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Author Topic: 15 year old boy shot dead by police  (Read 11223 times)
mick
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« on: December 12, 2008, 03:02:53 AM »

Once upon a time, the Police were all big strong Men. A 15 year old kid with 2 knives would have been knocked flat without rustling a hair. Since "equal opportunity and political correctness" came in, all we have is short, weak, mentally defective dregs. If they are not dealing drugs, stealing, breaking windows, extorting and robbing, they are trigger happy.

3 of the 4 shot him, the 4th ones gun must have jammed. Sorry no tasers here, only the SOG have them,

The SOG have that plastic armour that defeats knives, they could have called for them. They might be trigger happy, but they are pretty honest, they dont let the psychos get in the SOG.

Below is one report. Now they say he was a member of some redneck group. I expect by the end of the weekend, the Police will have him "obsessed with guns and violence, addicted to violent computer games, high on ice and with a long criminal history".

I just dont believe that any other police force would be forced to shoot a kid in a carpark who was outnumbered 4 to 1 and at best, a scrawny kid.

Now the coppers will say that they are "trained to shoot as the greatest mass to stop, NOT KILL the threat" yer yer heard it all before. Problem is these idiots are told that if a certain situation develops, your life is in danger shoot, not taught how to assess if it actually is in danger. Anyways, they are all nutters now, so I dont spose it matters.

In the last 20 years, my state, not the largest opoulation killed 42, in NSW, they shot 20 and all the other states are in single figures. So I am lucky to have the trigger happy theiving drug dealing ones here. BTW even the head of our Federal Police Anti Drug bizzo was caught in our largest drug bust, up to his neck in pills, so it goes all the way to the top.

I better go register the dogs.



The family and friends of the 15-year-old boy shot by police in the inner-east Melbourne suburb of Northcote last night say they are appalled by the actions of the officers involved.

Tyler Cassidy was shot multiple times by three police officers after he allegedly threatened them with two large knives.

In a statement released this afternoon, his family and friends said the four officers concerned acted unacceptably, and their lack of negotiation skills contributed to his death.

The statement says Tyler Cassidy "died alone, without his family by his side, gasping his last breath, he was only a scared little boy."

"The lack of negotiating skills at the scene of the shooting, contributed to the untimely death of our beautiful 15-year-old," the statement reads.

"The Northcote police were notified 30 minutes prior to the killing, and briefed completely on what had happened, including what he was wearing, and to look out for Tyler.

"The police according to our witnesses chased him, cornered him at the skate park in Northcote, he was surrounded and gunned down by four officers firing at least six or seven shots.

"Our eyewitness confirmed that Tyler patted her dog, was confronted by the police and sprayed with capsicum foam, then pursued to the skate park, surrounded and hunted down."

Tyler Cassidy's mother Shani says she will fight for justice in the case.

"I promise you my darling, I will fight for you as you were taken from me under the most horrific circumstances," she said.

"Why was he slayed [sic] to death when it was so unnecessary? Four officers were not capable of managing the situation? Now you have passed over I will speak for you and others like you."

The family says it is looking forward to a "serious and thorough investigation and inquest into why Tyler was killed."

Victoria Police's Ethical Standards unit is investigating the shooting.

Earlier today Assistant Commissioner Tim Cartwright said officers acted correctly and rejected suggestions that they had been "trigger-happy."

"It's a young man who is very agitated and seems to be looking for a confrontation," he said.

"He's saying things like threatening to kill police, and kill himself.

"They've tried to talk him down, he doesn't drop the knives. One of the members sprays him with foam, that has no effect, he runs off to a skate park close by, police again confront him, keeping a safe distance, they are again calling on him to put the weapons down, he's still saying 'I'm going to hurt myself, I'm going to hurt you'."

"We've tried foam again, to no effect, he starts to move towards police, still very agitated, still armed with knives.

"One of the members then fired a warning shot, again he just kept coming, and then three of the four members shot at him, striking him, and he died soon afterwards.

"At the end of the day one of our member's lives was at risk from what we can tell, three members have then seen fit to defend that member and open fire.

"There was a suggestion that he [the officer] backed off, and came to stairs where he couldn't back off any further. Again I don't have the full facts, but that's the initial report that I've had."

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Keith13
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 08:40:18 AM »

Mick,

There really is no good answer in a situation like this. I agree a taser would have ended the entire situation and the kid would be here today. But the taser also presents problems for the police. Around here the police do have tasers and it seems every year they tase a drug attic high on dope and his heart gives out. Because of this it seems the police force ends up paying a million bucks a year to some family for wrongful death.
Its like a lottery for dope heads.

Keith
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 09:37:43 AM »

if you shoot them dead, they can't sue you.

mick, if your police over there are a problem, that's a bad thing.  here i try not to second guess what they do.  no matter what they do someone is going to say they are wrong and probably sue them.  i always start out giving them the benefit of the doubt.

maybe you should become a cop and help clean things up??   grin
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2008, 01:14:43 PM »

Yeah, its awful hard to get a good picture from a few paragraphs.  But if somebody with a knife is yelling that they are going to kill me and then themselves,...well...then I'll just save them some work and go right to the last step for them.  I don't know what the laws are, but I can see being a policeman and risking my life to save an innocent...but not to risk my life to save a yelling threatening suicidal person.

As to how things got to that point...that can be debated.  From a quick run through I'd guess we have a troubled teen that has problems anyway, judging from his reactions.  If that were me I'd have dropped to the ground and begged for mercy.  A right minded person doesn't threaten policemen who have pistols pointed at them.  If the kid has all of the bullet holes in his back, then thats another story....

But either way, investigations need to be done to make sure that everything is done with decency and good order, and violators punished.
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Rick
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2008, 03:45:00 PM »

should have sent him a pizza laced w/ valium. Yes its easy to second guess, but one thing i dont get is why theres always a rush to finish. They should have just let him stand there until he quit...
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2008, 06:51:24 PM »

Yes it all seemed a bit quick to me. Why didnt the other two use their sprays? A firehose would have ended it pretty quickly too.

As for the coppers, we have no heroes in society anymore. Years ago, some 6 foot 6 250lb walloper would have just disarmed him and been someone to look up to.

Whats the point of teaching coppers to disarm people if they are too frightened to give it a go in a real situation?

I just dont believe 4 men couldnt over power a kid. One distracts and the others use the old baton on the knees and its all over. Soldiers in battle overpower many men with bayonets and guns, charge machine guns and escape injury, its not impossible, you just have to have the balls to do it.

Ive just thought, why didnt they just run him over?
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2008, 07:17:07 PM »

I have not seen any video of this, but I have seen some 14 year old kids that are over six feet tall and could probably take on some professional line backers. Sometimes you can't tell they are that young. My 14 yo is a lot bigger than I am. And when he hasn't scrapped his face in a while he could probably buy beer without an ID.
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 09:09:44 PM »

if you shoot them dead, they can't sue you.

mick, if your police over there are a problem, that's a bad thing.  here i try not to second guess what they do.  no matter what they do someone is going to say they are wrong and probably sue them.  i always start out giving them the benefit of the doubt.

maybe you should become a cop and help clean things up??   grin

I've had to draw my revolver several times in the performance of my duty as a police officer but I never had to shot anyone.
We have the same kind of stupid idiot shootings by police here in the States too.  A guy reaches for a wallet and is shot 34 times by 4 officers.  That's not acting in any type of mode except scared sh**less and in panic. 

I've taken the knives away from more than one suspect during the same incident and never had to resort to a gun.  I've taken more than one gun away from an individual and never had to even consider drawing my own weapon.  I witnesses a person shot in a tavern full people and disarmed and arrested him without having to pull the trigger of my own weapon.
I've also had incidents where a teenager (as a prank) pointed a cap pistol at me and where a burglar trying to escape from a building was holding an electric drill like a gun (at 3 am it looks like a gun too) and never pulled the trigger. 
 
I was instructed to use a double or triple tap (shots) then pause to re-identify the target and threat.  Emptying a 10-18 round clip, as is often done these days, would have gotten me tried for homicide, or at the very least fired.  Now days they attempt to call any cop related shooting justified and rely on the publics ignorance and time to hide the problem of undertrained, emotionally unprepared people preforming the duties of a police officer.

For most of the 20th Century the people who manned the police force were usually, by a good majority, veterans of WWI, WWII, Korea, or Vietnam (my case), and already had experience in equating and identifying the difference between perceived and actual threat.  At the very least the various Police Academies around the world need to add another 2 weeks of instruction on just that topic to their training regimen.
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2008, 12:14:52 AM »

i don't know brian.  i have worked the drug ward and seen these guys come in high on crack and all its variants.  i have been one of many piling on a patient to hold them down and had them heave the lot of us off onto the floor.  i have seen the ER turned inside out by one crazy patient throwing heavy furniture and watched them slam repeatedly into safety glass without even feeling the pain.  one whack job with a knife can do more damage than someone with a gun that can be talked down. 

with the number of druggie wing nuts out on the street, and the number of unmedicated psychos out there, i really don't blame the cops for being spooked.  i know i wouldn't hesitate to unload into one of these folks and i have been taught good fire discipline.  my dad also taught me to keep shooting until they don't move. 
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mick
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2008, 01:45:19 AM »


I've had to draw my revolver several times in the performance of my duty as a police officer but I never had to shot anyone.
We have the same kind of stupid idiot shootings by police here in the States too.  A guy reaches for a wallet and is shot 34 times by 4 officers.  That's not acting in any type of mode except scared sh**less and in panic. 

I've taken the knives away from more than one suspect during the same incident and never had to resort to a gun.  I've taken more than one gun away from an individual and never had to even consider drawing my own weapon.  I witnesses a person shot in a tavern full people and disarmed and arrested him without having to pull the trigger of my own weapon.
I've also had incidents where a teenager (as a prank) pointed a cap pistol at me and where a burglar trying to escape from a building was holding an electric drill like a gun (at 3 am it looks like a gun too) and never pulled the trigger. 
 
I was instructed to use a double or triple tap (shots) then pause to re-identify the target and threat.  Emptying a 10-18 round clip, as is often done these days, would have gotten me tried for homicide, or at the very least fired.  Now days they attempt to call any cop related shooting justified and rely on the publics ignorance and time to hide the problem of undertrained, emotionally unprepared people preforming the duties of a police officer.

For most of the 20th Century the people who manned the police force were usually, by a good majority, veterans of WWI, WWII, Korea, or Vietnam (my case), and already had experience in equating and identifying the difference between perceived and actual threat.  At the very least the various Police Academies around the world need to add another 2 weeks of instruction on just that topic to their training regimen.


Now that is the type of man I was referring to, and Im honoured to be talking to you. Glad that there are still a few of you around out there!
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2008, 06:55:47 PM »

i don't know brian.  i have worked the drug ward and seen these guys come in high on crack and all its variants.  i have been one of many piling on a patient to hold them down and had them heave the lot of us off onto the floor.  i have seen the ER turned inside out by one crazy patient throwing heavy furniture and watched them slam repeatedly into safety glass without even feeling the pain.  one whack job with a knife can do more damage than someone with a gun that can be talked down.

Kathy, I've had to do the same.  I've wrestled with people so enraged with drugs and head injuries that they were stronger than 6 normal people.  I was fortunate in knowing a few mechanics and pressure points where I could use the temporarily deranged persons strength against them in order to control them.  But it was hard, exhausting task. 

Quote
with the number of druggie wing nuts out on the street, and the number of unmedicated psychos out there, i really don't blame the cops for being spooked.  i know i wouldn't hesitate to unload into one of these folks and i have been taught good fire discipline.  my dad also taught me to keep shooting until they don't move. 

Having had to choose to accept a beating in order to not endanger the lives of the innocent (women and children bystanders) I probably understand this better than most people.  It is why I posses a CCW and pack.  I don't want to be an helpless victim, but at the same time I'd accept another beating if I felt it was necessary.  Believe me, it was and will continue to be one of hardest choices a person has to make.
 
Having the awareness and observational skills to protect yourself and others is a great responsibility, but necessary in any society.  The ignorant and unprepared will always find themselves the victims.
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2008, 01:22:38 AM »

I train regularly with knives as a part of an indonesian martial art that I practice. Knives are an extreamly dangerous weapon to deal with. I know that I would never want to deal with anyone armed with one close up. More scary I think than even a hand gun at close quarters. I think that if I didn't have some form of nonlethal weapon such as a taser then I would probably shoot the person if I had a firearm and I would do it before they got within striking distance. In our knife art we are fond of saying that a person armed with knife has the same advantage as someone with ten years training. It is a situation that I would never want to be in.

Alfred
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2008, 02:54:11 AM »

I train regularly with knives as a part of an indonesian martial art that I practice. Knives are an extreamly dangerous weapon to deal with. I know that I would never want to deal with anyone armed with one close up. More scary I think than even a hand gun at close quarters. I think that if I didn't have some form of nonlethal weapon such as a taser then I would probably shoot the person if I had a firearm and I would do it before they got within striking distance. In our knife art we are fond of saying that a person armed with knife has the same advantage as someone with ten years training. It is a situation that I would never want to be in.

Alfred

That all depends, there are several styles of knife fighting out there, the style I was taught was that used by American Indians (specifically the PNW Indians).  I've never considered a knife in the hand of an untrained assailant a serious threat, surely not enough to shoot the person.  I currently use a cane to walk with and I still think I'm capable of defending myself against even a trained knife fighter with it, if not I can sure give him a good workout before I'm forced to shoot him in self defense. 
As for the gun, the closer the person gets the safer I feel.  It's hard to take away a gun from a person 10 feet away but is relatively simple at 3 feet, and a breeze if it touches me.  Part of the key is retaining your composure when a 45 is pointed at your left eye at a distance of 15 inches.  I know, I've been there, done that.
A few years ago, while working in a convience store/gas mart I had a guy display a knife as he came up to the counter, I think it might have crossed his mind to rob me.  At the time I was wearing a 12 inch bowie Crocodile Dundee style.  Anyway the kid flashes this butterfly knife at me and I said, "Nice toy you've got there." 
He said, "You're not afraid of my knife?"
"Like I said, it's a nice toy.  Looks pre-WWII german made."
"You're a knife fighter then?"
"I've taken a few away from some people who thought they were pretty hot, if that's what you mean."
Mean while the line at the register is getting longer and some of the people are getting a little nervous.
"What can you tell me about knife fighting?"
I rolled up the sleeve of my left arm to reveal some long slash like scars and said, "First, you can't be afraid to get cut."
"wow, assume," the kid said as he paid for his gas and left.
The next guy in line asked me, "What would you have done if he'd tried to use that knife?"
I reached back and pulled out my bowie and said, "I'da taught him what a real knife looks like."

If you ever meet me in a dark ally remember this: I am always armed with a cane, a pistol of some type, and at least 1 knife, and I know how to use them all.  I have a hunting knife set I like to carry, it has a regular hunting knife and a boning knife....works very well with 1 in each hand.
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2008, 05:02:29 AM »

Do you always keep a hive tool in your holster also?

Lone
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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2008, 07:43:00 AM »

should have sent him a pizza laced w/ valium. Yes its easy to second guess, but one thing i dont get is why theres always a rush to finish. They should have just let him stand there until he quit...

This in my opinion would have been the best solution or perhaps a tranquilizer. If you are 10-15' away from a person with a knife and you are armed with a gun, how is your life in immediate danger as to shoot that person?

IMO, a properly trained proffesional would have kept their distance and at all costs tried to work this out.

These cops could have taken lessons from Brian, who sounds like the epitome of what a cop should strive to be like.



...JP
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« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2008, 10:16:51 AM »

I guess I must have missed something. What was this kid doing in the first place for the cops to be called?
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2008, 02:11:59 AM »

  my dad also taught me to keep shooting until they don't move. 

Nifty, and if there is a 2nd or 3rd assailant you're now defenseless.  Sorry I'll light of 2 or 3 rounds, reasses tha target, there may be a new one, the one I was shooting at may have moved.  I will agree with shooting center of mass, as center of mass is center of chest and center of chest is where the heart is.  A riddled heart means a dead perp.
should have sent him a pizza laced w/ valium. Yes its easy to second guess, but one thing i dont get is why theres always a rush to finish. They should have just let him stand there until he quit...

This in my opinion would have been the best solution or perhaps a tranquilizer. If you are 10-15' away from a person with a knife and you are armed with a gun, how is your life in immediate danger as to shoot that person?

IMO, a properly trained proffesional would have kept their distance and at all costs tried to work this out.

These cops could have taken lessons from Brian, who sounds like the epitome of what a cop should strive to be like.



...JP

JP is right, detailing a few police officers to wait it out until the victim was fatigued would have been a better solution. 

While in the Army, as Provost Sergeant, (SE Asia) I had a soldier who had OD'd on Elephant pills (tablets with an elephant stamped on them lased with LSD) and was totally out of his mind and any loud noise would set him off.  I had spent an hour talking this guy down only to have him blow up in my face when another MP, who thought he was a real hotshot came barging in, banging the door, and yelling at the top of his lungs.
The oddity of the situation was that I was the one who was accused of not handling the situatation correctly.

Since I was in an intelligence unit, we had people who were trained in forgien languages and could listen to Russian or Vietmanese and type out a real time translation in English.  These guys would set for hours, day after day, listening to the "enemy".  Sometimes it was during live firefights with American troops.  Understandably, the people in this MOS had a extremely high rate of insanity or suicide do to what they heard.  My 1st exposure to this was while stationed in Sinop, Turkey and one of the people with that duty sat through listening to a Cosmonaut die of oxygen starvation after his defective space capsule hatch refused to reseat after a space walk.
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2008, 03:28:35 AM »

I guess I must have missed something. What was this kid doing in the first place for the cops to be called?

ONE of the three police officers who shot and killed a teenage boy reportedly tried to shoot his legs as he advanced on them, allegedly wielding two stolen knives.
Tyler Cassidy, 15, was shot and killed by three of four officers he confronted in a skate park in the Melbourne suburb of Northcote on Thursday night. Cassidy had allegedly threatened to kill them with the knives.

Tyler lured police to the scene with two hoax calls reporting an emergency near the scene where he died, The Age said.

Un-named police sources told the newspaper one of the officers who shot at the boy tried to shoot his legs in a bid to incapacitate him.

Officers failed to subdue him with two blasts of capsicum spray and warning shots as he advanced.

When Tyler continued to advance, three of the four police involved in the shooting fired at his body until he fell.

Tyler died at the scene.

The report said Tyler was hit twice in the legs and twice in the chest and several other shots missed him.

The officer who did not shoot said she could not because another officer was in her line of fire, The Age said.

Tyler had allegedly armed himself with knives stolen from a KMart store at the nearby Northcote Plaza shopping centre, the newspaper said.

The first hoax phone call reported an aggressive man armed with a shotgun at a Northcote building site.

Police arrived at the location but declared the reports false because there was no building site in the area.

Minutes later, he told KMart patrons and staff to call the police or he would start killing.

Meanwhile, a woman who saw Tyler minutes before he was gunned down, has used a letter to The Age to deny the boy was aggressive before his death.

The woman, who asked not to be named, said she and her partner were confronted by Tyler after he left the KMart.



TYLER Cassidy looked as though he'd been to a war zone, according to a bus driver who dropped the teenager near his home shortly before he was shot dead by police.

The bus driver yesterday told police he noticed Tyler as he tried to board the bus at Alphington train station about 7.30pm on Thursday.

"He said he had no money and he asked if he could get on without a ticket,'' the driver said. ``He looked like he'd been through a war zone ... he looked unsettled.

"His shirt was all dirty around his stomach. It looked like he'd been in some sort of fight, so I thought I'd better help him out.

"I let him on and a couple of times I looked in the mirror and he looked like something was bothering him.''

The driver said Tyler couldn't keep still during the 15-minute bus ride.

"He was very unsettled. It wasn't like he was sitting down like other people, just reading the paper or looking out the window. He was always moving,'' he said.

When the driver dropped Tyler off at his Northcote stop, the teenager's behaviour became more erratic.

"As he got off the bus I heard a bang, and he either kicked or punched the back door. And I thought to myself, `Hey, I've just given this guy a free ride. What's going on here?'

"Then he jumped on to a fence (near the bus stop) and started pulling the fence down.

"I thought he was just acting tough, but the way he reacted to the fence, I thought, `Hang on, he's not just acting tough. He's got some sort of problem _ a deep one'.''

Tyler was shot by police in a skate park in Northcote about 9.30pm, after he allegedly threatened to kill them with two stolen knives.

The bus driver said he thought of his unsettled passenger as he drove past the scene later that night.

"I heard a 15-year-old had died. And then I got the paper and sure enough, the picture on the front page was the same as the kid in the bus,'' he said.


Even Downunder, kids dont ask if they can get on a bus without paying, then go kill people. To me it sounds like he was rolled for what little he had. Happens all the time every day several people get rolled for cash, mobile phones, lap tops, ipods, etc etc. Anyway, the point is, he asked if he could ride without paying. That might happen to a bus driver once a year, out of hundreds of thousands of passengers. If youre not paying, you dont tell the bloody driver!

1. If the coppers shot him from 13 metres because they were in fear of their lives, then they didn't get any closer than that. Capsicum spray and foam does not work at that distance.
 
2. Why didn't the other two coppers use their sprays?
 
3. Why didn't they use their car to strike him?
 
4. Why didn't they contain the situation and call for back up?
 
5. Why didn't they use a fire hose on him?
 
6. Why was not one of these coppers intelligent enough to organise a distract and disarm maneuver?
 
7. If the 4th copper did not shoot, then he/she was obviously not in fear of their life. (corrected see above?)
 
8. Why were batons not used?
 
9. WHY DIDNT THEY PERFORM CPR?
 
10. Why in Gods name, if they teach disarming tactics in the police academy, were non of these coppers prepared to have a go?

Well I can tell you for a fact, that if some kid had said to me "Call the Police or I will start killing" It would have been over 2 seconds after he said it. I also know for a fact that every bloke I know would have done the same thing. It wouldnt even have been a big deal. That sort of thing happens all the time, people threatening to kill themselves or others, here its usually people not taking anti psychotic medications. We have all heard scanners, its run of the mill.

I heard one bloke, ex copper on the radio saying it was a disgrace. I just hope it doesnt get swept under the carpet like all the others.


He had also called his mother to tell her that he needed to be locked up.

The boys father, his idol and best mate,  had died on December 1 last year. Since then he was all bleeped up. So the poor bastard was just sad, confused and alone and something made him angry that day. Looks like he may have been in a scuffle. Might have won, might have lost, no one to guide him before or after.

Years ago we would have said he was a nutter. Now we all know, almost without having to think about it, that he was just crying for help, seeking attention, reassurance from an authority, begging out for a male role model. Lost and confused, the poor little bastard.

If some copper had put all of this together in real time, as they are trained to do, and was possible at the time, Tyler wouldnt be dead for Xmas.
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Lone
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2008, 06:02:29 AM »

I've never understood why police are taught to shoot in the chest.
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Keith13
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2008, 08:04:23 AM »

I've never understood why police are taught to shoot in the chest.

To stop a deadly threat

Keith
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