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Author Topic: Lets talk radical...or maybe just something common....  (Read 9227 times)
BjornBee
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« on: November 20, 2008, 08:25:18 AM »

At this point, two years into CCD, does anyone have a clue what CCD is, or what combinations of triggers cause it? I don't think so.

They now know that nosema C, has been around in samples 15 years old. That it is not a new nosema just introduced. And it may of been here longer than we thought.

We also know that the pesticides, neonicotinoids, and other chemicals that some thought were the source for CCD, has shown in numbers of comb tests that would indicate they are not sole to blame. Although I do think that the combination of chems in the hive, produce deadly concoctions that may be a piece of the puzzle, mainly by lowering the immune system and making other problems more opportunistic.

But lets talk outside the box for a moment.

Necrotizing fasciitis, also known as "NF" is probably something most do not know much about. But you may of heard about the "flesh-eating" disease that is more common in hospitals these days than most really know.  It's caused by A. streptococcus, or "GAS".

Did you know that most people carry "GAS" already? It's not something you get from "catching" it, it is something you have already on your skin.

People at risk are those who have suppressed immune systems (chemotherapy, steroid use, kidney disease, or HIV infection to name a few) And once these people then have surgery or other procedures in a hospital, they are at risk for seeing NF, due to the bacteria entering the body through contusions, abrasions, cuts, or other skin breaks.

Once the strain GAS outbreaks into NF, it is often fatal. The regiment of different antibiotics alone may number a half dozen types since the culture and strain may be difficult to treat. And many times if not caught early, treatment is useless.

So what do we have for humans......a bacterial strain already present on most human bodies. But until the immune system is suppressed, and the right vector is presented, most people will carry the bacteria for their lifetime. And no problems will ever exist. And for all the science in the world, much of what we know today about NF, has come about through perhaps billions of dollars of research, study, and experience.

Now relate the above to bees today. We have bees with suppressed immune systems (pesticides, beekeeper introduced chemicals, poor genetics and breeding, stressed hives being moved, poor nutrition, etc) and couple that with a vector of infection via the v-mites, and what possible bacterial agent are we possible not seeing?

I inspected for the state for a few years. I had some commercial guys, just a few years ago, due to finances, have extreme amounts of mites in their hives going into fall, with DWV, and extremely high counts of mites. I actually heard some say "I have not treated them, because if I have to treat them before I send them to California, I might as well hit them up hard at that time". And I am not suggesting that this scenario is the whole picture of CCD. I'm just suggesting that treatments, and many decisions about mite loads, when to treat, etc., were made not because of mite load, but for timing of hives being moved, and other factors.

So, is there bacterial issues so off the scope that nobody is looking or has no clue what to look for? Are items such as management, movement of bees, chemicals/pesticides, coupled with poor genetics, suppressing immune systems to the point that when you have a mite load able to open up a vector in enough bees, that deadly consequences then are set in motion?

I look at NF, as something we just now are learning so much about. And it almost mirrors exactly what we see in bees. A bacterial being present all the time, then coupled with a suppressed immune system, then vectored into the body (or even passed by the queen or food - although I'm not sure)...and what does it all add up to? For humans, many times a death sentence with NF. For bees, perhaps CCD and a dead hive.

I do not know how researchers look for different bacterial strains in the hunt for CCD answers.. Are they looking at the one's we know and have cataloged before? What about new ones, like GAS on humans that have been there all along, but never really looked at?

This of course opens up many questions about passing disease between hives in a yard since entire yards are crashed from CCD, or if the infection is passed beyond the vector of open wounds (open feeding, etc) in bees from mites.

The point I'm suggesting is that we have a potentially deadly bacteria strain that we already carry on most of our bodies, yet only when the circumstances are correct, do we see the infection and outbreak. And CCD, could very well be the same model for bees. This of course is something that many, including myself have said all along. That it is a combination of factors all lining up, to create the CCD.

Comments....
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 09:56:35 AM by BjornBee » Logged

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doak
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 08:40:39 PM »

We have had some cold and flue strains latley that the over the counter and prescriptions would not touch. So my wife and myself took it on our own to try the honey and lemon concentrate thing.
About an equal amount of each, "3 or 4 table spoons full", with about 8 oz of water. Drink hot like coffee.  It did the trick.
The same effect comes to other live stock, and Humans.
Remember when penicillin would take care of about anything?
Now a-days it'll hardly touch anything.

I think we have bred the honey bees in to a low immune system strain.
Why am I having better luck with wild stock than I do commercial stock?
Because they have not been treated?
Even If I get a swarm off a colony that came from a commercial Keeper, they have had a few months without the chemicals.
I am going to try another year or two and see how I come out. Chemical free.
LET"S GO! :)doak

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TwT
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 08:08:23 PM »

has there been any new loses this year, I have heard nothing.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 07:52:04 AM »

has there been any new loses this year, I have heard nothing.

I've heard little. And I do not expect it to, due to the circumstances at hand..... grin
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 09:05:39 PM »

My personal opinion is that CCD isn't caused by a single vector but can be caused when any of several senerios reach the tipping point. 

Some of those vectors are inadequate nutriton, mite load, contamination levels of comb, viruses, insecticides (internal and external), along with several other possibilities.  When the tipping point comes, even with Israeli virus and other flags absent, CCD is the result.
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2008, 04:12:21 PM »

one thing not being done is studying a hive for mutiple years. The chems tested in the past are dtermined to be safe after just a few weeks or so. Wax, with time accumulates chems. the bees also begin to store the chems and begin to feed their young over time. If the tests dont extend for a few seasons, it just doesnt show the whole picture. I would re-test nicotinimides for example.
Yes, genetics plays a role too. we need more diversity. My feral bees do things differently, and they are more frugal, fly inj worse weather, dont beard as much and also dont collect as much honey, but a lot more pollen, or raise brood either. Not attributes copmmercial beeks want.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 12:32:29 AM »

That's been one of my bones of contention for years.  Unless a study is conducted over the long term they cannot be valid only on the basis of a short term study.  The Dept of Ag should require studies on medications for agricultural use to be conducted for at least 3 years and 5 would be better.  It would take those 3 years before the toxic buildup would be noticable.  Basing legal usage and application on the results of 3-6 month studies is insane.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 07:14:03 AM »

Makes you wonder why more do not practice comb rotation and culling. If your talking 3 to 5 years for buildup, that sounds about right for comb to be replaced.

Comb in the wild, has been shown to be replaced about every 5 to 7 years. Hmmmmm. Nature does it for perhaps viral and bacterial issues. But it does suggest that new comb is a built in advantage that bees benefit from.

Again, hundreds of comb samples from CCD hives have shown no more than 30% of chems from neonicotinoids and other hotly debated pesticides. Beekeeper induced chems have shown in 100% of samples, many times at rates that would clearly indicate usage beyond anything suggested per label instruction. You can test all you want, but if beekeeper themselves can not follow the usage amounts and decide to pour the pure chemicals straight into the hives, then testing and talking about half-life, and levels, seems a bit nonproductive.
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 10:59:27 AM »

Makes you wonder why more do not practice comb rotation and culling. If your talking 3 to 5 years for buildup, that sounds about right for comb to be replaced.

Comb in the wild, has been shown to be replaced about every 5 to 7 years. Hmmmmm. Nature does it for perhaps viral and bacterial issues. But it does suggest that new comb is a built in advantage that bees benefit from.

Again, hundreds of comb samples from CCD hives have shown no more than 30% of chems from neonicotinoids and other hotly debated pesticides. Beekeeper induced chems have shown in 100% of samples, many times at rates that would clearly indicate usage beyond anything suggested per label instruction. You can test all you want, but if beekeeper themselves can not follow the usage amounts and decide to pour the pure chemicals straight into the hives, then testing and talking about half-life, and levels, seems a bit nonproductive.

I am trying to cull by 4 yrs myself.

I have noticed in big feral hives there are abandoned areas of comb. Its dry and brittle and wax moths everywhere. the bees seem to go back and forth within enclosure. my thinking is they do this so the moths eat all the old comb, destroy parasites and disease, and the bees move back a year or two later. So yes, feral bees roatte there comb more frequently tham many beeks.

Following directions sounds so easy!
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brer
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 11:00:08 AM »

That brings up a real interesting point.

Could wax moths in the wild actually be symbionts with the bees?

In a domestic hive, old wax is either removed or used due to the efficiency of a langstroth hive. Could this be upsetting what would be in the wild a beneficial balance by forcing the waxmoths onto good comb?

Are wax moths in the wild part of what keeps the hive healthy?  Cleaning up old wax and making room for new?

Sorry, just having odd thoughts.

 
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doak
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2010, 10:27:13 PM »

Not such odd thoughts. It's reality.
Like was said already, the bees need a wide verity of pollen. Also when the immune system is low, ( just like us Humans) we get attacked.  Only takes one thing to set it off if a number of the other right things are there already.

I started in the spring with 3 colonies, 2 with good numbers and one with small numbers. it never came out of it. the other two are doing fine but did not produce any surplus. :)doak
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rdy-b
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2010, 01:00:20 AM »

That brings up a real interesting point.

Could wax moths in the wild actually be symbionts with the bees?

In a domestic hive, old wax is either removed or used due to the efficiency of a langstroth hive. Could this be upsetting what would be in the wild a beneficial balance by forcing the waxmoths onto good comb?

Are wax moths in the wild part of what keeps the hive healthy?  Cleaning up old wax and making room for new?

Sorry, just having odd thoughts.

 
I always thought it was the MICE that where the helpers for comb rotation- grin Wink RDY-B
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