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Author Topic: bravo india  (Read 1059 times)
kathyp
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« on: November 28, 2008, 03:26:56 PM »

HRTs around the world will dissect this for LL.  no doubt there were mistakes made, but considering how many were hostage and how nuts the terrorists are, the loss of life was far less than it could have been.  another wake up call for all.  bravo to india for bringing this to an end and killing the scum.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
annette
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2008, 04:01:53 PM »

Yes the Army did a great job considering what they were up against.
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Vetch
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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 01:30:07 PM »

HRTs around the world will dissect this for LL.  no doubt there were mistakes made, but considering how many were hostage and how nuts the terrorists are, the loss of life was far less than it could have been.  another wake up call for all.  bravo to india for bringing this to an end and killing the scum.

Mistakes were made - like the police standing around doing nothing, the military being slow to arrive and slow to act, and the government ignoring warnings from the intelligence community. The only reason that loss of life wasn't higher is that the terrorists underestimated the strength of the structural columns.

If you are cheering for India now, just wait until the fundamentalist Hindutva parties like the BJP take power. Then there will be more pogroms like the 2002 Gujurat episode, in which Hindu mobs killed over 2000 Muslims. Do you think Christians in India will be spared when the Hindutvas set up the killing fields? Think again: one Hindutva group's motto is “First Muslims, then Christians”.  These goons have killed hundreds of Christians in the Orissa region of India this year, and created 50,000 refugees in their campaign of anti-Christian terrorism. 
 
Communal violence in India between Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, and other groups is a long standing tradition. The biggest difference is that this time, it happened in a modern part of a city instead of remote villages, and it was carried by the media. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 02:25:18 PM »

as i said, there will be much analysis.

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Communal violence in India between Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, and other groups is a long standing tradition. The biggest difference is that this time, it happened in a modern part of a city instead of remote villages, and it was carried by the media. 


on this i believe you are wrong.  this was not (as we now understand it) the normal "communal violence".  this was from outside with a political and perhaps geopolitical goal.  again, we will learn more as time goes by.

i cheer for india because in spite of whatever mistakes were made, decisive action was taken.  there were not attempts a long negotiations.  there was not hesitation on the part of the forces that came in, in the face of immediate loss of life.  i understand that reports have some local police acting in a less that heroic manner;  and i have great appreciation for the acquisition of intel from,  rather than the offer of lawyers to, the one terrorist caught.

when we all have achieved perfection in handling these events, perhaps they will not happen again?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 08:54:00 PM »

Negotiations can be good, as long as you have someone willing to listen but once the 1st shot has been fired the time for talk is over and quick direct sustained action is the only solution left. Once a shot has been fired, the longertalk is attempted prior to initiating action, the more deaths there will be. 

Every delay of compassion gives the enemy greater power and defensable positions.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
Vetch
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2008, 12:05:29 PM »

Well, it was international in the sense that Pakistan is now its own country. But it wasn't long ago that Pakistan was part of India, and when they split off, Kashmir was a big point of disagreement (and the group claiming credit for the attacks is Kashmiri).

In the recent attacks, negotiation would have been useless - the gunmen were on a murderous rampage and simply needed to be stopped. With respect to Kashmir and attacks by Kashmiri groups, India has never been one for talk - they seized the territory by force, they have always chosen the use of force. It isn't clear to me that simply adopting some type of tactic (negotiation or hard-line force) will by itself automagically eliminate conflict. 
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2008, 01:38:23 PM »

Well, it was international in the sense that Pakistan is now its own country. But it wasn't long ago that Pakistan was part of India, and when they split off, Kashmir was a big point of disagreement (and the group claiming credit for the attacks is Kashmiri).

A lot of the history of why that occurred centers around how Britain drew the boundaries when they let colonies go independent.  What they did with regard to Israel/Palistine, Iran/Iraq/Syria, India/Packastan/Bangladesh, and numerous places in Africa (ie Rhodesia and South Africa) set the stage for eternal conflict.  Geography makes for an easy out but ethic ties doesn't recognize geography in that way.

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In the recent attacks, negotiation would have been useless - the gunmen were on a murderous rampage and simply needed to be stopped. With respect to Kashmir and attacks by Kashmiri groups, India has never been one for talk - they seized the territory by force, they have always chosen the use of force. It isn't clear to me that simply adopting some type of tactic (negotiation or hard-line force) will by itself automagically eliminate conflict. 

That was my point.  Talk is good as long as both sides are willing to negotiate but once someone pops a cap talking is useless and katie bar the door.   Many areas of the world (like those I mention above) are long past the negotiation stage and are, at best, at an armed truce.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
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