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Author Topic: Israel /Hammas War  (Read 11505 times)
gaucho10
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« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2009, 06:51:37 PM »

buzzbee---As you can see, the people firing the rockets hide behind civilians, but not shamelessly.  They don't give a hoot.  They have been brought up (educated) like that and so have 90 % of their neighbors and relatives.  That is their way of life!  I find it hard to believe that they actually understand your statement of "serious infractions of International Law".

Your statement---"They do have the ability do completely annihilate the Gaza area and much more which they have not done".  That's their mistake.  They are dealing with uneducated morons and that is not going to solve the problem.  I'm not saying that Palestinians are morons...just saying that the terrorist' echelon is nothing more that a bunch of nomadic imbeciles who are looking for notoriety within their group.  That's how they have been brought up....
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2009, 09:10:44 PM »

Here's the traditional conservative view point, from today's edition of the magazine Pat Buchanan started to counter the FOX NEWS type neocon philosophy:

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Israel can now safely be called the Bernie Madoff of countries, at it has lied to the world about its intentions, stolen Palestinian lands continuously since 1948, and managed to do all this with American tax payer’s money. Every American taxpayer, starting with George W. Bush, has Palestinian blood on their hands thanks to the butchers that run Israel.

Sderot, where a few homemade harmless missiles have landed, was once an Arab village called Najd, whose 600 Arab inhabitants were expelled by Israelis in 1948. Jewish settlers built over the old town in 1951. Having been ethnically cleansed, the Arabs moved to the Gaza Strip, along with some other 750,000 Palestinians who had been removed from their lands—or murdered, like the villagers of Deir Yassin—before the first Arab-Israeli war had even begun.

UN Resolution 194 and Article 13 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights say the people of Najd and Palestine’s other 384 demolished villages must be allowed to go home. But they can’t because Israel confines them in a small stretch of coastal desert that the Egyptian army held onto in 1949 and became a dumping ground for the displaced population of southern Palestine. Ninety per cent of Gaza’s 1.5 million people are refugees and their descendants. Israel won’t let them come back, nor will it let them have a state of their own in Gaza and the West Bank even if they relinquish their right of return.

When Israel pulled out 800 Israelis from Gaza in 2005, it funded immediately 12,000 new settlers in stolen Palestinian lands on the West Bank. In other words, while neocon Zionists like Frum, Podhoretz and Kristol trumpeted Israel’s withdrawal in the American media (neocon Zionists should be made to register as foreign agents—which they are—of a terrorist state, to boot) Israel was stealing and settling more Palestinian lands.


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« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2009, 09:44:58 PM »

pat buchanan is not a traditional conservative.  i'm not sure what he is anymore, but he does not hold a traditional conservative view in much of anything.  he has become reactionary, protectionist, and isolationist.  

in this case, he knows better, but hey....it got him in print and got him quoted.  he is technically correct on some of this, but has missed the causes.  he fails to answer the most important questions.  who are these palestinians?  why were they refugees, and from what?  he also uses phrases that are inaccurate and inflammatory, such as "ethnically cleansed", in reference to a population that embraces ethnic cleansing as part of their platform.  

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Ninety per cent of Gaza’s 1.5 million people are refugees and their descendants. Israel won’t let them come back, nor will it let them have a state of their own in Gaza and the West Bank even if they relinquish their right of return.


on this he is absolutely wrong....and knowing him as i do, i know he knows history.  which begs the question...to what end does he write this?

this was not objectively written and has many inaccuracies.  unfortunately i have seen more and more of this type of writing from him over the last few years.  i have ceased to have any respect for him, which is sad......

define 'neocon'.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2009, 10:03:46 PM »

It's my opinion that the US is on the short leash, and that we should stay there.

are you saying that the quote represents traditional conservative view point, TimV? By your previous comments it is my opinion that you do not understand conservatives or christians. I will not make another comment on it, but you should know you are just being insulting to many of us, and making a general butt of yourself.
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« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2009, 10:19:26 PM »

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are you saying that the quote represents traditional conservative view point, TimV? By your previous comments it is my opinion that you do not understand conservatives or christians. I will not make another comment on it, but you should know you are just being insulting to many of us, and making a general butt of yourself.
Hmmm. I have begun to wonder if English is the native language of some of the posters here. Oh, well. We Calvinists have our way of seeing things, and I know Baptists have their way. I just keep wondering what some people's definition of inflammatory is. I could quote people like Churchill, General Grant, Lincoln, and a thousand other people who spoke of Jews in the same way many people here are speaking of Arabs. But I guess when speaking of Arabs bigotry is the flavor of the day.

Anyway, 70% of Americans want to see the US not take sides between the Jews and Arabs, and I'm one of them, for better or worse. If it were up to me, I'd stop aid to both sides.

I'm planing on harvesting my first eucalyptus crop tomorrow, and if the mods give me permission to post pics, I hope you enjoy them, even though I'm a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and have the same religious beliefs as the people who sailed on the Mayflower.

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Tim
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2009, 11:39:10 PM »

Quote
are you saying that the quote represents traditional conservative view point, TimV? By your previous comments it is my opinion that you do not understand conservatives or christians. I will not make another comment on it, but you should know you are just being insulting to many of us, and making a general butt of yourself.
Hmmm. I have begun to wonder if English is the native language of some of the posters here. Oh, well. We Calvinists have our way of seeing things, and I know Baptists have their way. I just keep wondering what some people's definition of inflammatory is. I could quote people like Churchill, General Grant, Lincoln, and a thousand other people who spoke of Jews in the same way many people here are speaking of Arabs. But I guess when speaking of Arabs bigotry is the flavor of the day.
Anyway, 70% of Americans want to see the US not take sides between the Jews and Arabs, and I'm one of them, for better or worse. If it were up to me, I'd stop aid to both sides.

I'm planing on harvesting my first eucalyptus crop tomorrow, and if the mods give me permission to post pics, I hope you enjoy them, even though I'm a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and have the same religious beliefs as the people who sailed on the Mayflower.

Regards
Tim

Now that sounds like a follower of Pat Buchanan.  Pat Buchanan is a man who believes the interreptation of the Bible that declares that Christ will return at the time of Armageddon, and that by pushing Palestinians, Jews, and Arabs at each others throats he can help hasten that day.

You need to understand that a true follower of Christ (regardless of denomination, sect, or cult) has forgiveness, fairness, and sufferage as corner stones of their lives, this doesn't mean they need or should turn a blind eye.

If you are claiming that all Christians have to be Calvinists, that's absurd, that's just like saying to be a true Muslim you have to be a Sunni.  Ridiculous.  All you're doing by making such proclamations is reveal your own intolerance and venal heart.  Definitely not Christian. 

Is that in plain enough English for you?
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« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2009, 11:52:20 PM »

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If you are claiming that all Christians have to be Calvinists, that's absurd, that's just like saying to be a true Muslim you have to be a Sunni.  Ridiculous.  All you're doing by making such proclamations is reveal your own intolerance and venal heart.  Definitely not Christian. 

Is that in plain enough English for you?
The English is plain, but the logic is, well, somewhat primitive. I simply said I see things from a Calvinistic perspective, and never said that Baptists, neocon Jews and their fellow travelers don't have the right to their unusual positions.

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You need to understand that a true follower of Christ (regardless of denomination, sect, or cult) has forgiveness, fairness, and sufferage as corner stones of their lives
I hear that, and I read you saying
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Heck, I'd take the leash off and let the dogs loose.  1967 here we come.  If the Gaza strip is two miles wide howmany bulldozers placed side by side would it take to move every thing back to the Sinai Pennisula?
Quote
think I'd tell the rest of the world to send their navies to pick up any surviving swimmers after every body, brick, door, window, and floor board had been bulldozed into the Mediterranean Sea.
And I'm thinking that we Calvinists don't have to be embarrassed in the level headed department....
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« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2009, 11:55:12 PM »

brian, calvanists believe in predestination.  it's  nice.  takes all the effort out of salvation.  you are either picked or not.

timv, i don't think anyone here has it in for arabs.  we have it in for terrorists and the the people who support them.  the west bank palestinians have chosen a different path from the gaza palestinians.  you notice that israel is not sending forces into the west bank?

the people of gaza voted in hamas.  they made a choice to have a terrorist organization represent them.  we all live and die by the choices we make.

as for your crop timv, we'd all be happy to see what you have grown.  we will not hold your political views against you when it comes to crops and bees smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2009, 12:10:17 AM »

Oh aha sorry, I thought you were an angry liberal, TimV. You had me totally confused. You are an old school hardcore type orthodox christian (and in CA no doubt...), like my grandmother. Yeah...boy she had some opinions, but I loved her. And my English is perfect. Tongue Eucalyptis crop? Are you Australian?
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« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2009, 12:31:17 AM »

brian, calvanists believe in predestination.  it's  nice.  takes all the effort out of salvation.  you are either picked or not

That explains a lot, takes all of the individual responsibility out of life.

Me I believe the world is what we make it.  I don't like bullies or fanatics to can see only one point of view.  But I am a realist to the point that there are some you just can't reason with.  The unreasonable only understand one doctrine, that of might is right, since that is the only thing they understand it is the only thing they deserve.

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I simply said I see things from a Calvinistic perspective, and never said that Baptists, neocon Jews and their fellow travelers don't have the right to their unusual positions.

spoken like a true believer in Islam.  Allah Ahkbar.
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« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2009, 08:13:22 AM »

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That explains a lot, takes all of the individual responsibility out of life.

Me I believe the world is what we make it.
Who do you think made America? You could line up people from the Pilgrims to Washington and they believed like me. Your world view

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But I am a realist to the point that there are some you just can't reason with.  The unreasonable only understand one doctrine, that of might is right, since that is the only thing they understand it is the only thing they deserve.

is more a modernistic central and eastern European Stalinist philosophy, which is why neocons are often called Trostkyites.

Quote
Eucalyptis crop? Are you Australian?

Eucalyptus is the main honey source for the Central Coast of California during the winter. My ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War, which is why I'm so disapointed in those who let FOX NEWS do their thinking, Murdoch and Co. having dual loyalties and all. But 90 percent of any population will almost always be lead by the 5 percent on the far right or 5 percent on the far left. For the past 10 years the neocons, the Krystols, Krauthammers, Perles, Abrams, Frums, Feiths, Wolfowitzes, Libbies et. al. who are pro abortion, pro welfare State, pro homosexual marriage and pro US involvement in the Mideast for the sake of Israel have been doing the thinking of most American of European background, due, I suspect, from our failure of a Public School system.
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« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2009, 08:32:10 AM »

Here's the view of Paul Gottfried, the conservative Jewish columnist, and it's pretty much how I see it:

To give my own two cents: The Israelis are justified in going after an enemy that broke a cease-fire by showering Israel’s inhabitants with missiles. On this general point I can’t blame them. Unfortunately the residents of Gaza live in squalid, impoverished conditions, and neither the Israelis nor the Egyptians want them to leave that squalor, if they intend to go to either country. I fully sympathize with those who are reluctant to take in a population rife with terrorists and violent agitators, but I’ve no idea how this situation can be improved as long as the people who are now being pounded remain isolated, without employment, electricity or running water.

But the major problem I and others have with Israel is its American well-wishers, that is, the neocons and “movement conservatives” who are defending it. The pro-Israeli propaganda emanating from the usual shriekers and sycophants has become so nauseating that my stomach turns every time that my wife turns on FOX (I no longer take the initiative in doing so) or every time that I am foolish enough to open up the New York Post. I can’t imagine how even Rahm Emmanuel’s terrorist father could sound more bellicose than that patrician-looking equivalent of John Podhoretz, John Bolton (yes I know that Bolton’s dad was a Baltimore fireman), or that moronic imitator of minicon ranting Sean Hannity.

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« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2009, 10:06:30 AM »

first timv, you don't seem to know what a neocon is.  it's a label often tossed around, but not often understood.  it is also understood to be an anti-semitic term applied in an underhanded way.  a lot of libs don't know that, but probably wouldn't care if the did.

again, you have chosen to quote someone who really should know better.

the solution for gaza is simple.  recognize israels right to exist and stop attacking them.  like magic aid will flow and gates will open.  or...choose to continue as they have done, and be terrorists.  terrorists that even egypt, the  neighboring arab country will not tolerate. 

gaza, if you need an example, pop over and talk to the folks in the west bank.  you'll notice that israel has not "invaded" them, and while things are far from perfect, they are improving. 

don't know why people want to make this more complicated than it it. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2009, 10:16:37 AM »

Did Lebanon fire on Israel?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians


JERUSALEM (AP) — Militants in Lebanon fired at least three rockets into Israel early Thursday, threatening to open a new front for the Jewish state as it pushed forward with a bloody offensive in the Gaza Strip that has killed nearly 700 people. Israel responded with mortar shells.

 
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« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2009, 10:22:36 AM »

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again, you have chosen to quote someone who really should know better.

Paul Gottfried, Ph.D., is Raffensperger professor of Humanities at Elizabethtown College (PA) and a Guggenheim recipient. He is an adjunct scholar of the Mises Institute and the author of numerous articles and eight books including Conservatism in America: Making Sense of the American Right (Palgrave-Macmillan, July 2007), The Strange Death of Marxism: The European Left in the New Millennium (University of Missouri Press, 2005), Multiculturalism and the Politics of Guilt: Towards A Secular Theocracy (University of Missouri Press, 2002), and After Liberalism: Mass Democracy in the Managerial State (Princeton University Press, 1999).

Kathy, you keep speaking about your knowledge of history and the subject matter under discussion. What is your educational background? Is there anything that you've written on the subject under your full name? Are there certain people that you read who's opinions you find informed? If so, could you list a few?
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« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2009, 11:10:52 AM »

timv, i have pretty much exhausted whatever conversation i could have with you.  i don't mean this as a criticism, but i don't quite know what direction you want to take this discussion.

i suspect that you have an opinion that is either unformed, or that you are a bit afraid to fully express.  that's ok, but it makes for a difficult communication.

as for your professor, i really  have no comment.  i recognized the name but had to go back and look up the writing.  when i did, i had a flashback to the results of a night of bad drinking  smiley  he really does like the term neocon!!  he applies it liberally to any jew that has "gone over the wall" to the dark side of conservatism...in any form.

my writing you seem not to like, so i see no reason to share anymore than what i put here.  as for writers, there are many i read in order to form MY OWN opinion.  we tend to read people we like and that is a recipe for a narrow point of view.  i try to read even those i don't like....the ones that make me scream at the computer....just so i know how the loony left is thinking.  i don't recall claiming an enhanced knowledge of history....

with all due respect, i don't know what else i can say to you, or even add to this thread.  i'll be happy to try again if you think my position is unclear?

just so there is no confusion, i am not a neocon.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2009, 11:13:40 AM »

I'm planing on harvesting my first eucalyptus crop tomorrow, and if the mods give me permission to post pics,

TimV,

You have obtained full rights on this forum to post pictures and links.
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« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2009, 11:20:23 AM »

Here's the view of Paul Gottfried, the conservative Jewish columnist, and it's pretty much how I see it:

But the major problem I and others have with Israel is its American well-wishers, that is, the neocons and “movement conservatives” who are defending it. The pro-Israeli propaganda emanating from the usual shriekers and sycophants has become so nauseating that my stomach turns every time that my wife turns on FOX (I no longer take the initiative in doing so) or every time that I am foolish enough to open up the New York Post. I can’t imagine how even Rahm Emmanuel’s terrorist father could sound more bellicose than that patrician-looking equivalent of John Podhoretz, John Bolton (yes I know that Bolton’s dad was a Baltimore fireman), or that moronic imitator of minicon ranting Sean Hannity.


Anybody that starts throwing insults like that about either side really shows their true colors (rainbow?), and it sure isn't how you just described him. 

Sounds like a typical professor from a typical college/university.  That is why I trust very few in the ivory towers.  Or should I say Isengard....

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« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2009, 11:21:04 AM »

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suspect that you have an opinion that is either unformed, or that you are a bit afraid to fully express.  that's ok, but it makes for a difficult communication.
I've quoted two leading traditional conservative commentators, and said I agreed with them. Can't see how that makes me fearful.

Quote
as for your professor, i really  have no comment.  i recognized the name but had to go back and look up the writing.  when i did, i had a flashback to the results of a night of bad drinking    he really does like the term neocon!!  he applies it liberally to any jew that has "gone over the wall" to the dark side of conservatism...in any form.
I'm 48 with two businesses, and haven't been in school for awhile! Gottfried isn't my Professor. He's a widely read expert on the Mideast, and Jewish, and doesn't consider the necon Jews conservative. As I've said, they tend to be big government, pro gay marriage, pro abortion proponents of foreign entanglements.

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i'll be happy to try again if you think my position is unclear
?

It's just that you really don't seem to have any position. The people of Gaza recognise Israel, stop fighting and something magic will occur. If those people were to recognise Israel would you support their right to go home as full citizens of Israel with voting rights if they could prove they were kicked out against their will?  That doesn't seem too much to ask.

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« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2009, 11:22:56 AM »

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You have obtained full rights on this forum to post pictures and links.
Thanks. I'm off in 20 minutes to add supers and (I think) pull off at least 50 pounds of my first eucalyptus.
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