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Author Topic: 15 year old boy shot dead by police  (Read 10710 times)
JP
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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2008, 08:09:35 AM »

I've never understood why police are taught to shoot in the chest.

To stop a deadly threat

Keith

I agree, if you must shoot someone, and I believe you do so when your own life is in eminent danger, you take the most lethal shot you can, which would be to the vitals.


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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2008, 11:10:30 AM »

handguns are very innacurate even in trained hands. Shooting at the largest area, your body ,is the result.
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2008, 11:28:03 AM »

at close range they are accurate if you have properly adjusted them.  center mass is easier to hit.  in a crime or battlefield situation you don't always have time to take careful aim.  in addition, you want to minimize collateral damage and center mass tends to hold the round (depending on what you are using). 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2008, 06:53:55 PM »

Isn't it amazing how we care for God's sweetest little creature promote good fellowship, karma, peace, etc...

And here we are talking about the best place to aim your bullets to kill someone! Man oh man, the human spirit! Heehee.


...JP
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2008, 06:59:03 PM »

The event,as described, is a version of what we here in the USA refer to as Suicide by Cop.  Set up a situation and then agitate the police until someone loses their cool and kills the person.  Happens too much, most as a result of inadequately trained police.

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1. If the coppers shot him from 13 metres because they were in fear of their lives, then they didn't get any closer than that. Capsicum spray and foam does not work at that distance.

Any air borne behaviour deterent (CS, CN, Pepper Spray, etc) is a close quarters weapon, close enough to almost touch, If the officers never got closter than 13 meters (30 feet) the use of the spray may only be a action to justify the greater action that followed.
 
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2. Why didn't the other two coppers use their sprays?

Probably because they were probably aware that is would be ineffective.   

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3. Why didn't they use their car to strike him?

Believe it or not, the use of the car would have been considered excessive force whereas the use of their pistols might be justifiable.
 
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4. Why didn't they contain the situation and call for back up?

That's the 64,000 dollar question.  Probably because somebody had heroitis.
 
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5. Why didn't they use a fire hose on him?

A good solution, why didn't they call for the fire department and more back up?  Heroitis?
 
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6. Why was not one of these coppers intelligent enough to organise a distract and disarm maneuver?

Lack of experience and training pure and simple.
 
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7. If the 4th copper did not shoot, then he/she was obviously not in fear of their life. (corrected see above?)

The 4th officer referred to did the best job of assessing the cituation but once somebody shots it seems like everyone else has to get a shot in too.  It's kind of a group justification.  The 4th cop, may, instead of being commended for judicial restraint be repremanded for not supporting fellow officers.  That 4th officer as the best of the lot and should be put in charge after some more crisis training.  Even if one officer was shooting to disable, the fellow officers, once a shot was fired, would naturally shoot to kill.

 
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8. Why were batons not used?

Batons are often considered an outmoded tool and many Police agencies don't even issure or allow their use anymore.  It is doudtful that option (probably the best) would have been available.
 
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9. WHY DIDNT THEY PERFORM CPR?

A dead perp tells no tails.  In reviewing the situation the dead get little say other than crime scene evidence.  That evidence in this type of situation is easily manipulated when it comes down to he said, she said.  It's kind of an, Oh, sh**, we've messed up and if the person dies it's easier for us.
 
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10. Why in Gods name, if they teach disarming tactics in the police academy, were non of these coppers prepared to have a go?

Fear and inadequate training.  In my training it took hours of going from facing a wooden or plastic knife to facing a real knife and being able to preform the necessary physical motions sufficiently.  If you've never trained against a real knife there remains a residual fear of failure and injury.  Same thing goes for disarming a man with a gun, until you've done it successfully against a loaded gun several times that fear and doudt remain.

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Well I can tell you for a fact, that if some kid had said to me "Call the Police or I will start killing" It would have been over 2 seconds after he said it. I also know for a fact that every bloke I know would have done the same thing. It wouldnt even have been a big deal. That sort of thing happens all the time, people threatening to kill themselves or others, here its usually people not taking anti psychotic medications. We have all heard scanners, its run of the mill.

I heard one bloke, ex copper on the radio saying it was a disgrace. I just hope it doesnt get swept under the carpet like all the others.

As you can tell by now, I'm with the ex-copper who called it a disgrace.

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He had also called his mother to tell her that he needed to be locked up.

The boys father, his idol and best mate,  had died on December 1 last year. Since then he was all bleeped up. So the poor bastard was just sad, confused and alone and something made him angry that day. Looks like he may have been in a scuffle. Might have won, might have lost, no one to guide him before or after.

Years ago we would have said he was a nutter. Now we all know, almost without having to think about it, that he was just crying for help, seeking attention, reassurance from an authority, begging out for a male role model. Lost and confused, the poor little bastard.

If some copper had put all of this together in real time, as they are trained to do, and was possible at the time, Tyler wouldnt be dead for Xmas.

Here in Skagit County, Washington, we recently had an incident where a mentally ill person went on a rampage killing 6 people,  including a deputy sheriff, and wounding 4 more.   The underlying reason in that case was the draconian process the state has for classifying a person as dangerously insane.  The definition, established by the legislature, requires..."unless the subject possess an immediate and inerent rish of inflicting death or bodily harm upon themselves or others...."  Which means the immediate present, it doesn;t refer to what mental state the person might be in 5 minutes after he's released.

The solutions to cases like these to change mental compentancy laws and police training procedures.  But that is going to require the public to become vocal in demanding those changes.

Regardless of the situation, or a persons participation in it, once a shot has been fired it is way too late for any other options.
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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2008, 11:04:18 PM »

since we were not there, and are relying on press reports....which as we all know are pretty sad, it is unfair and even a bit stupid to be trying to second guess the cops on this site?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2008, 07:48:40 PM »

since we were not there, and are relying on press reports....which as we all know are pretty sad, it is unfair and even a bit stupid to be trying to second guess the cops on this site?

Hey, I'm a cop, been there, done that.  I know enough about law enforcement to understand what happened and the reasoning behind it.  The lack of adequate training in possible life threatening circumstances is not unfair it is an attempt to correct a lack of responsibility of those who have authority over the police.  Being a Police Officer, who retired the hard way, I think I have a chair in the choir on this.  I do support the police and what they do, but being an insider I think I've earned the right to be a little critical when training etc aren't up to par.
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2008, 08:17:25 PM »

brian, you may say whatever you want!  i know i do  grin

you have experience with law enforcement.  i have experience with whack jobs.  neither of us were there and we both are old enough to know better than to trust a press report for anything.  that was my only point.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2008, 08:30:13 PM »

I hear about the news reporting.  Here's one that just happened up river in Sedro-Woolley, WA.  A man was being robbed by 2 men, 1 had a shotgun.  When they asked him to get the "stuff" he grabbed a piston and pumped several holes in the man with the shotgun.
The man defending his home is currently in jail facing a possible murder charge.

I personally don't think they can make a murder charge stick because of the robbery in progress/defense of castle.  However they should be able to make the unlawful possession of a firearm and possession of narcotics stick as the man had prior felonies and the police found about 30 lbs of assorted drugs and Mary Jane on the premises.  The only way they can make the murder charge stick is if the Prosecutor and the Defense let the jury get the case without a clear definition of self defense.
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« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2008, 03:09:08 AM »

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24818750-2,00.html


Thanks for those comments and thoughts Brian. Very good to get such a professional opinion.

Some things that happen around the world, those of you in the US unfortunately have more experience of than we downunder. So I value your opinions in the coffee house.

Kathy, Im surprised at you!  Wink

Our police Chief already quit,leaves when they find another dud to replace her, yer her, because she was caught denying her jaunt to the US on the new Quantas A380 a month ago, so shes not saying a word.

Kathy, I just know it will be swept under the carpet as all the others are, thats why im so angry. It goes back to the shooting of Gary Abdallah in bed in the 80s here. He was a dreadful crook a very bad man, society was better off without him, but the cover up was a joke. They didnt kill him, left him a vegetable before he died. Planted a gun on him.

Abdallah's lease ended on Sunday April 9, 1989. Police surveillance was
also about to end. He left his flat momentarily, was trailed by police who
intercepted him and returned him home.

Police claim he was being arrested for the attempted murder of a
policeman's son several weeks before.

It was there that Abdallah allegedly pulled an imitation pistol on
detectives Cliff Lockwood and Dermot Avon from City West CIB. Lockwood
fired six shots from his gun and then let off another one from his partners
weapon. Abdallah was critically wounded and died after 40 days in a coma
from complications arising from a bullet wound to the back of the head.



So they got off with this one, everything else is easy. Pulled an imitation pistol?? shot 6 times with the ole 38, then he snatches his partners gun and shoots him in the back of the head?

Anyways, 20 years later, the truth came out.

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« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2008, 07:54:09 AM »

Pulling an imitation pistol is just as bad as pulling a real, live, loaded gun.  You go right ahead and have something pulled on you and you make the decision whether or not it's real - hurry up, cuz if it is, you're dead unless you can get the drop on them.  I've read through this all and have to say I respect what Brian has had to say, but I'm swayed to Kathy's viewpoint.  Keyboard jockeys judging what goes on in a heated moment can make all kinds of righteous judgements, none of us were actually there.
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JP
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« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2008, 09:17:47 AM »

Pulling an imitation pistol is just as bad as pulling a real, live, loaded gun.  You go right ahead and have something pulled on you and you make the decision whether or not it's real - hurry up, cuz if it is, you're dead unless you can get the drop on them.  I've read through this all and have to say I respect what Brian has had to say, but I'm swayed to Kathy's viewpoint.  Keyboard jockeys judging what goes on in a heated moment can make all kinds of righteous judgements, none of us were actually there.

Ha!


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« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2008, 09:27:30 AM »

Suicide by cop

That is about the only was to describe the two cases of what Mick is describing.

Anybody pulling a fake, realistic pistol on one or more policeman has a desire to die but lacks the courage(or delusion or whatever it is...) to pull the trigger himself.

Anybody calling the police with a report of a lunatic with a shotgun, then advances on the police shouting and brandishing knives has the desire to die but lacks the ???courage?? or the means to do so to himself.

Call the police with a report of a dangerous man stalking around with a shotgun and you are going to have some pretty adrenalized policemen responding expecting trouble, not messing around with disarming non-violently.

I can only comment from a plain old citizen point of view, but considering the criminals and problems that the police have to deal with...  I'm usually more concerned about the policeman that was tricked into shooting a suicidal person and then finds out the pistol was fake.  That has to be wrenching.

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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2008, 10:16:35 AM »

mick...just trying not to form a firm opinion off a press report.  your press is not different from ours.  very often influenced more by the politics of the moment than any inconvenient facts.  always in a hurry to get a story out, the facts will be checked later....maybe. 

the cops may have been wrong.  they may have made a bad choice.  they may also have felt so threatened or felt others around were threatened, that they took action.  we were not there.  we do not know.

rick, excellent point.  cops probably face the same problem that our military  has been facing lately.  defender or killer?  we can work well in one mode or another, but it is hard to switch back and forth.  the result of those switches is often our own death.  we ask them to make these split second calls and when they make the wrong call, we throw them in the brig.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2008, 05:10:21 PM »

mick...just trying not to form a firm opinion off a press report.  your press is not different from ours.  very often influenced more by the politics of the moment than any inconvenient facts.  always in a hurry to get a story out, the facts will be checked later....maybe. 

I can agree that most of the time trying to form an opinion from a news story can be problematic, especially if the story shows bias.  But even then, or when, certain types of critic facts are made know (ie Police shootings aka Suicide by Cop) a lot can be drawn just from the similarity of events.  That is the point I'm taking.  Suicide by Cop works because too many or our civil police are inadequately trained.

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the cops may have been wrong.  they may have made a bad choice.  they may also have felt so threatened or felt others around were threatened, that they took action.  we were not there.  we do not know.

Those that truly made a mistake usually resign from law enforcement with in a year of so after the event, those who postured the event go on to do it again and again, almost a legal serial killer.  Taking of a life can and should be forgiven if it was a mistake but the intentional taking of life (murder) is the 2nd most selfish thing any person can do, the most selfish is suicide, by whatever means. 

The Japanese have a system I like, if a person kills another, acidentally or intentionally, they must make restitution to the family of the person killed.  In the Shogun era murders were beheaded, now days they are imprisoned the the killers family must make resitution.  I think the act of making restitution is a bigger deterent to accidental or intentional killing than any death penalty.

Quote
rick, excellent point.  cops probably face the same problem that our military  has been facing lately.  defender or killer?  we can work well in one mode or another, but it is hard to switch back and forth.  the result of those switches is often our own death.  we ask them to make these split second calls and when they make the wrong call, we throw them in the brig.

I would venture to say, that when our current Iraq War veterans begin making up a portion of our police forces we will see a drop in poor assessment shootings and a higher correct rish assessment.  Just like during and after Vietnam, another war in which the American shoulder was never sure of who the enemy was.  Those split second decisions are not really hard to make, the justifcation afterward is much harder. 
Cops like to say, "I have to make a decission in the blink of an eye that the courts will argue for the next 10 years."  That is the truth too. 
But I still maintain, because I've been there, done that, and each time, made the right call, that it is a lack of training.  The Police are just not getting the type of Combat Training they need to properly assess and handle the problems of gang warfare, suicide by cop, and the kid with a cap or BB gun.
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« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2008, 03:33:52 AM »

Pulling an imitation pistol is just as bad as pulling a real, live, loaded gun.  You go right ahead and have something pulled on you and you make the decision whether or not it's real - hurry up, cuz if it is, you're dead unless you can get the drop on them.  I've read through this all and have to say I respect what Brian has had to say, but I'm swayed to Kathy's viewpoint.  Keyboard jockeys judging what goes on in a heated moment can make all kinds of righteous judgements, none of us were actually there.

Ah the point of that exercise was to show, how crooked our cops have always been I spose. Every man and his dog knew at the time, that they had nothing on this bloke. He was pretty infamous but they just had no evidence on him. He wasnt planning on suicide by anyone. He didnt have a fake gun, he didnt have any guns. Thats why it is so absurd that he would pull a fake gun. He knew he was under surveillance, He had repported to police the day before and apologised for not coming in sooner as he had heard he was going to be shot. it just doesnt make sense. The one that shot him was sacked in disgrace anyway. I might start a seperate thread for the full story of this for those interested in crime.

Back to the topic, despite the best efforts of the media, no riots have ensued. They were kinda hoping he was a member of some right wing racist thug group, that quite simply does not exist. He had 30 or so close friends it seems, and an extended network of maybe a hundred. Just a normal 15 year old kid. They might break a few windows this weekend, but I doubt it.

Rumour has it that the grouping of shots was not the best. No organ was fit for transplant, head shots to lower leg shots. Great work morons.

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« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2008, 06:38:22 PM »

Here in BC we are cleaning up after a distraught man in the airport with no English and wandering around for several hours became angry and frustrated.  Four of our best arrived on the scene Taser the man and he dies.  The questions keep pouring in and the story has legs.  In the old days our RCMP officers were instantly recognised by size alone and commanded respect.  They did not need Tasers and rarely drew their gun.
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« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2008, 06:50:48 PM »

Here in BC we are cleaning up after a distraught man in the airport with no English and wandering around for several hours became angry and frustrated. 

And I am sure there were a lot of people just jumping to help this guy, understanding his frustration and all.
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« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2008, 03:07:27 AM »

Here in BC we are cleaning up after a distraught man in the airport with no English and wandering around for several hours became angry and frustrated.  Four of our best arrived on the scene Taser the man and he dies.  The questions keep pouring in and the story has legs.  In the old days our RCMP officers were instantly recognised by size alone and commanded respect.  They did not need Tasers and rarely drew their gun.

I do remember that the RCMP were all big bastards years ago. Tough as nails, dealt with everything out there the other side of the black stump.

The poor bloke, must have been allergic to electricity. Im surprised more people havent died after being tasered. I reckon if you had epilepsy or a heart condition, you wouldnt want to meet mr taser.

If someones going to break down, an airport is a likely but unfortunate place for it to happen. Just watch those airline shows. I saw one poor bloke in the US who asked to see the supervisor, in a pretty polite way, told he was being aggressive and was barred from the flight. End of story, go away or they call the cops. Another case of little hitlers at work, the world full of them.

I just googled this incident. Didnt see the video, but I see "Twenty people in Canada have died after being shot with a stun gun, which the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have used more than 4,000 times since 2001. Canadian police forces consider stun guns a safer alternative to regular firearms".

Thats a lot less than if a gun was used I spose.

It just seems to me, generally around the world, we are placing less and less value on human life. We all have become just statistics. It seems every type of verbal confrontation between customers and staff ends up with the customer in the lock up. God forbid If I called you fatso, or 4 eyes, or darling, Id face a civil suit as well. Im very polite, was brought up that way. I was also taught to be tolerant of others. I dont think tolerance is in vogue nowdays, its all about "my rights" Once society was tolerant of others, now others are largely pests. Maybe its to do with smaller families since the 60s. Im sure some of you could recall the days when families were ten or more strong, and sharing was a way of life.

I remember one day on the train, I saw an evil looking bloke, charles manson type, saying to a freddie kruger type who was his mate, "you shouldnt have said that to him, you dont know what he might have been through, you shouldnt treat people like that". Freddie Kruger hung his head in shame. I said to myself at the time, hmm this bloke who has obviously been in jail by the tattoos, has or has had a heavy drug addiction, is covered in knife scars and self inflicted wounds and has the arse out of his pants and has probably just robbed someone this week, has this amazing compassionate attitude. How could that be? I guess he was brought up that way?

 Now I dont know what had been said, but the exchange has always stuck with me.  When someones going insane for whatever reason. I say that sentence to myself, it keeps me calm.

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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2008, 11:19:41 AM »

I agree with Mick regarding  the rapid erosion of respect for human life.  It is apalling although foreseen with film and TV media, computer games, and even our daily newspapers,"if it bleeds it leads" credo, lulling us in to accept human suffering for some time.  I believe the wholesale growth of material acquisition at all costs culture feeds into this also.
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