren't going anywhere. The many American Christians don't think more than 5 years into the future, since they believe they will be Raptured before then and won't have to live with the repercussions of their actions, and the Jewish Zionists are leaning on the US like their ancestors leaned on Egypt to protect them from Babylon, and the results will be the same.

Stateless people are under a lot of stress, and it makes them act irrationally. After WW1 many Jews living in the West as refugees were citizens of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. When Poland was carved out of mostly that Empire those Jews suddenly had no passports, and Poland didn't frankly want them. The French said they couldn't stay, the Germans pushed them towards Poland and the Poles wouldn't take them in. The sat in a Gaza type refugee camp and were kept alive by international aid.

The reason that I bring this trivia up is some of the history buffs might know where I'm going. A man from this Stateless population was named Hershel Greenspan and he became deranged and murdered the German consul in France, which was the reason for Hitler's 1,000,000,000 Mark fine on the collective German Jewish population.

We'd all agree that the German response was not proportionate. So I'd submit that if we were all to take our current biases off for a bit and look at what's going on with the Gaza population, and start looking at facts, like that over the last 8 years Israel has been fighting Hamas that the kill rate is 150 to 1 in Israel's favor etc... that there is some disproportionality taking place, and it would be in everyone's interest to curb it.

But hey, I'm just a contractor who does bees for a sideline. Perhaps genocide is the answer.
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Keith13
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« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2009, 11:02:47 AM »

I agree it has been 150 to 1 but the thing is it is 150 masked terrorist to 1 civilian
Israel goes after terrorist hamas attacks civilians

Keith
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« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2009, 11:13:05 AM »

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I agree it has been 150 to 1 but the thing is it is 150 masked terrorist to 1 civilian
Israel goes after terrorist hamas attacks civilians
Hi Keith, the last figures I saw indicated the number of women and kids under 12 that are killed by both sides are about the same. Do you have any breakdown of the numbers?
Thanks
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Keith13
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« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2009, 11:33:41 AM »

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,476664,00.html

The article does a good job of mentioning casualties. In some areas of 500 dead 400 are militants. One of the problems with IDing terrorist is if Israel was to shell an area by time the ground troops get there to ID people all the weapons are gone and all the people are poor farmers dead at the hands of Israel. Hamas plays the media like a fine violin. The world has already determined hamas are poor victims with no state, what they fail to realize is hamas initiated this war.
My daddy always told me if you go along and poke a bear with a stick don't cry we he eats you, and definitely don't cry about being a victim.
Also another little trick hamas likes to do is place civilians as shields against attacks. So sorry but guess what that is called? Collateral damage, should Israel try to avoid it? Sure, should Israel risk her soldiers lives because of it? No.
War is a terrible thing people need to realize people die in wars that is why they are avoided but once a war is begun it needs to be completed.

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2009, 12:27:05 PM »

timv, i am always interested when i read posts like yours, to know what you think would be a good solution?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2009, 12:30:34 PM »

Disproportionate


Just remember when three people come gunning for you that you only shoot one of them. Would want it to be disproportionate.  rolleyes
 
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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2009, 02:36:26 PM »

It kind of reminds me of mosquitoes.  I can handle one or two.  I'm going to get annoyed and start slapping at 4 or 5.  But if I have more than 10 or 20 or so attacking me then I'm going to get drastic.  Bugs that aren't biting me are going to die along with the mosquitoes  shocked

If the hamas terrrorists don't care for their own life, they sure as shooting don't give a plugged fig for the life of all of the civilians there.

Yes I feel horrible for the families and the innocent civilians that are getting crushed between two hard rocks.  But the rocket-firing mosquitoes have to be exterminated.

Yes, I do see the media displaying the more emotional side of things.  Bigtime.

I think that they could have had their own state by now.
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Rick
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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2009, 05:07:41 PM »

Yes its disproportionate. But Jews  recall the day when the world sat by and did nothing to help them. So you'll have to excuse them if they dont trust anyone and will care for themselves. If the arab world could obliterate them they would and do try. I highly doubt our country would be so patient and magnanimous if Canada were sending suicide bombers everyday into Starbucks and diners. Isreal was created b/c no countries wanted them in sufficient numbers. They will not expect or count on other countries being so "kind" again in the future. Some may say our reaction to 9/11 is disproportionate. Isreal really doess have  genuine survival issue on their hands and wont wait until the bitter end to fight back this time or ever again.

I agree w/ Kathy- whats your solution?
When Arab nations had Jerusalem, no one was able to visit the brithplace of not one, but two religions. Now the world can visit this amazing place. The arabs still have a sand box even w/ oil wealth. Isreal has created gardens and orchards etc. They have strived to make a country when their budget is largely military, little to no natural resources and very few countries acting as their friend.
and yes, some americans only want Isreal to exist so they can die for their collective religious glory, but not the majority.
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« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2009, 07:32:20 PM »

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I agree w/ Kathy- whats your solution?


Quote
If the arab world could obliterate them they would and do try.

First, I'd study the matter from different sides before I recommended genocide, but that's the conservative Calvinistic Presbyterian in me.

The Arabs could have murdered all the Jews living among them hundreds of years ago. They've had 14 hundred years to do it, and they haven't. In fact, when the Catholics kicked the Jews and Muslims out of Spain in the late 15th century, the only people that welcomed those Muslims and Jews were Arabs, and a significant population of Israel Jews are descended from those Iberian refugees, who are called Sephardi Jews.

So, with respect I would say that you haven't given the matter as much thought as would be appropriate given your solution.

Kathy, I really don't have a solution. The world won't allow a genocide there, whether you want one or not, and Arabs are going to keep on out breeding Jews, like Catholics are outbreeding Protestants in Northern Ireland. It's pretty much a given. So we can blow off steam and call for mass murder, or something else.

I'd personally hope that Israel would see that giving up quite a bit of land that they control to get out from under the inevitable demographic time bomb would be worth it. Give up East Jerusalem, and create a contiguous Palestine. Tie it in with internationally backed peace treaties, and let the Palestinians run their own country on the Muslim model (which guarantees poverty and backwardness) and get on with living in a smaller state, which could be like a Singapore.

But no one is going to listen to me, and the hatred level will be ratcheted up until...well, as I've said, I'm a WW2 buff, and I'm pretty sure I know what's going to happen within the next 20 years.

Quote
Yes I feel horrible for the families and the innocent civilians that are getting crushed between two hard rocks.  But the rocket-firing mosquitoes have to be exterminated.
We're on the same page, with the exception that I hope both sides get blistered until the act like Christians, which won't happen anytime soon. Too much mindless hatred.
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« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2009, 09:30:31 PM »

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The Arabs could have murdered all the Jews living among them hundreds of years ago

first lets make a distinction between arabs and muslims, and further, make a distinction between muslims and radical islamist.  while the beliefs of the radicals are held by a majority, it is a minority that actually acts on those beliefs.  however, when you have billions of muslims, a very small  minority is still a very large number.

to your first point:  both arabs and muslims have tried and failed.

Quote
I'd personally hope that Israel would see that giving up quite a bit of land that they control to get out from under the inevitable demographic time bomb would be worth it. Give up East Jerusalem, and create a contiguous Palestine. Tie it in with internationally backed peace treaties, and let the Palestinians run their own country on the Muslim model (which guarantees poverty and backwardness) and get on with living in a smaller state, which could be like a Singapore.

yes, what they have given up so far has really helped.  and remember those un observers in lebanon who watched the terrorists prepare to attack.  they said nothing because it was their job to "observe".

we should be a little quiet about all of this.  mexico might decide that the way to get texas and california back is to start lobbing rockets over the border.  then we'll have to throw in arizona and new mexico so that they can have a shorter trip between the first two?

what israel should have done is to never give up anything until they had all the agreements in place.   when they had the chance, they should have taken all of jeruselem and held the dome hostage to such agreements.  instead, they went out of their way to not interfere with muslim worship and have since gone out of their way to displace their own people to give the "palestinians" a home....all this done with no assurance of their own safety.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2009, 09:55:53 PM »

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first lets make a distinction between arabs and muslims, and further, make a distinction between muslims and radical islamist.  while the beliefs of the radicals are held by a majority, it is a minority that actually acts on those beliefs.  however, when you have billions of muslims, a very small  minority is still a very large number.

to your first point:  both arabs and muslims have tried and failed.
Kathy, with respect, could you write in more standard English? I'm afraid I didn't understand your post. There have been millions of Jews living in Arab controlled lands for 14 centuries, and they could have been killed off, but are still there. So no educated person who's studied the issue, especially Jewish scholars (who still blame the holocaust in part on Christianity) would agree with you. Even Iran has by law a mandatory Jewish member of Parliament (yes, Iran isn't Arab). Is there some point that you are making that I don't see?
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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2009, 10:21:10 PM »

Quote
Quote
Is there some point that you are making that I don't see?


yes


Kathy, with respect, could you write in more standard English?


no
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2009, 12:00:42 AM »

In order to settle a dispute both sides have to be willing to compromise in order to reach an agreement.

When one side refuses to consider compromise, insisting on eradication, there is no solution short of obliteration. 

That is the current situation between the Palestinians and the Israelis. 

Politically correct people call that genocide.

Everybody is entitled to self-defense against an aggressor. 

On that note Israel is justified in the action it's taking.  The fact that the Palestinians hide arms in Mosques, schools, hospitals, and homes, from which they plan and initiated raids makes them more reprehensible, IMO, because they intentionally endanger the "innocent" in an attempt to protect themselves.  In my book that is extremely cowardly behavior.

If a person wants to defend such reprehensible behavior, that's up to them, but I deplore it and will say so loud and clear.
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« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2009, 10:57:16 AM »

Israel is a terrorist nation born of terrorism. The Philistine/Palestinian people have always lived in that region and for the most part lived with the Jews, who came in smiting and smoting, in almost unbroken harmony for centuries.  Long before the Holocaust the Zionists began a movement that would result in a homeland for the Jews.  In 1948 hordes of European jews poured into Palestine taking homes by force, moving in to houses farms and homes vacated by their Arab owners by force.  How would the people of Boring and Anacortes like that one I wonder.  I bet that would have them dusting off grandad's Winchester.  Walk half a mile in someone elses Mukluks and see how it feels.
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« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2009, 11:46:37 AM »

hongsi, you show a remarkable lack of knowledge of history.  perhaps you were educated in a madrasa??  if the extent of historical knowledge is from 1948 to now, i might even think you were educated in american public schools!!

according to archaeological evidence, how long have the jews live in the area of palestine?  who are the current "palestinians"?  what is the evidence for a nation of palestine? 

it is true that "hordes of european jews" move into the land promised to them by the UN.  they did not displace the arabs living there.  the reason the homes were vacated was that the arabs fled on warning from the surrounding arab countries.  those countries then proceded to attack israel.  now....if those arab countries had spent their resources on creating a place for THIER palestinian problem, as they were supposed to according to the UN agreement, those folks would now have a nice, big, nation.  75% of the land was supposed to go to make a palestinian nation.

at the risk of reapeating myself.....

the arab countries had a palestinian problem pre-WW2 because the "palestinian movement" was an islamic movement.  they wanted to create a united islamic nation called palestine.  they tried to achieve their goals by terrorist means against ARAB COUNTRIES.  they were expelled or jailed.  the palestinian refugees were refugees from ARAB countries.  when the nation of israel was formed, arab countries pointed  these already formed terrorist groups at israel.  not only was this a distraction from attacking arab countries, but it gave islamist groups a fund raiser any time they wanted on. 
"look at the poor palestinians and how badly they are treated"  and money would poor in for the next jihad.

jews actually started returning to THIER homeland in numbers, in the 1920's.  many were russian jews who were being persecuted.  they lived in peace with arabs and worked together to improve what was a useless piece of land at the time.  it was the arabs issue with the palestinian movement that caused the problems, and it was the arab countries choice to attack israel rather than create a place for their exiles that exacerbated the problem.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2009, 12:28:46 PM »

The bablyonians started it!!  That is what is today Iraq, right? rolleyes

Or wait, was it the Exodus that really started it... huh

I do feel personally, and I think others here have expressed the sentiment as well, that peace will never be achieved in the region.  And if it is, then it is time to be afraid...very afraid....
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« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2009, 12:29:49 PM »

You know what?  You are ALL correct.  The Jews have been searching for their promised land for thousands of years.  They have killed for it and took lands over belonging to others.  Then they were vanquished.  And now they are back.

By the way, hongsi, your statement is correct about the Jews using terrorist tactics and invading the Palestinians/Philistines and others.

Now lets see...Jews, 11/12 Tribes...I believe they used to kill themselves for sleeping with their wives, jealousy, control,etc...

The way I see it...The Jews now have Israel.  Lets call it one of the conquering tribes.  Spoils of war...The Palestinians/terrorists stay on their side and Jerusalem becomes a neutral ground so that all religions throughout the world can go and pay homage.  I am really interested in the secrets and what is hidden inside the Mosque.

I also agree with all your statements about letting Israel go do their thing.  The reason this is dragging on so long is because "of the innocent people getting killed".  There is no such thing as innocent people when you believe in a "cause".  If you hide among the innocent you still deserve to die.  Everyone should mind their own business and let Israel do what it must.
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« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2009, 05:34:26 PM »

I guess  since Hammas has launched 6000 rockets into civilian areas since Israel backed out of Gaza,the only thing I see has been serious restraint by the leadership of Israel.The people firing the rockets shamelessly hide among civilians and today have been firing rockets fronm within a UN school.Both serious infractions of International law.
 At least Israel has a uniformed soldier doing the fighting and is trying to minimize civilian casualties.They do have the ability do completely annihilate the Gaza area and much more which they have not done.
 So much for the land for peace deal.Israel can not expect peace until they are driven into the sea.
 As Kathy mentioned,could you imagine if rockets were fired at our civilian population by an enemy sworn to destroy us and we sat by and allowed it?Not in my America I hope!!
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