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Author Topic: Israel /Hammas War  (Read 12383 times)
TimV
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« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2009, 11:29:26 AM »

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Anybody that starts throwing insults like that about either side really shows their true colors (rainbow?), and it sure isn't how you just described him. 

Sounds like a typical professor from a typical college/university.  That is why I trust very few in the ivory towers.  Or should I say Isengard....

Wow. I didn't think Pat Buchanan type traditional conservatives where held in such contempt in the agricultural community. I guess we all hang around people whom we have the most in common with, but here in my county (SLO is very conservative) my Ron Paul bumper sticker gets me waves and thumb's ups. And among my contractor friends I can't think of any who supported either McCain or Obama. We didn't really see any difference in the economy (bail out support) or foreign policy between the two and mostly voted for third parties that wanted smaller government, dismantling of the Patriot Act, a Washingtonian foreign policy (no foreign entanglements) and sound money.

I admit we lost badly, though.
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« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2009, 11:35:16 AM »

brian, calvanists believe in predestination.  it's  nice.  takes all the effort out of salvation.  you are either picked or not.


Oh boy, now you're opening a can of worms...I'm Calvinist too, and I know I can't save myself, its what follows salvation that takes all the work! tongue

And I'm not sure what to think about the Gaza thing, other than shooting rockets at a military machine is suicide and has to stop before anything will happen.  I slap bugs that bite me, not ususally ones that don't.

Rick
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« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2009, 11:48:48 AM »

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Anybody that starts throwing insults like that about either side really shows their true colors (rainbow?), and it sure isn't how you just described him. 

Sounds like a typical professor from a typical college/university.  That is why I trust very few in the ivory towers.  Or should I say Isengard....

Wow. I didn't think Pat Buchanan type traditional conservatives where held in such contempt in the agricultural community.

I never said I hold anybody in contempt! (and am not really part of any agricultural community) I did say I trust very few colleges which do tend to be liberal institutions.  And the paragraph written did sound an awful lot like something from a liberal college professor, with lots of strong insults for a typically conservative cause.  Perhaps he differs on just this one issue, I don't have any idea of his other issues, but language like that makes me wonder....


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« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2009, 12:28:54 PM »


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_lebanon_analysis


Analysis: Lebanese rockets raise fear of 2nd front
By MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer

NAHARIYA, Israel – Residents of this northern Israeli town awoke Thursday to one of their country's worst nightmares: Rockets from Lebanon, and the possibility of a second front in a battle that has raged for two weeks in Gaza.

No armed group claimed responsibility for the two Katyusha rockets that lightly injured two Israelis. But the most likely suspects were small Palestinian factions operating in south Lebanon and known to possess Katyushas.

The Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, which fought a 34-day war with Israel in 2006, denied it was behind the attack. But Hezbollah has been suspected in the past by Israel and its opponents in Lebanon of using allied radical groups to irritate Israel with a lower risk of retaliation.

Quiet returned to the border after a brief retaliation by Israeli artillery. But the point had been made: Israel may be tied up in an offensive in the Gaza Strip in the south aimed at halting rocket fire from Hamas, but millions more Israelis are vulnerable to rockets from Lebanon to the north of its border.

Israel now faces threats on two of its borders from Islamic organizations with close ties to Iran. Hamas rockets threaten about 1 million Israelis in the south out of a population of 7 million, and Israel's military believes that the rockets in the Hezbollah's arsenal can hit most of the remaining 6 million.

"We're all a bit traumatized at the moment," said Sarit Arieli, 44, who awoke to the sound of the rocket's impact in the border town of Nahariya and was standing outside the nursing home it hit several hours later. But she added, "I think we're stronger than them."

The rockets were fired from territory under Hezbollah's de facto control. But Hezbollah — which ignited the devastating war in the summer of 2006 that left swaths of Lebanon in ruins — has said it does not want to drag the country into another conflict.

Backed by Iran and Syria, Hezbollah likely wants to avoid damaging its newfound standing as a credible player on Lebanon's political stage. After showing its military strength against Israel in 2006 and then again in May 2008 against its Lebanese rivals — when it took control of large parts of Beirut by force — Hezbollah is now a partner in Lebanon's government with veto power over all decisions.

Its leaders have been making do with fiery speeches.

One of the small radical groups in Lebanon allied with Hezbollah, the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, had warned it might open other fronts against Israel if the Gaza offensive continues.

Its officials refused to deny or confirm they were behind the rocket attack. But spokesman Anwar Raja in Syria seemed to voice support, telling the AP it was "a natural outcome ... of the Israeli aggression."

Lebanon has the most to lose from a new war, having only recently begun recovering from the ravages of the last one. Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said Thursday the rocket fire "is the work of parties who stand to lose from the continued stability in Lebanon."

Israel, too, does not appear to be eager for a second fight.

"Even though we have the ability to respond with great force, the response needs to be carefully considered and responsible," Cabinet minister Meir Sheetrit told Army Radio. "We don't need to play into their hands."

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« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2009, 12:40:10 PM »

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I've quoted two leading traditional conservative commentators


no, you did not.

 
Quote
and doesn't consider the necon Jews conservative. As I've said, they tend to be big government, pro gay marriage, pro abortion proponents of foreign entanglements
.

they are hawks on defense and liberal on social issues....and not all are jewish.

Quote
If those people were to recognize Israel would you support their right to go home as full citizens of Israel with voting rights if they could prove they were kicked out against their will?
 
israel has the right to decide who lives in their country and who votes.  the consideration might be valid if they had not had multiple arab countries descend on them like a swarm and try to destroy them.  it is also impractical.  it would be like inviting the mexicans to move back in and claim bits of texas because their kin used to live there and the land was lost in war.  nice idea, but no going to fly.

Quote
That doesn't seem too much to ask.

neither is it to much to ask that israel not be continually attacked.  i'd think that would be a really good first step.

here is my non-neocon position.  

israel has the right to defend itself.  it has the right to take and hold lands that will make it more secure, especially when those lands are used as a launching point for attacks.  they have the right to decide who will live in their country and under what circumstances.  they have the right to close their borders and withhold aid from those who desire their destruction and act on that stated desire.

here is the hamas charter with commentary

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

again, without commentary

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html


Quote
Oh boy, now you're opening a can of worms...


not my intention  smiley

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2009, 02:36:09 PM »


It's just that you really don't seem to have any position.
Funny, I understand Kathy's position clearly, and agree with it.  I wonder why you can't see it?  Perhaps because you are the one scattered all over the place.

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« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2009, 03:49:16 PM »

I haven't read a single reply to this post, I'll be doing it tonight what I get home from work - I'll let "Mike" my text to speech ATT&T voice read it to me (yes, I'm using a pro-voice now instead of my long time friend Free Hal) the difference is remarkable, but of course I need to reteach it pronounciation, I had hundreds of words tweaked with Hal and it was AIRCHAIR COPY all the way. Mike is a bit tougher to change the pronounciation of vords on - I think most is my fault though, it has a force resolution and boxes and text often occupy the same space - I need to work on that.

But about this latest conflict, one of a million either before or after this one... We will again stand behind Israel as it is our on secured foxhole in the Middle East, soon to be a second in Iraq (if only in the opinions of the neighbors of Iraq) but the US wants foxholes there - I think there are too many Biblical Doomsdayers, one about to leave office in less than 2 weeks) and of course those clandestine groups that usually never surface and enjoy their few minutes of fame in the Enquirer type mags.

We always have had our heads up the butt of Israel, we give them weapons that are one tick away from highly classified, supply them with everything they need to defend themselve - even weapons that are capable of EXTREME OFFENSIVE ACTS. How many times have we done that in the last decades alone, giving people thought to be friendly weapons that eventually were turned around and used on us.

The only good thing about localized fights that Israel fight is they will keep the nucs tucked away or self annilation is probable. The scary fighting is when Israel are battling factions far from home, it's those who might be turned to dust, and then the SELF FULLING PROFITS will get their wish and see the END DAYS fall upon the Earth.

I don't believe there will ever be an answer and the US will never have the trust of the majority of the Middle East as long as we are such  supporters of Israel.

As much as I wish the United Nations would go to one of the wussie Norwegian countries and do their BS there, let those NEUTRAL "we don't have an opinion countries, as the UN" host the JUSTICE LEAGUE - meanwhile, let the US get back to fixing the US and let the rest of the world fix or disappear from Earth. So many civilizations have come and gone, I would guess many times more civilizations have disappeared from the Earth than exist today - they didn't have the USA to save them and I think it is time we say "World, do what you have to do to survive or die, we are owned by the Chinese primarilly and our debt only grows every day" when the Chinese decide to call in our markers, what then - oh yeah, we'll just print up more worthless paper and pay them off - I'm sure that will work - ugh.

My whole point, Israel is extremely well equiped to take on just about anyone, thanks to us over 5 or 6 decades now. What we need to do is let the UN handle any issues of violence and we need to stay the hell out of it. Just answer me this, how prepared are we to take on a world of hurting tossed upon us, if I can't even carry on a plastic bear jar of honey on a plane? Our way of stopping terrorism has turned to stealth and blatant ways of observing our own people, meanwhile 98% of all ships entering our ports are NEVER checked.

We can't fight other people's battles any more, we have enough of our own and most people don't even agree why we are fighting where we are fighting and for good reason. Bush's way of battling terrorism reminds me of a great old pun. A boy is searching the roof top for a quarter he lost in the basement. When asked when is he looking there instead of the basement, he replies "Because the light is much better here!" I really that that explains bush better than any metaphor I have heard. I won't miss him as President, and on the flip side - schools in NJ (I don't know about everywhere else) is having Inagruation Day off, so the kids (as if they will do this) sit home and watch this historical moment. Couldn't we make a day for Obama like we have for every other president when he has ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING GREAT?

I wish him and his administration all the best, we need someone to turn this country around and I hope it is him, but stop comparing a guy who hasn't been sworn in yet to Presidents who accomplished great things during their terms. I just don't understand, are we suppose to have  a school day off JUST to show a black man is capable of becoming President of our Country? To me that is sad if that is the case, it just feeds into the stereotype that whites think blacks are unequal, something that keeps gangs and innercity kids from becoming what gifts they have from reaching their full potential. Racial hatred cripples everyone, and no one more so than a kid spoon fed that whitey hates them and they will never suceed because of that - decades of biggotry can handicap brilliant minds, hatred of others in such a miraculous place as the United States insults us all. I want every child to exceed in what ever it is they are good at, we need this to be competitive in the future, not stunt the educational growth of a child because of your own hatred toward another race.

That's it.... I spewed on the topic and others, I'll listen to the other posts as mentioned later with my text to speech reader, which I use for about 80% or more of the forum content and all of Cindis Smiley



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« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2009, 05:16:59 PM »

only one comment your your post, BM.  needless to say, i disagree with most of it.  smiley

we should remember that no social structure can stand a lack of leadership.  it does not matter whether it's a family, country, or the world.  leadership is sometimes taken by force.  sometimes given freely.  most often, it is taken by people who take advantage of the ignorance and apathy of a population.  if the US chooses not to be engaged in world matters, and to leave security and laws to the UN, we will truly be in trouble.  look at the list of UN member countries and tell me how you think the US and the few other democratic counties, israel included, would fare if the UN were the sole arbiter of security and international law?

someone will lead.  who would you trust?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2009, 05:45:03 PM »

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We always have had our heads up the butt of Israel, we give them weapons that are one tick away from highly classified, supply them with everything they need to defend themselve - even weapons that are capable of EXTREME OFFENSIVE ACTS. How many times have we done that in the last decades alone, giving people thought to be friendly weapons that eventually were turned around and used on us.
Exactly. And that's why Jonathan Pollard is still in jail, that Israel isn't even satisfied with the almost classified stuff; they've got to steal all of it.

So I'm not the only traditional conservative here it seems.
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« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2009, 05:45:21 PM »

Kathy:

I will never pretend to know world issues as you do - I would be fooling no one if I were to think or say so. But the US has taken the role of WORLD POLICE to the dismay of MOST of the countries on Earth. I dispise the UN and have said before that on 9-11 if those planes had crashed into the UN Building instead, it would be a very different world.

I just don't know if you noticed, but we don't have the greatest track record on winning wars, countless thousands have died as we pulled out from various places we went in to with all the intention to save or form a democratic state.

No I don't trust the UN, but if the kept their nose out of our business, then I think we'd find it alot easier keeping our noses out of others.

I don't know if we were predestined to be the world police, or it was just something that happened, or even if it is just something that most Americans believe to be.

I just think that the time and energy of our military, the cost to the American People and the future of our commerce has been changed by a war that we targetted so wrongly. A trillion and a half in debt and growing, unknown hard times ahead, meanwhile infrastructure has gone to crap, and we all will be feeling the stench of the Bush Administration for decades.

I believe we all get wrapped into the HERE AND NOW and assume we have to make the world this democratic place it isn't meant to be - if it was in the cards, why is it the way it is. Surely, this is all a creation of man's inhumanity to man and not of God's Will - you say you don't follow the Bible much beyond its historical value, I fear that every generation has concidared THEIR generation those which the end-times speak of. It is self fullfilling proficy that always scares me, especially with those who have the firepower to make the difference.

Is the US foolish to start a third world war over Israel, and if so WHY because some intreptation says it is our job. Well, in the same way of thinking, then it is written we will not win in the end. Why go to war if you know you are going to lose, especially if it isn't in yur own yard.

Just because WE CAN police the world, does that make us obligated to do so???

I wrote most of this rehtorical, I really don't want to hear the answer - I should stay away from politics because I just don't get why we do what we do - except to know it make many people rich and many more dead.
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« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2009, 06:45:38 PM »

oh ya, but you can't post something and not get an answer!!  do you want me to chew my fingers off??   evil  just don't read my posts...i won't mind....

we don't win wars because we have forgotten how.  when a country goes to war, it needs to go with the idea of winning.  to win, you have to kill people and break things.  if you are not willing to do that, you should not go to war.  that is why i am so  happy that the members of my family are getting out of the military.  it is not peace keeping that we train for.  send actors for that.

neither should we be the world police.  we should only engage when it is in our interest, and then we should be prepared to do the above.

the spy issue is kind of bogus.  all countries spy on all other countries.  thats as it has always been and always will be.

people seem to think that the flow of 'stuff' is a one way street out of the US and into israel.  we get much in return.  info, training, and they tend to take our weapons systems and make great improvements on them.  we also are big supporters of jordan.  in return, we get great intel from them and joint operations when needed.  jordan, israel, and to some extent, egypt, are our window into what is happening in places like syria.

i understand the urge to withdraw from world involvement.  i often feel it.  then i do a little "it's a wonderful life" exercise and in my mind remove the US from the word picture.  it's never a pretty picture.

i am sure that many countries will never be able to achieve any form of democracy.  i'm not sure some should even try.  i do think that we have a moral obligation to support those that have achieved it (israel, for instance) and those who are trying to get there. 


timv, i'm pretty sure you don't fall into the traditional Conservative slot. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2009, 07:33:12 PM »

KathyP, you should tell that to Pat Buchanan, I'm sure he'd use that little piece of data to further his ends on making Armageddon come sooner.  You take the USA out of the role of World Policeman and it will go to  banana devil in a hurry. 
I'm beginning to think that TimV and Buchanan have a lot in common, both seem to want to see the end of the world, the sooner the better.  I hate to break it to them but it ain't going to be like they think it is.

I believe in the King James version of the Bible as the word of God in so much as it is correctly translated.   But even I know enough about foreign languages to understand that translation can be wrought with miscommunications. 
I.E. When the translator decides to use one word of the 12 or so in Greek that describe wine in its various states from Welsh grade juice to barfohal this get a bit out of kilter when people reading the translated version decide to take it literally.
Kill=murder, slay, homicide, manslaughter, selfdefense, negligent homicide, etc.  So if you want to take the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill" literally I guess that means you believe in becoming a lamb being led to slaughter.  I see a big difference between killing somebody just because I can and killing someone in order to prevent them from killing me.
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« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2009, 07:43:55 PM »

I wrote most of this rehtorical, I really don't want to hear the answer - I should stay away from politics because I just don't get why we do what we do - except to know it make many people rich and many more dead.

Same reason they save animals  Jerry
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« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2009, 08:09:59 PM »

While people compare conservative philosophy and christian understanding old men women and children are being slaughtered by the terrorist state of Israel.  This morning BBC has children holding on to their dead mothers in the streets of Gaza.  Anybody who can condone this action should seek help.  It sickens me.
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« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2009, 08:17:30 PM »

would those be like the photoshopped pictures from lebanon?

it's simple.  don't pitch rockets at civilians and you won't get shot.  pitch rockets and hide like cowards among civilians and everyone becomes a potential causality.

take a swig of pepto and stop watching bbc.  both will help your stomach.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2009, 08:31:12 PM »

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I'm beginning to think that TimV and Buchanan have a lot in common, both seem to want to see the end of the world,
Brian, I've noticed from posts here and on another section of this board that you just kind of write what every happens to be in your head at the moment. May I ask you educational background?
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« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2009, 08:33:07 PM »

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it's simple.  don't pitch rockets at civilians and you won't get shot.  pitch rockets and hide like cowards among civilians and everyone becomes a potential causality.
Kathy's world is very simple. Do what the Israelis say and don't complain. Then everything will sort itself out. Must be nice.
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« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2009, 08:34:24 PM »

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I'm beginning to think that TimV and Buchanan have a lot in common, both seem to want to see the end of the world,
Brian, I've noticed from posts here and on another section of this board that you just kind of write what every happens to be in your head at the moment. May I ask you educational background?

I've noticed you are really concerned about the education of everyone.
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« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2009, 09:09:12 PM »

Hey Buster!!
 I'm a "Biblical Doomsdayer" and theres not too many of me!(Are there?) Smiley
Now, I'm OCD on 2012 also......You guys are freakin' me out!
 Please dont make me express my opinion on whats going on over there!!
I TOLD YOU!!..and you didnt believe me!!and you had to ask!!!(didnt you?)
Well,...here it is......Its all part of something only God knows the answer to!
 We all can only speculate as to why this is happening! But pretty soon we're gonna have the answer to all our questions!!

(Kinda like that, BM?) Wink
Ok...Thats all...I gotta get some hoarding started for 2012!

your friend,
john
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« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2009, 11:13:50 PM »

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I'm beginning to think that TimV and Buchanan have a lot in common, both seem to want to see the end of the world,
Brian, I've noticed from posts here and on another section of this board that you just kind of write what every happens to be in your head at the moment. May I ask you educational background?

I've noticed you are really concerned about the education of everyone.

Agreed. I bet I did better on the beemaster test than you did. Tongue
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