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Author Topic: You won't convince me....  (Read 4785 times)
pdmattox
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2008, 09:09:45 AM »

"Re: You won't convince me...." And they still try.. fishhit

P.S. I am with you sean.
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NWIN Beekeeper
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2008, 09:51:34 AM »

Re: You won't convince me...." And they still try..

[can I finish that sentence? ]

incite a riot.

Bjorn cites a lot of viotile chemicals but they are the elements that evaporate as the paint dries.
IF one could prove that the paint continues to off-gas, then I might reconsider my stance.
Its my opinion that the paint dries and is as inert as anyother surface that the queen walks on.

-Jeff


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Cindi
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« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2008, 09:54:13 AM »

My question has not been answered.  Has there been any studies done on the strength of the exoskeleton of a queen bee, to see if any of these chemicals are absorbed through this protective layer, does anyone know?  Just curiosity, and that never got this cat.  Beautiful and most wonderful day and life, great health.  Cindi
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« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2008, 12:17:43 PM »

Gentlemen,...Skin, the hardened back/thorax of a bee, and let's say even the shell of a turtle - they should all yeild different absorbtion rates, should they not?...

My question has not been answered.  Has there been any studies done on the strength of the exoskeleton of a queen bee, to see if any of these chemicals are absorbed through this protective layer, does anyone know?  Just curiosity, and that never got this cat.  Beautiful and most wonderful day and life, great health.  Cindi

Actually, I think rate of absorption would be one of the most relevant things to look at if there is a comparison or a case to be made.  It's one of the most important things that would form the basis for this 'study'.  It's what ensures that you're not comparing apples to oranges...
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BjornBee
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2008, 02:18:20 PM »

Not sure if anyone is reading into my previous comments about it being a moot point in the differences between absorption rates. But let me add to this so, I can clarify what I was commenting.

Knowing the absorption rates between a bee, human skin, and a turtle, only lets you set the  level for these individual items being tested. You can not make assumptions on how a turtle shell obsorbs something and then some how relate that to a bee. The same for the effects or ability to maintain a level within the items tested, as each tested item may have unique qualities effecting the levels retained or lost.

What I'm saying is, if you want to know the absorption rate of a bee, you test the bee. Not the turtle or human. You want to test the bee for how a chemical reacts, effects, changes, or impacts egg production or overall health for a bee, you test the bee. Not a turtle. A turtle may very well be able to flush out chemicals that a bee can not. Or vice-versa. I can not speak for a turtle, but I know humans can withstand much more than a bee can handle, and we even have the ability for chemicals to be flushed from our systems, depending what they are. We do not die at 4 parts per billions, but bees have been proven to do so with some chemicals. The bees are much more sensitive to chemicals in the environment than we are.

I think a test along the lines of painting 20 queens, and having 20 queens not painted, all from the same graft, and from the same apiary, tested at some interval such as 6 months or a year. You can monitor supercedure rates, egg production, and anything else you would want to test. After the year, you do a chemical analysis to see how much of the known chemicals in the paint are still in the queens after the paint spot has been removed. You could also test the offspring if any chemicals are being passed along in eggs, etc.

We may find nothing, or we may find something. But with all the problems in the industry, I find it ironic that no testing that I know of has ever occurred. And the stuff we pull off the shelf of the hobby store shelf to paint queens with are questionable in my mind.

And if you think the stuff is completely harmless after the fumes burn off, then I dare you to paint one underarm with a enamel paint, and the other arm with hobby cement. Let it dry if you think its best. Then post a picture of both underarms each day. You can not wash it, you can not clean it. The paint and cement must remain for 30 days. If it flakes off, more would be applied.  Best part, is that if you do not make it for the 30 days, you lose nothing. I only ask for your honest participation. I think it will be interesting to see how long one can handle it once the irritation and rash starts. (irritation and rash would likely suggest far less than an inert substance) Anyone interested? I may be willing to pay a hundred dollars for the right experiment and participation. Not that proving me wrong would not be worth it already...  shocked (that's a double dare   grin  ) And you may get your picture in an article in one of the bee mags as a bonus. You can PM if you wish. I thought about one of the kids taking part but my wife said I'm nuts and does not think it's as safe as others suggest this stuff is. She's smart like that.   rolleyes

Someone can be part of a beekeeping experiment that would be long remembered. Come on....have some fun.

Cindi....don't hold your breathe..... grin
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Bee-Bop
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« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2008, 03:07:17 PM »

Glue on the arm:
Can't really comment about it being on the arm, however my wife is highly alergic to medical tape. She had 2 disks in her neck replaced, Guess What, they used Super Glue ! The incision about 1 & 1/2 in long was covered with Super Glue about 3/4 in wide. after about 6 weeks it began to peel off, Very, very minor visible scar.

Think that would cover your arm test ?

Oh I understand this is not a uncommon procedure, per the doctor.

Bee-Bop
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« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2008, 03:15:57 PM »

Bee-Bop,
They have all kinds of glue on the market for surgical and topical application in the medical field. So although I'm not doubting super glue was used, I also wonder why an approved glue that is readily available was not used. 

(Your not suggesting they used superglue off the store shelf are you?)

I know I have had discussions with others about "glue" used in the medical field, and some has called or referred to it as super-glue. But it was the medical approved type glue that was just being mentioned. They actually have a neat product called "liquid Band-aid" for topical application. And I know when my son hit his head on the coffee table, they glued the deep cut shut. Amazing stuff they now have on the market. At least in my son's case, they called it super glue, but it was clearly the stuff designed and produced for such medical procedures.


No substitution for the arm test would be adequate. I think that the stuff sold in the bee mags and the stuff used as the industry norm would be what we would need to test.
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charlotte
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« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2008, 04:45:41 PM »

I don't mark my queens, I too am concerned about the paint.  I have gone to ear tags.  fishhit
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Robo
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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2008, 07:31:36 PM »

I've come to my senses as well and will never mark another bee again.   


I have decided to go with RFID tags instead.



Although there has never been a study to see the affect of propolis on the health of bees,  I have decided to use it to secure the RFID tags.  I know there is no correlation between humans and bees when it comes to what and what doesn't cause health issues, but I have had propolis on my skin for extended periods of time with no adverse reaction,  so at least I feel good about it tongue
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BjornBee
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« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2008, 07:41:56 PM »

 Robo,
grin

I think there was some article, not sure if it was just humor or not, but I read about bar-coding bees.

I personally just name all mine. The queens were easy, the workers are the diffucult ones. And those name tags can be hard to pin on....  shocked
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Cindi
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« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2008, 09:17:11 PM »

Well, well, well....that was a great and interesting thread.  AND...I'm gonna hold my breath, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah!!! shocked Smiley Smiley Smiley  Have the most wonderful and awesome of days, great health, Cindi
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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2008, 09:43:13 PM »

Nevermind paint on my back for the rest of my life. I prefer to sit for 21 days in a small unventilated room with formic acid pads to breath in. Twice a year. grin  evil
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2008, 09:50:10 PM »

Well, you haven't convinced me.  Although I don't use paint anyway cuz' I'm just too lazy to bother.  But I'd agree it does get more important with breeding queens and tracking age.

I'm not saying that the stuff in the paint isn't bad.  But really, is a carcinogen a problem in a creature that lives only 1 or 2 years?  

As far as off-gassing goes, most of that is done by the time the paint is dry.  C'mon...don't tell me you've never sniffed paint!!  Probably more in proportion to your size than a queen gets.  I have, and I'm pretty sure that JohnnyBigFish (can mead be carcinogenic??)  and a few others here have done a bit of that  tongue, and we're still around and kicking!! grin  Really, wat damag can a litl bit od paint dooo?

Go ahead and do the testing, it would be interesting to see, but I think more damage is done from the misapplication of the paint to the queen than the paint itself.

Rick
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2008, 11:21:04 PM »

But wouldn't it be interesting to know if a lineage of painted queens were superceded more often,or if the offspring mortality increased because of progressive generations of marked queens? It could be a small part of the cumulative effects on colony health. Or it could be nothing at all.
  The point is well taken that we do not know if there is zero or a negative effect.Do we really know for sure how long unmarked and unclipped queens last in the wild? Probably not,but with marked queens we do know how old she is.
 It would be an interesting study indeed. Maybe worthy of some bailout money for the bee industry!! Wink
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durkie
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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2008, 11:06:52 AM »

Not that I'm trying to convince you, but...

The carcinogen there is the xylene, which acts as a carrier for the fluorescent ink. Solvents like xylene are used for markers and such because they are volatile, so they evaporate away and leave the dry ink behind.

Why do you think a chemical like that, which a natural tendency to basically go away, would have anything more than a fleeting effect on bees, especially if the queen wasn't introduced until after the ink spot had dried?

I'm not trying to discourage you...the most interesting results definitely come from challenging previous knowledge, but just curious about your line of thought there.
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bhough
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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2008, 01:18:12 PM »

Bought a nuc from Bjorn bee spring 2007.  Simply beautiful.  Mike is a class act.  They did so well I split them this spring and both are growing like crazy.  I don't know as much as he does about chemicals and such, but if you can judge by his product, he knows what he is doing.

Hope you are doing well Bjornbee!
b
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BjornBee
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2008, 03:56:29 PM »

Not that I'm trying to convince you, but...

The carcinogen there is the xylene, which acts as a carrier for the fluorescent ink. Solvents like xylene are used for markers and such because they are volatile, so they evaporate away and leave the dry ink behind.

Why do you think a chemical like that, which a natural tendency to basically go away, would have anything more than a fleeting effect on bees, especially if the queen wasn't introduced until after the ink spot had dried?

I'm not trying to discourage you...the most interesting results definitely come from challenging previous knowledge, but just curious about your line of thought there.

Update.....

Not sure xylene is the carcinogenic item. From the MSDS I just received from the company, they also have Ethel benzene listed, as "an IARC Group 2B - Possible Carcinogen"

The items listed for just the Hazardous ingredients are:
VM&P Naphtha
Ethyl Benzene
Xylol (xylene)
High Boiling Aliphatic Hydrocarbon
Anti flooding agent
Diarylide Yellow pigment
Copper Phthalocyanine Pigment

But wait it gets better.....

Primary routes of Entry for health hazard concerns.......Inhalation and SKIN CONTACT! Imagine that, they list skin contact as a primary route for health effects.

Under emergency procedures, under "skin contact", it states ...If irritation persists, get medical attention". Now how can skin contact problems exist if once it's dried, it is harmless as some suggest? Hmmm.

Under "special protection Information", it calls and states "avoid prolonged or repeated breathing of vapors, mists and/or dust". Hmmmm....does not sound like the inert material suggested after the fumes burn off, if they are concerned about "dust". Bees cleaning and chewing on those paint spots....another Hmmmm.

I'm not typing out the whole MSDS. But it covers dangers to prolonged contact with the paint (even dried), animal testing with liver, lung and kidney damage, internal hemorrhage if ingested, and so on.

The discussion I had with the company involved if any testing was ever conducted for bees or insects. Answer..No! They said the paint is produced for non-contact painting, and they do not reccomend applying it to human, insect, or animal. They acknowledged they know beekeepers do use their product, but also have nice liability statements about using the product for what it is designed and produced for. And they will not openly state that is should be used on bees.

Again, I'm not trying to undermine marking queens. I'm just suggesting that the beekeeping industry should look at all aspects of hive health. And I find it amazing that this is the best product produced and manufactured for painting queens. Only when the industry DEMANDS change, will that come about. And I acknowledge it may never happen. I just wish we had more to go on than pulling products off a shelf.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2008, 03:58:21 PM »

Bought a nuc from Bjorn bee spring 2007.  Simply beautiful.  Mike is a class act.  They did so well I split them this spring and both are growing like crazy.  I don't know as much as he does about chemicals and such, but if you can judge by his product, he knows what he is doing.

Hope you are doing well Bjornbee!
b

Thank you. Glad to hear all is well.
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« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2008, 11:08:57 AM »

 Queen bees don't hire attorneys, if they did you would see all kinds of warnings.
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Brandy
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« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2008, 11:01:07 AM »

Bjorn,
So, I'm looking at my bottles of Testors acrylic paints that say Non Toxic, Water Wash up.  But I also see that they include glycol ethers.  They seem to think this isn't good for your eyes, but no mention of skin hazards etc...  Is it your thought's that there is nothing on the market that would be safe for marking queens???
I have to admit I thought these were safe, and I find it extremely helpful being able to differentiate queens by their colored markings. 

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