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Author Topic: WRITTEN BY A 15 yr. Old SCHOOL KID IN ARIZONA : New Pledge of Allegiance  (Read 11321 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2010, 02:11:39 PM »

Aw, go on and stir it  grin

let me see if i can make my point (and only mine) a little more clearly.

you believe that murder, rape, adultery, etc. are wrong.  why?  because our society has taught us it's wrong.  why?  because our society has been based on the judeo-chirstian belief system that says they are wrong.  that has nothing to do with  what you personally choose to believe.  it is simply the foundation of our society and we need to acknowledge it.

less than 100  years ago, you might have been brought up in a society that said it was fine to murder and eat your neighbor, and take his wife and daughter as a sex slave.  a few centuries ago, you might have been brought up to believe that your child should be in the lottery for live sacrifice to the gods. 

man does not choose do do what we consider good because there is some inner regulator that tells him murder, etc. is wrong.  we choose not to engage in those things you listed because of the foundation of our society.  if we destroy our foundation, what happens?  if our society is destroyed, what regulates the choices that people make if they choose not to follow that judeo-christian teaching? 
this is what i want people to think about before they are so quick to throw a system that has, for the most part, served us well.  my own opinion is that if we or our government destroy our foundation, people will not self regulate.  in the absence of individual moral regulation, we will need government regulation.
i think this is what was meant by John Adams:  Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. i
it was not that he wanted everyone to be a christian, but that if we were going to have minimal government, there had to be something else that regulated behavior.

i think your position is perfectly reasonable.  it is very much like my own, although my belief system is different.  Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2010, 03:34:39 PM »

Quote
you believe that murder, rape, adultery, etc. are wrong.  why?  because our society has taught us it's wrong.  why?  because our society has been based on the judeo-chirstian belief system that says they are wrong

Not necessarily.   I don't normally jump into these discussions, but I know that with at least kathy,  I can trust it won't degrade beyond an intelligent discussion...

I am not christian.  I am not atheist either.   I am topixqui and recognize Teyocoyani  (in english, you would call him the Creator).

I and many people I know of did not grow up amongst christians but others like ourselves and we manged to learn the same lessons.   I know kathy is not saying only christians have these values but  I would like to point out in general that regardless of what most people think,  not all Americans "inherit" or are guided by christianity or christian morals.

I agree with bulldog that I have no real problem interacting with people of other religious beliefs or no religious beliefs so long as they aren't trying to  force those onto others around them.  As a matter of fact, as topixqui, we are generally encouraged not to proselytize those around us.  Our ways are for us and for those who come to us seeking these ways.  Our ways are not for "recruitment".  We hope others around us can reciprocate.

There are some people though, who automatically assume that if you are not a christian, you are either devoid of values and morals or that they are deviant and wicked.  Usually, these folks are the loudest in the room and get the most attention, sad but true.

I like to be part of "open eyed" religious discussions where the tone of the discussion is "We can share our ideas with others without feeling threatened or intimidated to change."  These types of discussions can be a lot of fun and help one to learn what makes other people "tick".  it also can help to understand why people do what they do and what they intend instead of assuming based on our own beliefs or being misguided by others who don't know either.

there are some people who carry a chip on their shoulder, sometimes because they have had too many bad experiences or sometimes simply because they are the type of person who isn't happy unless they and everyone around them is miserable.   (is it me or does it seem there are a lot more of those types of folks around these days?)

I know that for a bee forum, this is where I get some of my favorite non-bee related online discussions at.

oh,  one last thing....I was always my understanding that the U.S. Constitution, and consequently the gov't, was not so much based on christianity, but the recognition of "God" (by whichever name you know him) and that as a nation, we respect that all we have is because it is what he has provided us.  Our "rights come from him and cannot be taken away by man.  Again, not only a christian view of things.

and on beemaster comment about having a right to say something. We always have the right to say our piece, but I am sure you will agree that far too often, people seem to forget that having a right does not exclude one from dealing with the consequences of our words or actions.

consequences like getting kicked off a forum or punched in the face or kissed on the cheek (if you said something nice).  actions, like speaking, have consequences.  All the Constitution says is that we can't be arrested or punished by the government for doing so.  All the other consequences are still out there, just waiting.


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« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2010, 03:39:57 PM »

Now Kathy. From the view point of a non-believer it would be that as man evolved and dependencies on societal interactions for survival became more the norm, then people started seeing where each person had as much right as the other person. Then as man started feeling there must be more, they had to create a god so there would be an after life. Then of course if you wanted to get to the promised land you had to be a good little boy/girl.

As man started laying claim to various things, land, wives, what ever, then perhaps they decided to make it wrong for someone to covet it because soon they would devise a way to take it.

What I am saying is a non-believer can see where man decided what was right and wrong. Saying man can not do good things without a god is the religious person's point of view.

Just my point of view.  grin
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« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2010, 04:10:17 PM »

bigbear, i think you help make my point.  our moral values are based on our belief system.  i'm sure not all NAs had the same belief systems that you were taught.  what you consider moral, might not have been the same for them.

i intentionally use judeo-christian, rather than christian.  some of our founders were Deist in the old definition of the word.  they did not necessarily believe in the divinity of Christ, but they did believe in a divine god.  judeo-chiristian covers a belief system and rules for behavior that one or the other might not cover.

jerrymac, we have to many examples of man behaving badly to accept your premise.  look at the behavior in NO after Katrina.  not all people were looting and shooting, but there certainly was no structure and individuals were not standing up to those who were looting and shooting.  imagine how that might have gone if no one had stepped in to restore order.  what would that city be like now?  

man will eventually make rules that create structure, but when they do, it usually ends up with a few very strong taking over the majority of very weak.  most people are followers.  those that are leaders and have no moral structure, end up being very bad indeed.  the value of the judeo-christian structure of our country is that it gives power to the individual rather than the government by recognizing that rights are god given, rather than man/government given.

my only point is that each society builds on some set of rules.  usually those rules have a god or gods involved.  once that structure is in place, it is dangerous to try to destroy it or even to substantially change it.  again, we have examples.  one of the most extreme but easiest to analyze is the French revolution.  another good one is the communist revolution in china.

so, i'm not pushing judeo-christianity as an individual choice for everyone.  only that we recognize it's value as a foundation for our society and oppose those that would try to destroy that foundation.  there can be no vacuum when it comes to the structure of a society. we can not co-exist with chaos.   i would rather have a system that recognizes the rights and value of the individual  than one that imposes the will of the government.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bigbearomaha
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« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2010, 04:12:13 PM »

not necessarily.

to many religions, it is appreciated that God gave people free will.  to do good or bad, right or wrong, in essence, man does not need God to do good or bad, it is in his ( man's) hands to do either ir-regardless.

at least, that's one way of seeing it.
Quote
i'm sure not all NAs had the same belief systems that you were taught.  what you consider moral, might not have been the same for them.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion.  That would be like saying all europeans weren't christian.   I think that's pretty obvious and not really relevant to the fact that for those who follow one creator, the majority are most likely to have similar values, in my experience.
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« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2010, 04:36:34 PM »

but we are not talking about individual beliefs, we are talking about the structure of our society.  man can choose to do wrong.  man often does choose to do wrong.  what is our definition of wrong and why do we have it?  we are not head hunters.  we are not cannibals.  those might have been the norms for some societies, but we chose something different.  we are a nation of laws, but the laws we chose are based on the judeo-christian belief system rather than the Mayan live sacrifice to the gods stystem.  we could have chosen anything but we have what we have and it seems to work pretty well....most of the time.

i don't think we are far apart, maybe just saying it in a different way.  we all have different personal beliefs.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2010, 04:56:29 PM »

OK perhaps I was in the wrong argument.

Are we discussing the morals of this country being based on religion

OR

Are we discussing man not capable of morality without religion? 
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« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2010, 05:05:23 PM »

Don't Worry Jerry by this point I am lost too. LOL  shocked
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« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2010, 05:21:44 PM »

yes, kind of, to the first, and not really to the second.

we are talking about the laws of this land being bases on moral principles found (not exclusively) in judeo-christian beliefs.  and

the ideas of morality are different from one society to another and are usually based in a shared belief system or at lease an acceptance of the values of that belief system.  and

that if you destroy the basis for the societies morality, whatever it is, you run a real risk of destroying the society...unless you can quickly replace the old system with a new.  because

 man left to his own, is not a nice creature.

 grin

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2010, 05:38:57 PM »

just a little thought as i am reading a good book, One Second After.  seems to me it's worth having these little academic discussions.  it's worth thinking about what we have and why.  what might happen if we did have to change our society and structure were removed. 

gaming these things is kind of fun and also makes us think.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2010, 05:54:16 PM »

bulldog writes:
the problem is, as i see it, that both sides of the arguement take the " give them an inch and they'll take a mile" mentality which leads both sides to the extremes. suddenly  not forcing anyone to pray in schools becomes nobody can pray in schools under any circumstance, but this also violates the rights of those who wish to pray. there is an often forgotten part of the 1st ammendment that is usually never taken into consideration in my opinion. "congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free excersize thereof " that last little bit is supposed to guarranty the rights of those who choose to pray in schools but seems that it is often overlooked. why is it acceptable to read a bible or pray in a prison, but not in a school ? seems a little silly doesn't it ?

tecumseh:
well stated.  we however don't get to a full understanding of any question by excluding any voice... large or small.  a monologue is not a conversation.  right or left... you might as well preach to the choir.  I would think we would all do better to listen a bit more intently.

jerrymac writes:
Are we discussing the morals of this country being based on religion

OR

Are we discussing man not capable of morality without religion?

tecumseh:
a pretty large question no matter how you define it...

I always enjoyed the old Rabbi adage... honor thy mother and father and the rest is just minor detail.

likely just... snip...
some new riddle of word-wastagejavascript:ajaxChat.insertText('%3B)');

.



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« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2010, 06:05:31 PM »

I was just going to say if we were talking about the second one then I would have to stick to my original thought on it. After all we have some animals to look at. Like a pack of dogs, a pride of lions and a troop (is it troop?) of monkeys. They have their little rules and regulations about how to act within their society or they get taught a great lesson. While they may not seem as civilized as people are, it is still there.
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« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2010, 06:24:08 PM »

Quote
we however don't get to a full understanding of any question by excluding any voice

debate is good.  it requires that you learn both sides of an argument.  even arguing is good, to a point.  however, someone who appears to have entered a conversation with no other goal than to antagonize or prove a preconceived notion, is not worth the time and does not contribute to the conversation.

i'll debate anyone on almost anything , and even, on occasion, lose....with good grace, i hope.  grin  there are times i might even lose my temper, but expect to be called on it if i do.  what i can't abide is someone looking to be offend.  they will always find what they are looking for, even if it's not there.

i don't think the greenbee came for conversation or debate.  i have no say in his staying or going and i don't care one way or another.

Quote
While they may not seem as civilized as people are, it is still there.

ah...but define civilization!   evil

sorry jerrymac.  just messing with you.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2010, 07:40:03 PM »

Civilization

Sid Meier's Civilization is a turn-based strategy computer game created by Sid Meier for MicroProse in 1991.[1] The game's objective is to "...build an empire to stand the test of time". The game begins in 4000 BC, and the players attempt to expand and develop their empires through the ages until modern and near-future times. It is also known simply as Civilization, or abbreviated to Civ or Civ I.

 grin grin grin
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« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2010, 07:56:23 PM »

 grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2010, 08:02:36 PM »

KathyP,Careful what ya ask for!!! grin
 
Great reply Jerry!
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« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2010, 11:08:11 PM »

This has been and continues to be an interesting post.

To Beesneeds: Please, after 22 posts I ask you so very kindly to let us know where you are from. I ready your posts just to see if you brought it up, and you said where you'd like to move, vaguely brought up Chicago, but I'm still befuddled. (wow befuddled was in the spell check - lol).

I'm glad you like it here, I guess that's why I don't mind going off on those who like to make it their battle ground. That is why we only ask two things really of new members 1) be kind to others and 2) let us know where you are from, especially when asking bee questions - it really makes a difference when trying to help with an appropriate answer.

If you have trouble working the Profile section, just let us know and we'll take car of it Smiley

Otherwise, I wanted to answer the question you posted concerning the Ten Commandments and Christians. I really don't think it stops at Christians, because if nothing else, I think it is a good set of rules that anyone could be a better person if they lived by them. Even if someone sees issues with some, surely they should be hard pressed to find disagreement with all 10. And although I think it mostly common sense for someone living a righteous life, at least trying to - I do believe it can stir positive thoughts in people or any religion, or no religion at all - and that is how I have always "seen" them.

It's not a theological answer surely, but one of being a good/ at least better human by having some laws/morals to guide you trough life's journey. I hope that make sense, it has worked pretty well for me and all I hope to do in this life is live a better tomorrow then I did the day before.

Peace Smiley
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« Reply #77 on: November 24, 2010, 08:11:54 AM »

greensbee writes:
And another slander if I'm reading you right.  Equating atheism/humanism to Nazis and Communists if I'm reading you right.

beemaster writes:
Tell you what, 8 posts and there's not hardly a person here doesn't want to see you tossed out the forum door, including me.

tecumseh as 'hardly a person':
looks like a pretty good case that someone is using a personal bias and a pretty heavy coup stick to provide protection for those that can not rhetorically defend their own ideas.  not so clever and not so well considered.  idealogical paternalism would seem to be the right terms.

I don't think I noticed the specific rule where any and all rhetorical deconstruction (very well done in this case) of all right wing ideas will get the poster banned?  Is the coffee house for the exclusive use of only those folks with 'extreme' right wing thinking?

e mails I have received would suggest I am not alone in this analysis.

and have a most excellent Thanksgiving...
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« Reply #78 on: November 24, 2010, 10:39:46 AM »

as much as i find your presentation annoying at time, you contribute to the board with your beekeeping knowledge.  you are not here simply to pick a fight. you make good points even if i disagree with you, or think that you could have made your point in a more respectful way.  you have not been here long, so you might not be aware that people come here from time to time just to make trouble.  there might be a good example of that over in the general forum right now.

i would not presume to speak for beemaster, but i have been here long enough to wonder about a person who comes and immediately jumps into the coffee house but does not contribute to the beekeeping side.  he pretty much admitted that he came with preconceived notions and a desire to test our tolerance.  i think we are pretty tolerant of most things.  again, examples in the general forum.

however, i call things as i see them and try very hard to do that without personal attack.  i will make personal observations, as i have with you.  he chose to take general comments as though they were directed at him, and only him and his belief system.  he also chose to call me a bigot.  i realize the meaning of that word has become very broad...but....

this board belongs to beemaster.  as he has pointed out, this is not a democracy.  he does give wide latitude up to the point where people become abusive.  
i try to assume that people do not intend for their posts to sound snotty or abusive.  god knows we all have our bad days.  sometimes, as greenbee has done, people  just insist on proving that they really are jerks.



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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2010, 12:57:43 PM »

kathyp writes:
i would not presume to speak for beemaster, but i have been here long enough to wonder about a person who comes and immediately jumps into the coffee house but does not contribute to the beekeeping side.  he pretty much admitted that he came with preconceived notions and a desire to test our tolerance.

tecumseh:
well it appears you are assuming quite a bit here miss kathy with very limited evidence.  first of all I suspect most folks that come to bee keeping sites are novice and may well read a lot of post prior to making even one post.  most forum type sites eventually provide 'tell us about yourself' just to get the new folks to post something.  this adds to traffic which then computes into any advertisement space being of increased value*.

then kathyp writes:
i think we are pretty tolerant of most things.

tecumseh:
what's with the we?  do you have some say so in these kinds of things?

then kathyp writes:
i call things as i see them and try very hard to do that without personal attack.  i will make personal observations, as i have with you.  he chose to take general comments as though they were directed at him, and only him and his belief system.  he also chose to call me a bigot.

tecumseh:
name calling like 'arrogant' or 'thin skinned' are not personal attacks?  how is such name calling not also demeaning?

if you converse with the same language as a hater then some folks will toss you in the same crowd as the bigot.  I am not certain this connection is always fair (I have never much abided by the quilt by association thingee) but that is how a lot of folks think.  I personally don't think you are... however, as I think I have suggest to you previously you do seem quite unaware that you frequently use right wing sound bites that you seem to present as some kind of unquestionable truth.  ANY questioning of these 'truth' seems to only produce the piling on of the like minded and more name calling.

*as far as I can tell over my life time the bee business has always been narrow in the business sense of the word.  casually running clients aways for some personal bias is likely eventually self destructive (likely some crazy idea I picked up from a fellow by the name of Peter Drucker-sp?).
     






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