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Author Topic: 15 year old boy shot dead by police  (Read 11237 times)
Jerrymac
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« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2008, 09:18:36 AM »

The fact that the coppers ran away from him, before shooting him leaves me speechless. How on earth can you be chased by someone if YOU have the gun!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would hazard a guess they were trying to avoid having to shoot him.

It's a matter of being confident in your training and your own abilities.

Up until I stopped smoking I weighed a steady 120 pounds since my high school days. I am 5'7" tall. I have never had a fight in my life. Never had any defensive training. These two guys (the ex-wife's brothers) decided they were going to throw me into the swimming pool. I really hate being thrown into pools. One of them is a couple of inches taller than I am and out weighs me by 60 pounds at least. The other is taller and more muscular than the first. There was no doubt in anybody's mind that they were going to throw me into that pool. They grabbed me and the next second I was looking at them both splashing around in the pool from my nice dry place at the side of the pool. I do not know how that happened. Perhaps they were so confident they were going to do it and really under estimated me not wanting to go into the pool.

Just some thoughts. But this is what I was thinking about earlier.

I rolled up the sleeve of my left arm to reveal some long slash like scars and said, "First, you can't be afraid to get cut."

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« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2008, 09:00:45 AM »

Wow a lot on this since I last looked!

   A knife is a very dangerous weapon. At close quarters, meaning touch distance, I think I would rather face a firearm than a knife, especially in the hands of someone with any training at all. The knife is much more versatile in how it can be applied. The knife is much harder to control. The firearm only has one direction of action whereas the knife can be thrust,  slashed,  drawn, etc.

    If this was a 15 year old with a gun then there wouldn’t be as much controversy. Mostly because we all understand that the gun is dangerous. Obviously we don’t want the police or anyone to use deadly force unless it is necessary and each situation is unique.

    The main advantage of a firearm is one of distance. Why would you give up this advantage and risk death? Again at close range the knife is more difficult to get out of the way of.  If you are in doubt of how difficult it is to control a knife try this experiment. Grab the nearest teenager give them a large magic marker tell them to try to ‘get you’ as many times as they can and not let you get a hold of the marker. Then take off your shirt. When and if you gain control of the magic marker take a look at how many times they got you. Remember that if they got your hand or arm then it would have probably become useless. If they got you on the neck, the armpit or the groin with a good slash or in the torso with a good poke then you are dead.

      I strongly disagree with anyone,  even an old salt like Brian, who thinks that they can blithely remove a knife from the hands of an assailant and come away unscathed. Sure there are times when one could get lucky. Maybe the assailant hasn’t ever watched anything on TV except slasher movies, where the attacker always uses the overhand grip in a very mechanical fashion and makes it easy for you, but these days even the completely untrained person has seen enough fighting in the media to have gleaned a few good moves.

     Since I train with knives all of the time I can say these things with great confidence. I also teach and in my classes I often hand practice weapons to beginners and face off with them just to see what they do and to learn. I cannot tell you how often I have been ‘killed’ by an untrained person. These are not just athletic young men; these are a broad sampling of the population including teens and women of all ages and athletic ability. Even when I ‘survive’ these assaults I almost always come away ‘cut’. Often the best I can do is to chose what part of my body will be cut and sacrifice it so that I can gain control. Trust me on this I have tried this many times and I am well trained.

     So once you accept that the knife is dangerous at close quarters then you have to decide how we want our police to deal with that. The fact that someone is mentally ill is tragic but no less dangerous. How much risk do we expect our public servants to take?  Clearly nonlethal methods are to be preferred over lethal ones. This would be whether or not the person is young, old mentally disturbed, or simply a jerk. It would seem that if the police have the superior fire power and numbers and resources that there should almost never be a reason for lethal force. But people do stupid things and put the police into situations where they have to defend themselves.

     I am not in any way condoning police brutality or the use of excessive force, again I think that it is a shame that there wasn’t a better way to deal with the situation, and maybe there was.  Certainly we would hope that the police would try to use all other nonlethal methods at their disposal to control such a person. Obviously police are people too and under incredible strain so they make mistakes or become emotional and a certain percentage of them are corrupt mean jerks just like everyone else. We should review and hold responsible those police who are involved in these types of situations. Which I believe they do. We should also always be reviewing and revising police policies and procedures, coming up with new methods. But expecting an officer or anyone to take on a knife wielding assailant empty handed is unreasonable.

Alfred
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Irwin
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« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2008, 10:27:58 AM »

alfred I don't remember Brian ever saying he never got cut.

  I strongly disagree with anyone,  even an old salt like Brian, who thinks that they can blithely remove a knife from the hands of an assailant and come away unscathed

He has allot of pain from his time as a police officer. I think he sucked it up and took the beating to save a life.
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« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2008, 11:32:08 AM »

Yes I see now that I review the posts that Brian did not say that he got out of these things unscathed. I was mostly responding to his comment on how easy it is to catch someones hand and throw them. Which it isn't. I will agree that a knife held close is scaryer than one thrust out. I will also agree that one can somewhat asses the relative skill of an opponent by observing thier movement. But you are never sure.  And sometimes the untrained are way more unpredictable.

In the video shown on youtube those cops should have had weapons trained on the assailant and if he came at me the way he did those guys I would have shot before he got close enough to strike. You can also see how their reluctance to stand their ground caused them to be unstable on their feet thereby stumbling and falling with him ontop of them. This is a common occorance in any real fight situation. All of the fear and adrenalin causes you to become unstable and affects your motor skills. Take a look at these pics to see the results of such attacks
WARNING VERY GRAPHIC CONTENT kNIFE INJURIES : http://www.hockscqc.com/knife/index.htm

I am not a part of the group that has these pics posted. I am also not a student of their method or mentality I just knew that the pics were there and that they show the reality of facing a knife.

Alfred
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #64 on: December 25, 2008, 08:46:19 PM »

I never claimed to get come away unharmed, infact, in the case of the death waltz with my own son I specifically remember stating I would take the same ambulance to the Hospital, he for mental evaluation and me for various cuts and slashes.  Fear can get in the way of a persons training, an out of portional fear can really interfere and possibly death.  I think you may be in one of those classifications.  Am I afraid of a knife? No, but I am aware of the injury it can cause.  Am I afraid of the knife wielder?  Yes, to a degree, the human factor is, after all the most unpredicable.  But most of all I am confident of my own abilities and learned my disarming techniques from using slow motion and mock weapons and working up over time to real knifes in real time.  Makes a big difference because you're not overloading your skill development until one level is perfected and then moving to the second.  The difference in my success, and your lack of it, I would wager, is in the method and length of our training.  Besides, if you doubt yourself, if you don't believe your training is sufficient to over come the threat, if you think you're going to get hurt, chances are you're correct, you will get hurt and possibly killed.

I am not trying to belittle your overall skill in the arts of self defense, but I do know that the pupils ability to learn is directly affected by the sansei's ability to impart his own knowledge and if the sansei lacks knowledge in some area, his students will too.
I was not taught by an "expert" in the oriental arts of self defense, I was taught by an expert of American Indian fighting techniques who killed Japanese soldiers during WWII with his bare hands, when necessary, and with knife, gun, etc.  That's also where I learned my knife fighting skill and the defensive techniques in disarming a person of either knife or gun. 

I guess what seems easy to one person can seem hard to another.  I do have to question your degree of training if you still get "stabbed" so many times with a magic marker even by the untrained.  I think you have your teaching technigue backwards.  You need to learn to knife fight before you learn to disarm another person of one.  I use a stance that most martial arts students don't learn until they're usually well past 1st degree black belt called the "Horse" by various oriental modalities, but is the basic stance in American Indian close combat fighting.  I've had persons who've bragged of being blackbelts back down before any confrontation after seeing the stance I use.  They demand to know what degree blackbelt I am, and they won't believe me when I say the only belt I've ever had is the leather one that holds up my pants.

In knife fighting I prefer the "hook and lure" technique of the 2 handed knife figther.  The small knife to catch and hold the eye and parry the opponents knife while using the larger 2nd knife as the hook to gut him from crotch to sternum.  And believe me when I say, if I had to face a person who displayed the same knife fighting techniques (either 1 or 2 knives) I have, I would shoot first and ask questions later. 

What you seem to be getting steamed up about is that you've over looked the fact that I've never said I wouldn't shoot somebody with a knife, just the opposite, but that whether I did or not would depend upon my assessment of the persons skill and danger level.  I survived my 1st knife fight when I was a sophmore in high school. When you survive a confrontation like that, at that age, you have a tendency to develop great faith in your physical skill, your fighting knowledge, and the techniques taught to you by your instructor.

Suffice it to say that in a face to face boxing match, I would loose because I just don't have the skill level required in that fighting technique, just a basic knowledge.  Or as they often say, "I know just enough to get myself killed."

BTW, don't you find it interesting, that in states where CCWs are legal, the degree of training for a private citizen to obtain a CCW is greater than the amount of weapons training most of the police officers recieve?
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« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2008, 01:04:59 AM »

Hi Brian,

    Not sure what to say about all of this without sounding trite and defensive. I can see where you might have felt that I was attacking you and your training. I was really in disagreement with the general idea that the knife wasn't a dangerous weapon. I mentioned you because of the statement about grabbing and throwing an attacker with a flip of the wrist.   

At the risk of escalating the discussion and causing more misunderstanding I feel the need to address some of what you said...

   On the one hand you say that you too do not expect to get out of these situations unscathed and then you diminish my training and ability because I say the same thing and give examples and even a safe way to check it out for yourself by using markers or training weapons. I have a lot of confidence in my training and my abilities and this is tempered by my understanding of the realities of fighting.
   
Quote
I am not trying to belittle your overall skill in the arts of self defense, but I do know that the pupils ability to learn is directly affected by the sansei's ability to impart his own knowledge and if the sansei lacks knowledge in some area, his students will too.
I was not taught by an "expert" in the oriental arts of self defense, I was taught by an expert of American Indian fighting techniques who killed Japanese soldiers during WWII with his bare hands, when necessary, and with knife, gun, etc.  That's also where I learned my knife fighting skill and the defensive techniques in disarming a person of either knife or gun. 

   You say that you don't want to belittle my training and yet you subtly do so here in the classic "my master better than your master" game. One of the arts I study is a knife fighting art from Indonesia called silat. The first thing one learns in this style is how to fight with a knife. I have over 25 years of experience and training in this and other martial arts. Many of the people that I train with, my teachers and my students, are police and military or other professionals or instructors like myself.

Quote
I use a stance that most martial arts students don't learn until they're usually well past 1st degree black belt called the "Horse" by various oriental modalities, but is the basic stance in American Indian close combat fighting.  I've had persons who've bragged of being blackbelts back down before any confrontation after seeing the stance I use.  They demand to know what degree blackbelt I am, and they won't believe me when I say the only belt I've ever had is the leather one that holds up my pants


    Interesting because the Horse stance is a basic beginner stance in almost all martial arts I have ever seen. Never the less moving on from that, I am in agreement with the use of the horse stance and other deeply grounded stances when fighting. That is why I commented that the police were in unstable stances and/or didn't stand their ground and therefore fell down during the confrontation shown in the video and that this is common for people in an adrenalized state to become ungrounded making deep stances doubly usefull.


Quote
What you seem to be getting steamed up about is that you've over looked the fact that I've never said I wouldn't shoot somebody with a knife, just the opposite, but that whether I did or not would depend upon my assessment of the persons skill and danger level. 

I said that we were in agreement here already. The thing that I am on disagreement with was where you said:

Quote
BTW, if you know how you can catch a person's fist (holding knife or not) in your hand and wit just a twist toss the person over 10 feet away (ie a la Bruce Lee). 

making this sound relatively easy, which it isn't.

My main point is that a knife is a weapon to be taken seriously no matter who wields it and that officers of the law need to protect themselves. That we shouldn't simply assume that a police officer should be able to handle someone with a knife easily and without using deadly force. I would think that we were in agreement with this as well.

Alfred
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2008, 05:29:07 PM »

Okay, I agree with you on that I came on a bit heavy on my last rebuttal.  I apologize.  I honestly didn't intend to belittle your training, I was trying to make the point that the type of training can make a big difference.  On re-reading I realize what I said came across more demeaning the constructive.

Quote
Interesting because the Horse stance is a basic beginner stance in almost all martial arts I have ever seen. Never the less moving on from that, I am in agreement with the use of the horse stance and other deeply grounded stances when fighting.

I find that response interesting as well as I've encountered few people who have claimed to be black belts in one discipline or another who knew of the horse, but they did know enough to recognize it as a good defensive and offensive stance.  But I guess the qualifier here is self-proclaimed, there are people who'll brag about anything and think 1 lesson makes them an expert.

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I said that we were in agreement here already. The thing that I am on disagreement with was where you said:

Quote
Quote
BTW, if you know how you can catch a person's fist (holding knife or not) in your hand and wit just a twist toss the person over 10 feet away (ie a la Bruce Lee).

making this sound relatively easy, which it isn't.

A matter of symatics, no it is not easy, but it isn't difficult if you know how.  I know you'll proably still disagree with that statement too, so let me add, again, the the type and depth of training is important.  Confidence is even more important.  Which is the jist of my entire previous tirade. 

I can tell you that with your depth of experience (25 years) of martial arts training you should probably be able to train yourself.  Start with this:
Quote
But most of all I am confident of my own abilities and learned my disarming techniques from using slow motion and mock weapons and working up over time to real knifes in real time.  Makes a big difference because you're not overloading your skill development until one level is perfected and then moving to the second.

Brian
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« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2008, 08:46:15 PM »

Thanks Brian,

  I guess the thing that I would discus with you is that I don't think that I would get that close to someone armed with a knife if I didn't have to. There are all sorts of things that I could do if I had to get that close. But I just wouldn't want to be there. So if I had a gun and someone was charging me with a knife I simply wouldn't let them get that close. Why should I risk it at all? Now this is a moot point because I don't carry a gun. But I also am not in the business of going out and becoming involved in violent situations.

  I am often asked by students or others how I would deal with such and such a situation. For instance if I was in a bad part of town in a dark alley, etc... My answer is always that I simply wouldn't be there. I don't go to bad bars or bad parts of town at night or what ever. If I do have to go somewhere unfamiliar my awareness of my surroundings is tuned way up. The first rule of self defense is to stay out of trouble. The second is that if there is going to be trouble then take it to them first and hard.

  Now many of the folks that I train with as I said are in the military or police or bond agents ect. Their situation is different than mine. They are in the business of actively going out and getting involved in violent situations. We have had many discussions about what works and what doesn't and how to handle situations. It is always interesting. I would have to say that the concensus is to not take any more risk than necessary.

  In my own training I train with the idea that I will be on the short end of the stick. I am big and I don't have a victim mentality so I assume that anyone attacking me would make sure that they had the upperhand. I assume that If I am attacked that it will be by a group rather than a single person, that they will be armed, and that it will be a suprise. I also figure that I will be alone or with my wife only.  A different situation than that faced by a cop or a soldier. So my training reflects that.

Alfred
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2008, 09:48:11 PM »

  Now many of the folks that I train with as I said are in the military or police or bond agents ect. Their situation is different than mine. They are in the business of actively going out and getting involved in violent situations. We have had many discussions about what works and what doesn't and how to handle situations. It is always interesting. I would have to say that the concensus is to not take any more risk than necessary.

Alfred

I never took a risK I didn't think was necessary either, although I probably took some that other's might consider insane.  A Cop or Soldier is in the business of risk assessment, and in every case he'll try to take the best course (option) of action his training and experience allows.  Different circumstances and training often mean different actions.  That's been my point.  I've never gone looking for trouble, try to stay out of it, even as a cop it was better to end a confrontation peacably if possible, but when the chips were down I never looked for others to bail me out (there's no backup in a one cop town), or back off from doing what I had to do, and I chose to endanger myself rather than bystanders (that was part of the job).  I did my duty, took my lumps, and have a disability retirement from law enforcement as a proof of my labors.
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« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2008, 12:26:24 PM »

Quote from Alfred: "The first rule of self defense is to stay out of trouble. The second is that if there is going to be trouble then take it to them first and hard"

When I was in highschool and first year of college I went to bars, that's where my friends went, and I learned that, fighting fairly must be a thing of the past.

Gone are the days when one guy fights another guy. Too many sissies out there now I guess and also people who don't wanna just kick your butt, they want to hurt you, perhaps even kill you.

You fight the guy that picked the fight and everyone he came with, its pathetic.

I learned to live by the above motto and it works. Stay away from trouble and you keep outta trouble and if you cannot avoid it, yes take it to them first and aggressively as you can because your life very well depends on it.


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« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2009, 02:22:32 AM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/4149902/Family-of-man-shot-in-back-by-police-sue-for-25m.html

Caught on video tape, another cold blooded murder. I hope they get every cent they are asking for and the cop rots in jail.

They say he might have been going for his taser, instead he shot the man, already restrained and on his back, in the back and killed him.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/06/BART.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview

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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2009, 11:13:06 PM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/4149902/Family-of-man-shot-in-back-by-police-sue-for-25m.html

Caught on video tape, another cold blooded murder. I hope they get every cent they are asking for and the cop rots in jail.

They say he might have been going for his taser, instead he shot the man, already restrained and on his back, in the back and killed him.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/06/BART.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview




I would like to see one or more of the videos of the incident.  Now to get KathyP's hackles up: If the facts are as presented the the officer is guilty of negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter at the very least.

Again it comes down to a training thing.  Allowing Police Officers to wear their Taser in a holster immedicately behind their duty pistol is just begging for this kind of thing to happen.  And I would lay odds that that is were this officer wore his taser.
The taser is the 2nd most deadly force a police officer uses.  It needs to be placed on the officers person in such a way that intentional reaching for the taser doesn't unintentionally result in using the wrong weapon.  There was a similar incident in Seattle last summer where a femail officer shot a man with her pistol when reaching for her taser.  In that case the tazer was worn in a holster directly behind the pistol.

The taser should be required to be worn on the opposite side of the body from the pistol, cross-draw style, if right handed and visa versa.  There is no justification for wearing the weapon in such a manner that induces the likelyhood of such an error. 
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« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2009, 02:51:31 AM »

The actual shooting was on the news here, pretty clear. I believe you are correct in most of what you say/assume Brian. We didnt get to see the cops reactions tho.

Our retiring Police Chief was on TV last night defending the non issue force wide of tasers. Shes pretty smart and and can be very good listening when given a chance. She explained that training in the use of these was very time consuming. That they are not the answer to everything and she is not convinced that their use is in the best interests of anyone in a lot of cases.

Reading between the lines, she was saying that tasering is a very serious and dangerous thing to do. The use of them must be taken as seriously as a gun. The tone of her voice leads me to believe that she has been under enormous pressure from the govt to get em happening. I think the media frenzy will force the next police chief to introduce them force wide.

God help us when that happens.

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« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2009, 06:42:05 PM »

The actual shooting was on the news here, pretty clear. I believe you are correct in most of what you say/assume Brian. We didnt get to see the cops reactions tho.

Our retiring Police Chief was on TV last night defending the non issue force wide of tasers. Shes pretty smart and and can be very good listening when given a chance. She explained that training in the use of these was very time consuming. That they are not the answer to everything and she is not convinced that their use is in the best interests of anyone in a lot of cases.

Reading between the lines, she was saying that tasering is a very serious and dangerous thing to do. The use of them must be taken as seriously as a gun. The tone of her voice leads me to believe that she has been under enormous pressure from the govt to get em happening. I think the media frenzy will force the next police chief to introduce them force wide.

God help us when that happens.

If you can write letters to you local paper you might want to point out a few of my concerns to the local population.  If your Chief of Police is as heads up as she should be she'll see the wisdom of the recommendations and insitute them.
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