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Author Topic: PETA kills animals  (Read 7399 times)
JP
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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2008, 05:18:45 PM »

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All beings should be respected and treated with consciousness in my humble opinion

absolutely true statement.  my question is who will decide, based on what criteria, what is cruelty and what is not.  it's a bit like the spanking children debate, and even the internet filter debate.  would we rather put up with some bad stuff, or put up with a lot of government control influenced by fruit cakes?

we, as individuals, might take care of abuse when we see it, but if i take a pipe to my neighbors kneecaps when he beats his dog, i'll go to jail. 


Noone is asking you to take a pipe to your neighbor's kneecaps when he beats his dog.
All we can do is our best to stop unnecessary suffering. We have to abide by the law, all we can do really.


...JP

we don't step in anyway.  we let people be assaulted on the street and kids be abused.  after all, it's the governments job to take care of these things, no ours.
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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2008, 05:30:27 PM »

I would argue based on your above statement that you care for animals less than the average person and that if an animal is being beaten and suffering as long as its not your animal its ok by you.

I don't lose sight of the fact they are only animals. That is all they are. Animals. They are not people as some people would have them be.

They went to jail and I got a dog and eight pups.

So some guy spends time in jail over something done to dogs. Was he married? Have kids to take care of? But the human was less important than the animal.  rolleyes

So I took my dog home drank 16 beer's and said my good buys hugged my dog and then put her down. As I type this I have tears in my eye's.


I had this great wonderful dog. She got hurt really bad. I took her and put two bullets into her head. And no I don't shed tears. Again, just an animal. I have lost a few chickens in various ways. Don't shed tears for them either.
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« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2008, 05:34:22 PM »

I would argue based on your above statement that you care for animals less than the average person and that if an animal is being beaten and suffering as long as its not your animal its ok by you.

I don't lose sight of the fact they are only animals. That is all they are. Animals. They are not people as some people would have them be.

They went to jail and I got a dog and eight pups.

So some guy spends time in jail over something done to dogs. Was he married? Have kids to take care of? But the human was less important than the animal.  rolleyes

So I took my dog home drank 16 beer's and said my good buys hugged my dog and then put her down. As I type this I have tears in my eye's.


I had this great wonderful dog. She got hurt really bad. I took her and put two bullets into her head. And no I don't shed tears. Again, just an animal. I have lost a few chickens in various ways. Don't shed tears for them either.

You are quite unique Jerry.


...JP
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« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2008, 08:42:56 PM »

I consider Botox, plastic surgery, and tatoos cruelty to animals; even if those animals are people.

On the other hand a 5 cent 22 round to put an animal out of its misery isn't cruelty, it humane to end needless suffering.
When it come to putting an animal down what system is better, narcotics or other drugs, electrocution, suffication, or a well placed round from a fire arm?  Every one gets the job done fairly fast so who has the right to make the call?  I think I'm with KathyP on this.
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« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2008, 10:14:55 PM »

I wasn't following this post until I got a letter from a member upset at the tone and/or content of the replies.

I am a typical animal rights believers who finds all the "food chain" issues loopholes in the treatment of animals. I love my cats and have loved all pets in my 50 years on Earth. I could never hunt or kill anything, but I enjoy a steak or chicken eventhough I know the animal was NOT treated as kindly as humanly possible.

I don't think animals are slaves to humans, but they serve purposes which I think they were DESIGNED for. Letting anything suffer is wrong, purposely making it suffer is sickening. Those are a few opinions as I ready for work.

Here is the reply to the person who PMed me. I doubt it was the answer he/she expected and can't help it if they disagree.

The non beekeeping forums (Coffee House, Darkside, Laughter, etc.) allow expression of opinions, none of which anyone has to agree with. I suppose it is true that 90% or more animals are humanely killed by PITA, at least it is humanely.

If you disagree with a point on animal rights, then speak up, don't complain to me about it. Free and open exchange is part of the forum, fighting and degrading other members is not - I don't get involved in topics that allow opinions and have total access for opposite opinions to be made.

If you disagree on the right to do what you wish with an animal (as I do - I could never kill an animal, I have always had pets and wish I had a life as comfortable and loving as them) then speak up against opinions that differ. NOT in a fighting or combative way, but an expression that voices your opinion.

Saying you may not belong here because of a single post out of hundreds of thousands over 6 years is a bit slanted though, I have worked hard at keeping this forum family friendly and commercial free - although toopics in the coffee house often are not a Disneyland Experience, they reflect real life.

So rather than express a hint of moving on if I tolerate this, I think you should read the many opinions in this single post - more people are voice opinions that reflect yours than you. I'm sure you have things to say, so say them - or JUST DON'T FOLLOW THIS POST.

I'm not a dictator, and if you eat chicken, beef, pork, fish or anything that was living, you obviously know that HUMANE KILLING is often the LAST THING on the minds of the farmers.

Either participate, ignore or move on, they are they three choices of any topic - I can't paint a technicolor world and turn Beemaster.com into a theme park, it is a real world out there.

I wish you a great new year, but if this offends you, say what is on your mind, don't complain to me and suggest you ay move on if something isn't done about it - you had the gumshun to write me, write them, but DON'T point fingers or pick fights, express and debate your views, that is how it is done here.

I am copying this reply of mine to the post without mentioning you or your letter's details. Not for your benefit, but to those who are new and may also see this as distrubing - we often agree to disagree here, that is what adults do.

Any comments to my post, please pm them to me as you did here, PMing me is the fastest way to receive a reply. It may not be the answer you wanted, but it IS the answer. Happy New Year.

John


In closing. I don't doubt PITA has to kill 90% of its animal population it tries to save. That is part of being humane and still dealing with governmental redtape and funding. Just remember, the only reason we are at the top of the food chain is because we have weapons: toss the smartest person alive naked in a lion cage and see who is for dinner EACH and every time.

To the writer of the letter, I hope you find closure in this post, if not then there are the three options mentioned, and personally I think it foolish to stand on a topic and move on, it serves neither you or us any purpose in your leaving.  More later if needed, right now, off to work!!!

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« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2008, 10:27:16 PM »

Quote
All beings should be respected and treated with consciousness in my humble opinion

absolutely true statement.  my question is who will decide, based on what criteria, what is cruelty and what is not. 
From what I'm reading here, definitely not Jerrymac.  Sorry, but I think anyone who can type that kind of stuff on a forum has it in him to do what he suggests as hypothetical - and I'm very disappointed.  I'm with JP all the way.


I suppose I'm stupid to have cried when my dog died.  Nope, sorry, I loved her, and miss her, she isn't a child, I know that, but she has a special place in my heart and always will.  She was a dog, but she was a loyal friend, and I do shed tears when they get old and die. 

Cruelty in any form to any living being should not be tolerated.  Period.  There was a time when women were considered property - by the same guidelines that animals were property.   And yes, I do equate the two, because they were words written by men giving themselves dominion over everything - isn't that convenient?  rolleyes
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« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2008, 10:46:53 PM »

John,
The only part of your post I would like to add too, is the point about PETA killing animals due to red tape, funding, etc.

PETA's stance is that NO animal, regardless of what it is, should be made as a pet. That all animals should be free, undomesticated, and without human control.

So it is with this reality, that many see PETA as hypocrites. If they do not intend (and many say they DO NOT) to allow animals to be adopted, then they should stay out of the collection business. They take animals, and then they justify that they would be better off NOT being cared for by owners, and would rather see the pets euthanized. Complete morons!
___________________________

And as I said before, I am appalled at anyone who would treat any animal with cruelty. Yes, I hunt. I eat meat. I know the difference when extreme groups go beyond common sense, and when people use excuses and rationalization for behavior, by somehow justifying it with excuses of one thing or another. And I can truly see the Beauty in a person for many reasons, with one of them being how they treat, how they love, and how they respect animals. I admire those that that have compassion and treat animals the best they can. And unfortunately, my opinions swing the other way in harboring opinions and bias against those that do not. To me, the way you treat animals is one way of seeing into a person's inner self. It tells me much of a person. I see many beautiful people who love animals. But I can not say or feel good about those that abuse animals.
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« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2008, 11:47:59 PM »

Quote
To me, the way you treat animals is one way of seeing into a person's inner self.

agree with this also.  one of the things looked at when analyzing serial killers is their early treatment of animals.

maybe PETA should collect and euthanize those people who are cruel to animals??   grin

reinbeau, i have cried over my share of pets also.  especially dogs.  i agree that cruelty should not be tolerated.  it is not usually confined to animals and spills onto family and society.  it's just that i object to groups like PETA influencing laws that also impact those of us who keep pets and livestock, and treat them well, but not like humans.  there was some balance in animal cruelty laws, but we are tipping the PETA way and it will be to the detriment of us all. 

one of the more recent things is to get livestock, especially horses, reclassified as pets.  that would be a disaster.
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« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2008, 11:49:50 PM »

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All beings should be respected and treated with consciousness in my humble opinion
my question is who will decide, based on what criteria, what is cruelty and what is not. 
From what I'm reading here, definitely not Jerrymac.  Sorry, but I think anyone who can type that kind of stuff on a forum has it in him to do what he suggests as hypothetical - and I'm very disappointed. 

Everyone seems to have focused on the "negative" parts of what I have said and missed the parts that say I do not like the mistreatment of animals. I do not mistreat animals. But I do not put animals above humans. Someone got someone thrown in jail because of mistreatment of dogs. I wonder if that someone offered to buy the animals from that person.

My daughter bought a chihuahua for her son. That dog likes me more than anyone around here. He stays right by my side or in my lap. If anyone, even my wife, tries to come between us he growls at them. She has to establish herself as the dominant one every once in awhile. I told my son and every one else that if they were going to have animals around here they were going to have to feed them, water them, and clean up their messes. I do most of the feeding and watering.

Did you read what I said about that stray dog that showed up a week ago? I feed and water her. I am looking for a home for her. She is a very nice dog, but I have to chain her up when I let my chickens out and then I let her loose when the birds are locked up for the night. The other dogs don't get to go out because she would hurt/kill them. She is a problem, but I haven't taken her out back and shot her for it. I haven't taken her to the pound because they would probably end up killing her.

But they are all just animals.

Again, animals are property. They are tools. There are work animals, guard animals and rodent control animals. Some people just have them for companions. There is a reason for having an animal..... or you wouldn't have it.

I love my wife and kids and family. I do not love my cars, or my house, or my tractor, or my cats, dogs, chickens. I like having a lot of the things I have, and appreciate a lot of other things. I am not a materialistic person and I tend to limit my use of the word "LOVE" to really important things in my life.

Also I dislike a lot of things to varying degrees. But I haven't found anything I "HATE". I really don't like that word.

Now I guess you'll have to find another category for me.  grin
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« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2008, 11:55:00 PM »

to the person who was offended by comments.

very often we explore subjects in this section that are tough.  99.9% of the time the conversation is civil and respectful.  often we (I) play devils advocate just to evoke thought.  this is not a place for the faint of heart.  

i do not believe that anyone here would intentionally hurt or offend another, but we (I) will not pull punches when exploring a subject nor will i apologize for expressing thoughts unless i have gone over the line and lost my temper.  for that, i am always sorry.

rather than leaving, why not join in?  perhaps no one will agree with you, or perhaps you will change minds.  what does it matter from the other end of the internet?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2008, 12:11:57 AM »

It goes something like this.


    

    
    
    
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2008, 04:33:09 AM »

Now... safely at work (forgive my hurried typing and spotty wireless keyboard typing in my previous post - I had 5 minutes to write and zero to proof read it) but the points got across. And Bjorne, I get your point too - I had more of a chance to read the posts in greater detail before posting THIS post.

Jerry, I just assumed you had a death hole that fell to your primary bunker, into a part boil/eviserating tank which continued on to the slicer and quick freeze room - who'da thought  tongue

I've seen time and time again how we all have cringed at the burning of hives by idiots who knew no better. And I doubt we have any one who went through that whole Ted Bundy phase as a kid serving as the local feral pet population control.

I know people who enjoy hunting like no other sport, they get such a rush from it that you would swear they just came back from space through a firey reentry. But these guys (although don't always kill their targets the first try) do track and put the creature out of pain in hurried fashion. It isn't just about the meat.

I do understnd about PITA and the difference between their EXTREME WHACKOISM which is no different that any other extreme, like the NRA, GREEN PEACE and so many others. NO ONE in these far-sided groups are ever happy with middle of the road solutions, they all seek out and won't stand for anything but the rediculous extremes in winning their points.

I was not commenting on any single post, I think raising animals for food is noble, not everyone can do it - I doubt I'd look at chicken or any meat again if I had to butcher it myself. I don't do autopsies well and I surely wouldn't eat what remains on the table when the yuck is bagged and tossed. Lucky for me that ALL the meat I eat comes in stirofoam containers, covered in plastic wrap with price tags on it. If I jumped in any further in the slaughter process, I think I'd be a salad guy.

But to conclude, I feel anyone with a desire and stomach to hunt should be allowed, every state has its own rules and regs about what gets shot and when. And although I'd never own a gun for protection, I understand how issolated many people feel in this huge country of ours - I'm is a subburban area where crime is low, neighbors are nice, but my property backs wooded area where hunting occurs. So anyone licensed and packing heat has the best of both worlds. I don't mind neighbors having guns for self protection, the good thing about that is that the bad guys don't know which house does and doen't have weapons, so the chances of B&Es greatly reduce because few people are willing to take the chance.

I will say and THIS MAY SHOCK SO OF YOU, that if anyone hurts my family in anyway, I am a vengeful person, I would hunt them or have them hunted, tortured and killed for what the had done. You don't mess with people and their family without giving up ALL RIGHTS of self preservation. I would gladly go to jail for the rest of my life if someone I love (and let's face it, the list is pretty dam short here, was seriously injured, raped or killed by some piece of trash trying to cop a handful of jewelery and got caught) it is at that point, every penny I have is used if needed to see that they are removed from this planet in a fashion fitting of their crime. Of course, this does not apply to the creatures of the forrest, only the scum of society. There would be no defense lawyers looking for loopholes, no trial by their peers, their would only be vengence.

I'm liberal on gun laws, until you get into the cannons, flame throwers, rocket launchers, tanks, anti-tanks guns and all the crazy topshelf killing tools that are often brought together for gunshows and the stereotypical night of destructions that follow. There is a line that needs to be drawn in the sand between weapons to protect and all the militia weapons the NRA believes everyone has the right to own which often lead to militia ready to do battle when the IRS and ATF come knocking - I slam on the breaks there and say "owning such weapons is one thing, arming them is another." I think that ammonition kills people, guns don't. Collectors don't need 50 thousand rounds of shells to show off their full automatic 50 cal. tank busters or heat seeking shoulder mounted rocket launchers. Somewhere a line needs to be drawn.

I saw Gran Torino (newest Clint Eastwood Movie) and to quote appropriately for my thread here "GET OFF MY LAWN" I think that say it all Smiley

On.... Happy New Year To All  grin
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2008, 09:59:57 AM »

hey!!!!!!  i am a life time NRA member!!!!!!!   evil

happy new year to you   grin
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2008, 10:07:57 AM »

Does this mean we can start talking about guns and WMD? OH goody.





   




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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2008, 10:34:25 AM »

we have and we can.  i broke down and bought a 9mm last month.  swore i wouldn't own one because they are not much better than a bb gun for stopping power....but the deal was good...

i already posted some wmd stuff.

how's that for a start, JM?HuhHuh??   Kiss
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2008, 10:56:24 AM »

Well I meant getting off topic actually.  grin
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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2008, 11:35:04 AM »

Lest anyone else be accused of being the author to the complaint regarding the tone of this thread I will step forward and accept responsibility.

I will start off by saying that I do not belong to or support any organization such as PETA. I will also not stand on a soapbox and denounce hunting or the raising of livestock for human consumption. ( I love the taste of a good steak as much as anyone ) I acknowledge the less than ideal circumstances many of these animals are raised and ultimately die in.   I do the best I can, when I can, to support local farmers whose philosophies are similar to my own, although it is not always possible.
I am a family man and the steward of one dog, two cats, one fish, and ten hives ( that I am sure question my abilities  grin). I do not " own " any of them ( I am however responsible for them ) and would not presume to be able to " do " with them as I " see fit ".

I have always believed and always will believe that a measure of any society can be done by observing the way in which it cares for it's ill, elderly or any that are unable to speak in their own defense. I cannot imagine knowing that abuse of any kind ( towards people or animals ) would be tolerated simply because it doesn't or shouldn't concern me. To do so would diminish who I am. I am saddened by the tone and direction this thread had turned (" two bullets to her head"  " strangled a sick kitten ") Pointing out the failures and missinformation of organizations such as PETA is a GOOD thing. Linking people who are concerned for the welfare of animals to somehow caring less about their fellow man is a stretch I am not prepared to make. Niether is abuse to those less fortunate ( human or otherwise ) due to socio/economic problems justifiable.

It is not my intent to change anyone's opinion in this matter but rather to explain myself. I realize that stepping forward here may subject me to accusations of being overly sensitive but I will not apologize for it, it is who I am.
I wish however, to unreservedly apologize to any and all I may have inadvertently offended.


I am tired.........................time for me to go.

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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2008, 12:25:28 PM »

I am saddened by the tone and direction this thread had turned (" two bullets to her head"  " strangled a sick kitten ")

Yeah you're right. I should have let her suffer painfully until she died.
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2008, 12:26:56 PM »

I watched a program called "Whales Wars", that basically followed groups after Japanese fishing boats, etc. What it turned out to be, was two groups fighting for "publicity" and air time, for photo ops, and donations. They openly try to push aside the other groups, and it's their own self promotion that comes first. The whales are a distant second......or make that about 9th or 10th.

As with most groups, it comes down to self justification, money, and running the business as a business, complete with filled pockets of the people in power.

And I agree with the site about hollywood types being hypocrites and liars. They are the first to tell you how to live. And then there are types like Al Gore, who talks about greenhouse gas and emissions, but he is the biggest pile of gas emitting "stuff" I have ever seen.

I am skeptic about any group out there. It never turns out the way they say, and it usually involves much secrecy, with your money they seek.

I watch this show. Is it wrong that I pull for the Japanese fisherman? The protesters/ terrorists try to put the fisherman's boat out of service. What happens when the boat is disabled and set adrift in the artic ocean? What if the fishermen are killed? To me again we are putting the lives of animals in front of humans.

Keith

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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2008, 01:32:34 PM »

I watched a program called "Whales Wars", that basically followed groups after Japanese fishing boats, etc. What it turned out to be, was two groups fighting for "publicity" and air time, for photo ops, and donations. They openly try to push aside the other groups, and it's their own self promotion that comes first. The whales are a distant second......or make that about 9th or 10th.

As with most groups, it comes down to self justification, money, and running the business as a business, complete with filled pockets of the people in power.

And I agree with the site about hollywood types being hypocrites and liars. They are the first to tell you how to live. And then there are types like Al Gore, who talks about greenhouse gas and emissions, but he is the biggest pile of gas emitting "stuff" I have ever seen.

I am skeptic about any group out there. It never turns out the way they say, and it usually involves much secrecy, with your money they seek.

I watch this show. Is it wrong that I pull for the Japanese fisherman? The protesters/ terrorists try to put the fisherman's boat out of service. What happens when the boat is disabled and set adrift in the artic ocean? What if the fishermen are killed? To me again we are putting the lives of animals in front of humans.

Keith



What is up with this "we" stuff? Are you a child molester, a murderer, or anything else we should know about? Are you suggesting because a few are one way, that you include yourself in with them? "We" are a few radical people, a few organizations, and certainly can not be used to group the human race into a "we" comment. And to constantly bash, denigrate, or somehow lessen people's feeling about their pets, their love for animals, or anything else, because of the constant cries of "Putting animals before people" is off the mark and not true for most people.

As for your questions and comments, I agree, that they are terrorists. On one hand, many atrocities in the past have been brought to light by groups. But then they go and get all crazy and take it to extremes. I don't think pulling for the fisherman is wrong. But then again, I ask and wonder about someone being emotional about pulling for either side. One, has exploited fishing in many ways, to make a buck, while the other exploits their "crusade" for their own warped views. I think the best situation would be for both ships to collide, and both groups disappear...  grin

As a disclaimer, I would mention I am not against commercial fishing. But I do think other nations are not saddled with the restrictions that we are here in the U.S. And I think overfishing is a potential problem.

My original comments on the "Whale Wars" was about how competing groups of extreme environmentalists are battling each other much more than than the fisherman, because ego, donations, and self preservation is at stake. Which is the root of many groups going bad, in that they must act out ever wilder and wilder, to make an impact and seek donations. And as with PETA, it's not about saving animals as some think. It's about taking away YOUR animals at all cost, even with euthanasia as a means.

Stopping the fisherman to save the whales is just the stuff on top for publicity. The final goal with these groups is the complete and TOTAL stoppage of meat consumption, including fish, honey, and anything else they deem worthy of saving.
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