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Author Topic: 15 year old boy shot dead by police  (Read 11041 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2008, 12:55:47 PM »

when society decides to sanction abortion, euthanasia, and assisted suicide, it is pretty  hard to make a case for the value of life.  games, tv, and attitude followed the devaluing of life by society. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2008, 04:10:43 PM »

when society decides to sanction abortion, euthanasia, and assisted suicide, it is pretty  hard to make a case for the value of life.  games, tv, and attitude followed the devaluing of life by society. 
But not the death penalty - go figure  rolleyes
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« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2008, 05:07:20 PM »

the death penalty is a punishment for those who showed a disregard for life.  i don't put in in the same category.  if you have people in society who do not value life, they forfeit the value of their own lives.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2008, 05:09:20 PM »

if you have people in society who do not value life, they forfeit the value of their own lives.

Like 15 year olds waving around knives?
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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2008, 08:38:03 PM »

if you have people in society who do not value life, they forfeit the value of their own lives.

Like 15 year olds waving around knives?

No. The kid was messed up in the head and obviously wasn't thinking clearly, I don't believe he even understood the concept of valued life, when the cops decided to take his life.  He needed assistance not bullets.


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« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2008, 08:42:58 PM »

the death penalty is a punishment for those who showed a disregard for life.  i don't put in in the same category.  if you have people in society who do not value life, they forfeit the value of their own lives.
I have a huge problem with people who are pro-choice and anti-death penalty.  They value the wrong life.  It isn't a matter of the same category, it's a matter of logic, as far as I'm concerned.
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« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2008, 09:00:58 PM »

Quote
He needed assistance not bullets.

we had a case like this in our area.   one cop, but the young man (20's) was "only" armed with a knife.  the cop caught a lot of flack for shooting him.  the guy was mentally ill.  off his meds.  the usual stuff.  if i had not been around people like this and seen how very dangerous they can be, i'd probably be wondering why the cop shot him.  a few years on the lock up ward, and i wonder no more.  there is no talking them down.   no reasoning with them.  they can show enormous strength especially when drugs are mixed in. 

i understand the concern of the general public, but when these folks can toss the medical staff around like cord wood...even when we are trying to get them sedated, i wonder what choices are left to the cops  when they face one of these folks.

remember, we, as a society, have chosen not to lock up most metally ill.  we have chosen community management.  there are very few legal teeth to this community management.  if people want to go off meds, that's ok....until it's not...and that's when the cops get called.  hopefully the cops get called before the nut kills someone.

my neighbors have their son at home.  he was discharged (again) from a psych ward.  about every quarter he goes nuts and the family calls the police to take care of him.  some day, they will not have the chance to call.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2008, 09:26:16 PM »

Quote
He needed assistance not bullets.

we had a case like this in our area.   one cop, but the young man (20's) was "only" armed with a knife.  the cop caught a lot of flack for shooting him.  the guy was mentally ill.  off his meds.  the usual stuff.  if i had not been around people like this and seen how very dangerous they can be, i'd probably be wondering why the cop shot him.  a few years on the lock up ward, and i wonder no more.  there is no talking them down.   no reasoning with them.  they can show enormous strength especially when drugs are mixed in. 

Depends on what the options are.  Taking a life is final and drastic action not to be taken lightly.  I've handled people so out of their mind with drugs and pain from self inflicted injuries that they were no longer acting human.  Such a person is also pretty much impervious to gas or pepper spray.  But a good use of sap or baton can control the situation.  Try riding in the back of an Ambulance with a man so far out of it that he has literally broken the leather restraining straps on the gurney.  I was in the back with him because none of the medics would.  Very interesting 5 mile trip. 

Quote
i understand the concern of the general public, but when these folks can toss the medical staff around like cord wood...even when we are trying to get them sedated, i wonder what choices are left to the cops  when they face one of these folks.

Again it depends on the options.  But I have yet to see such a situation that could not have been resolved without use of a firearm.  I've danced the death waltz with a guy who had cut his wrists and had my fingers pressed into the cuts to stop the bleeding while we danced.  Had to trash the uniform afterward. 

Quote
remember, we, as a society, have chosen not to lock up most metally ill.  we have chosen community management.  there are very few legal teeth to this community management.  if people want to go off meds, that's ok....until it's not...and that's when the cops get called.  hopefully the cops get called before the nut kills someone.

Which in itself may not be a bad thing.  What is the tragedy of the matter is that we have then ignored the mental health of those we refuse to lock up until they begin killing, as happened here in Skagit County recently.  Until the public is willing to and demands medical treatment and crisis care for the mentally ill they have no right or business demanding or wanting government backed health care for themselves.  One of the major factors in this case was the test the State DSHS uses to assess aggressive behavior gave a nonviolent result.  A review of the test, afterward, showed the scoring in several areas was extremely low and has been readjusted, but adjusted enough?

Quote
my neighbors have their son at home.  he was discharged (again) from a psych ward.  about every quarter he goes nuts and the family calls the police to take care of him.  some day, they will not have the chance to call.

If the mental health assistance that should be there was actually there the person can be controlled to some extent.
Keep your gun loaded, when the mentally ill person here in Skagit county went off the deep end he killed 6 (including a deputy sheriff) and wounded 4 others.  Once a person is armed with a firearm and shots have been fired all bets are off and the only reasonable solution is most likely the one we hate the most, suicide by cop.
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« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2008, 09:58:24 PM »

thing is, they were being managed, and at state expense.  there are plenty of free resources in most communities either free, or low fee.  there are plenty of insurance companies that cover mental health.  problem is, the patients have "rights" and if they choose not to be treated or take meds, there is nothing that can be done until they have broken the law.  even then, they are hospitalized, put back on meds, go to court, and are turned loose.  we have decided that this is better for the mentally ill than locking them up. 

something else to chew on.  there are a good many shrinks that think most metal illness has some genetic link.  if not directly, then at least a predisposition to the diseases.  by having these folks out on the street, they are free to begin relationships, marry, have children, and possably pass on the mental illness.  i am neither a shrink nor a geneticist, but some things do seem to run in families.  if the MDs are correct, we will see more problems, not fewer.  add the decay of society in general, and the decay of any moral standard taught in home or school, and you have a potentially nasty soup on the stove.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2008, 10:48:20 PM »

I have always wondered why people want to tip toe around with the mentally ill. I feel they are more a danger to society then someone that has kill a person for some reason and probably will never kill again. At least we know why that person killed the one person. Jealousy, money, or something. But the mentally ill..... you just never know when it is going to happen.

I had a few friends that were in Vietnam. One thing they learned fast over there, a woman or small child with a rifle or explosive kills just like a grown man.

Brian, I really do not understand your thinking. Why would you risk getting sliced and diced and possibly death to take a knife away from someone? Face it, you really don't know the knife wielding skills of someone until your in close contact, and then it is too late. He slices a few of the right tendons and you are helpless as he takes your gun and goes on a killing spree after shooting you.

And besides, surely by now you know all those things you've done in life catches up with you.

I guess I was just trained differently as a security police in the Air Force guarding nuclear weapons. There you would not risk compromising yourself taking out one threat with the possibility of another threat that might follow.
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« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2008, 08:41:02 AM »

I have always wondered why people want to tip toe around with the mentally ill. I feel they are more a danger to society then someone that has kill a person for some reason and probably will never kill again. At least we know why that person killed the one person. Jealousy, money, or something. But the mentally ill..... you just never know when it is going to happen.

I had a few friends that were in Vietnam. One thing they learned fast over there, a woman or small child with a rifle or explosive kills just like a grown man.

Brian, I really do not understand your thinking. Why would you risk getting sliced and diced and possibly death to take a knife away from someone? Face it, you really don't know the knife wielding skills of someone until your in close contact, and then it is too late. He slices a few of the right tendons and you are helpless as he takes your gun and goes on a killing spree after shooting you.

And besides, surely by now you know all those things you've done in life catches up with you.

I guess I was just trained differently as a security police in the Air Force guarding nuclear weapons. There you would not risk compromising yourself taking out one threat with the possibility of another threat that might follow.

I agree with you Jerry eliminate the threat before it has a chance to grow.
1 man with a knife is a problem. 1 man with with a knife and a gun after killing an officer is a situation

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« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2008, 10:00:17 AM »


Again it depends on the options.  But I have yet to see such a situation that could not have been resolved without use of a firearm.  I've danced the death waltz with a guy who had cut his wrists and had my fingers pressed into the cuts to stop the bleeding while we danced.  Had to trash the uniform afterward. 

Wow, not sure when you did that, but that truly was a dance with death.  With the threat of AIDs, that is not a risk I would ever have taken.

Rick
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« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2008, 04:49:39 PM »



I saw this on Real TV the other night. It proves the damage one person with a knife can do against armed police officers, and why they might have chosen to shoot first ask questions later. It proves billy clubs do not always work. It also proves if an officer or in my case soldier is within 6ft of a person with a knife, they will have the knife inside me before I could draw a weapon.
It is graphic but was on national TV so I guess it will be okay here

Keith
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« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2008, 05:11:35 PM »

Brian, I really do not understand your thinking. Why would you risk getting sliced and diced and possibly death to take a knife away from someone? Face it, you really don't know the knife wielding skills of someone until your in close contact, and then it is too late. He slices a few of the right tendons and you are helpless as he takes your gun and goes on a killing spree after shooting you.

And besides, surely by now you know all those things you've done in life catches up with you.

I guess I was just trained differently as a security police in the Air Force guarding nuclear weapons. There you would not risk compromising yourself taking out one threat with the possibility of another threat that might follow.

It's a matter of being confident in your training and your own abilities.  I disagree about assessing a persons knife ability until I'm up close and personal, the way the person holds the knife in his hand, where it is held in relation to his body, body stance, etc, all tell me whether someone is experienced or not with a knife.  If they're showing experience with a knife I don't go mano-y-mano but use a baton or something similar as Tazers weren't available in those days either.  BTW, if you know how you can catch a person's fist (holding knife or not) in your hand and wit just a twist toss the person over 10 feet away (ie a la Bruce Lee).  That technique is very helpful in convincing someone they are over matched even if they are the ones with the knife.
I know for a lot of people it is hard to understand why someone would be willing to waltz around with a guy that had a knife, but consider this:  What if that person was your own child and the option was disarm them at a calculated risk to yourself or do serious harm or death to your own flesh and blood?  I've been there, done that, I've danced the death waltz with my 3rd child so many times it makes my jaw ache just to think about it.  Did I get hurt?  Yeah, occasionally, but faced with the same situation I'd do it again, although now, being a bit more decrepit I'd use my cane as a baton, which means hurting him more.

Choosing to take a beating that resulted in being forced to retire from law enforcement due to the injuries was not a fun day either, but given the circumstances (lots of women and kids in attendance) I'd do it again, though maybe more reluctantly.
There was one part of the job of police work I took very seriously, I laid my life on the line every day I put on the uniform and suffered because of it.  I've gotten thanked, personally, twice for those where what I did or said made a difference.  I guess that made it worth it.

Again it depends on the options.  But I have yet to see such a situation that could not have been resolved without use of a firearm.  I've danced the death waltz with a guy who had cut his wrists and had my fingers pressed into the cuts to stop the bleeding while we danced.  Had to trash the uniform afterward. 

Wow, not sure when you did that, but that truly was a dance with death.  With the threat of AIDS, that is not a risk I would ever have taken.

Rick

The 1st time AIDS hadn't been heard of yet, 1971 in the jungles of SE Asia.  Up through my time on the police force and later with my son, AIDS was still not a consideration due either to the era, or the blood relationship.  Besides I've never been one to consider a threat to myself when there was a threat to someone else.  Making myself the target was part of doing my job, a good number of people escaped injuries because of it..
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« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2008, 05:22:01 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc2fyEa_RkA

I saw this on Real TV the other night. It proves the damage one person with a knife can do against armed police officers, and why they might have chosen to shoot first ask questions later. It proves billy clubs do not always work. It also proves if an officer or in my case soldier is within 6ft of a person with a knife, they will have the knife inside me before I could draw a weapon.
It is graphic but was on national TV so I guess it will be okay here

Keith


The unrecognized threat there was that the person was keeping the knife at his side not out in front of him.  A knife at the hip is the hardest to defend against.  Although, if it'd have be me with the knife I would have held it cutting side up blade pointed out, quicker and more effective to use when needed.  The 2nd mistake was getting too close without a coordinated, planned approach, and the 3rd was being so far away when they began shooting.  None of the officers shot took the time to draw their weapon which could have been fatal.  In my younger days I took on a similar situation with 2 major differences, I was the only cop so not distracted or too trusting of assistance, and the knife wielder had his knife out at the end of his arm, arms length from his body, just begging me to take it so I did.  With a knife weilder, holding knife at the ready at the hip, I'd have drawn my weapon immediately.  Again it's a matter of knowing enough about the threat to evaluate it correctly the 1st time.
Their lack of training almost cost them their lives.  I know most of you can't distinguish the nuances of what I'm saying but those nuances can be huge.
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« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2008, 08:22:38 PM »

What about tranquilizers? Do cops have access to them? I understand it could cause a problem if there's some sort of unkown health issue but if a knife wielding person does not drop the weapon when asked, I believe they get the tranquilizer treatment, what do y'all say?


...JP
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« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2008, 11:21:24 PM »

What about tranquilizers? Do cops have access to them? I understand it could cause a problem if there's some sort of unkown health issue but if a knife wielding person does not drop the weapon when asked, I believe they get the tranquilizer treatment, what do y'all say?


...JP
No, tranquailizers are consider inhumane, when used on a human being.
You're idea has merit, but Law Enforcement are not allowed to use darts on insane or dangerous people due to the probability of unintended injury to the "victim".  After all, a tranq dart could put someone's eye out.
They are usually only allowed to be used by Vetenarians, Game Warden and Wild Life experts, who want to humanely handle dangerous animals.

How's that for a good example of political think?
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« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2008, 12:29:41 AM »

What about tranquilizers? Do cops have access to them? I understand it could cause a problem if there's some sort of unkown health issue but if a knife wielding person does not drop the weapon when asked, I believe they get the tranquilizer treatment, what do y'all say?


...JP
No, tranquailizers are consider inhumane, when used on a human being.
You're idea has merit, but Law Enforcement are not allowed to use darts on insane or dangerous people due to the probability of unintended injury to the "victim".  After all, a tranq dart could put someone's eye out.
They are usually only allowed to be used by Vetenarians, Game Warden and Wild Life experts, who want to humanely handle dangerous animals.

How's that for a good example of political think?
Hmmm, so they should call the Game Warden & Wildlife experts....I feel safer with a dangerous animal than many of the human animals out there...J
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« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2008, 02:32:24 AM »


No. The kid was messed up in the head and obviously wasn't thinking clearly, I don't believe he even understood the concept of valued life, when the cops decided to take his life.  He needed assistance not bullets.

...JP

I think you hit the nail on the head. Just think of what we all used to do as teenagers. We wouldnt do any of that now because we know we might get killed.

Our State Government closed down all the big mental hospitals in the early 90s when it went mad and sold off every state owned organistation, closed dozens of hospitals etc. We have never recovered from this. The mentaly ill were thrown onto the streets. They make up about 75% of the homeless here. The Salvos and all the other welfare organisations are stretched to the limit. Its just a disgrace. If they had broken legs they would be in hospital. Because they have broken minds, they are on the streets.

That video was one of the most I dunno what, bizarre vids Ive seen. It should have ended in he street, not the circus that ensued. No one in charge, no strategy, god awful shots when the time came for shooting. What I found incredible, was that the cameraman was never threatened. Who the hell trained these men, I dont care if youre 8 or 80, if you stab a copper like he did, then the nest thing you hear is a shot. It was like they were playing with him. Its so weird, it could be a set up, but ive seen similar weird stuff from those weirder sth american countries. I agree, he was holding that like he had used it before. Chances are he was high on some powder as well. As soon as he got to within 10 feet or so early in the video, that should have been the end of it. The fact that the coppers ran away from him, before shooting him leaves me speechless. How on earth can you be chased by someone if YOU have the gun!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian, your ambulance ride. "Lie still or I will hit you again" springs to mind.

Reminds me of the time I was in the back of an "Ambulance" in Turkey, in a blackout. The driver, more like a cabbie than anything else, had the thing off the speedo at 220k, a Mercedes transit van type thing. He was smoking and passing them around, as the guy in the back was on O2. I dunno what worried me more. The Kiwi dying, the ambulance crashing or it and me blowing up. When we got to the "Hospital" it looked like an abattoir, blood on the walls, floor, beds.
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« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2008, 07:28:13 AM »

What about tranquilizers? Do cops have access to them? I understand it could cause a problem if there's some sort of unknown health issue but if a knife wielding person does not drop the weapon when asked, I believe they get the tranquilizer treatment, what do y'all say?


...JP
No, tranquilizers are consider inhumane, when used on a human being.
You're idea has merit, but Law Enforcement are not allowed to use darts on insane or dangerous people due to the probability of unintended injury to the "victim".  After all, a tranq dart could put someone's eye out.
They are usually only allowed to be used by Veterinarians, Game Warden and Wild Life experts, who want to humanely handle dangerous animals.

How's that for a good example of political think?

"They are usually only allowed to be used by Veterinarians, Game Warden and Wild Life experts, who want to humanely handle dangerous animals."


What about humanely handling dangerous humans??? I just don't get it.

Oh and if the person's eye gets hit by a dart, well, they probaby will survive, I know this is the part where the word "lawsuit" comes into play, should be a law where it doesn't apply in a situation like this.

Really looking forward to the day when you cannot sue for anything, that will be the day!

Sorry Mr. so and so no we will not hear your case, guess you'll just have to suck it up!


...JP
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