Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
April 20, 2014, 02:56:00 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: 24/7 Ventrilo Voice chat -click for instructions and free software here
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Warre hive experiences  (Read 23302 times)
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2008, 09:54:49 AM »

Good for business???

I admit that was a little pretentious on my part.  Sometimes I get a little worked up in these discussions rolleyes


I still maintain that a marked queen reduces a lot the stress and issues for the beginner/hobbyist and the bees.

Worked up  huh Maybe I can give you a few pointers on being laid back... grin  Some say, I get worked up, but they are fools I tell you...Fools!  tongue

Proper technique, finding eggs instead of the queen, and inspecting enough to know if you have queen cells, is all good things, that can lower stress regardless of whether one has a marked queen or not. I personally do not buy into the whole "Inspect once a year or your stressing your bees" ideas. I promote opening up the hive and knowing whats going on. If it helps a new beekeeper find queens, than marking is good. My point in all this is to highlight IF marking queens is good, when little is known of the products we use, grab off shelves, etc. I agree that queens are easier to find if marked, and I like that. I spend much time finding queens. But not at the expense of queen or hive health, to which I am not convince it does not harm.
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6348


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2008, 10:01:41 AM »



http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,6699.msg39618.html#msg39618
Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2008, 10:12:40 AM »

Thanks Robo.
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
Paraplegic Racehorse
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 146

Location: Richland, Benton County, Washington State

Kilted beekeepers unite!


WWW
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2008, 01:32:09 PM »

(1) ... the entire unit is lifted and a new box with bars and strips is inserted into the assembly.  To do this with a Lang set up, I would take each box off separately and then restack.  I am guessing from your posts that this would be contraindicated with a Warre hive due to damaging comb.  Do you recommend unstacking the boxes and restacking or trying to lift the whole assembly as a unit?

Lift the whole thing as a unit and place empty boxes beneath. Remember, this is done in the spring before honey is laid up, so you are only lifting some boxes, wax and the early spring cluster. I do not recommend trying this in July without some sort of mechanical aide. Also remember that a Warre box is approximately 1/3 the size of a Lang deep and proportionately less heavy and the smaller cross-section makes it much easier to grasp.

Quote
(2)Is bottom supering with Lang equipment a good idea too?  If so, why?  Has the common practice of top supering simply been a matter of time and convenience?

Probably time and convenience. It will not hurt to bottom super. Some will tell you that the left-over cacoon from brood raising will somehow "taint" the honey - and this may be the case if you chemically treat your hives in the spring!!! - but if so, only the most discerning palates will notice.

Quote
(3)  Does Brian's 8 frame method address the retained heat issue as well as the access to stores issue?  I note that both Brian Bray and Michael Bush both advance natural cell with 8 frame equipment and both post good results.  It would seem, at lest in their experience, that the space between the frame and the hive body is not a significant source of heat loss (or at least not a source that has proven detrimental on a widescale basis).

The eight-frame lang equipment does not PURPOSELY address the heat issue, because it is commonly thought that there is NO heat issue regarding cavity size. It does reduce the cross-sectional area of the hive considerably (approx 20%) and therefore does affect the internal heat. It should be noted that many beeks find it easier to overwinter in nucs than full-size hives, particularly in colder climates. 

Quote
(4)  Is there a negative effect of hive heat on the pests and diseases that plague the bees

Yes! It has been shown (sorry, can't find the paper, but I will and will post it up later) that a warmer brood chamber DOES adversely affect V. Destructor reproduction. Also, this advantageous heat condition quite likely reduces colony "stress" (however you define it) which lowers the risk of other dis-eases reaching dangerous levels of expression - DO note, however, that almost every known bee "illness" is already inside almost every hive and you only have to worry if it/they reach epidemic proportions.
Logged

I'm Paraplegic Racehorse.
Member in good standing: International Discordance of Kilted Apiarists, Local #994

The World Beehive Project - I endeavor to build at least one of every beehive in common use today and document the entire process.
Paraplegic Racehorse
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 146

Location: Richland, Benton County, Washington State

Kilted beekeepers unite!


WWW
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2008, 02:25:45 PM »

Yes! It has been shown (sorry, can't find the paper, but I will and will post it up later) that a warmer brood chamber DOES adversely affect V. Destructor reproduction.


Found it. Harris et al, Journal of Environmental Entomology 32(6): 1305-1312 (2003)

from the Abstract:

Quote
... residual error reflected most of the total variation in r7, which suggested possible climatic or environmental effects on mite growth. The lowest growth rates occurred in three consecutive years of substantial drought in Louisiana. Measures of ambient temperature and relative humidity correlated to growth of mite populations among different years. Reduced growth rates were probably the result of diminished reproductive rates by varroa mites during periods of hot and dry weather.


I do not believe - or at least have not been able to find - any research attempting to separate the importance of temperature or moisture on mite reproductive levels.
Logged

I'm Paraplegic Racehorse.
Member in good standing: International Discordance of Kilted Apiarists, Local #994

The World Beehive Project - I endeavor to build at least one of every beehive in common use today and document the entire process.
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2008, 10:55:33 PM »

I like this thread.

Having thought about it, I've decide that my ideal hive would be a 2 ft section of 12 inch conduit with a bottom entrance.  The frame bars would be made much like those in a TBH only with a wooden hoop that looked like an elongated upside down stirrup (a U with a topbar).  Bee space would be maintained and harvesting would be by crush and strain on the outer frames.  The comb orientation would also be more like what is found in nature.
In such a configuration I would expect to have about 6 frames (1 3/4 inches wide) with the bees cluster near the top.  This as close as I can come to what one finds in a hollow tree.  They would enter and pull stores from the bottom up.  The open bottom would allow pests and housecleaning to be more automatic and less stressful for the bees. 
If the hive were built on rocket ship legs a smaller section 1 ft high could be used for harvesting of honey.  It would be attached to the bottom to insure that the bees would have enough stores before they made some for the caretaker.

Comments?
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6348


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2008, 07:37:21 AM »

Comments?


Personally,  I would go with shorter sections, say 8",  and do away with the "U" shaped frames which reduces the complexity to build and lets the bees secure the wax to the walls.

Here is some more stuff to ponder -> http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fruche-warre.levillage.org%2FRuche%2520ronde.htm&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fr&tl=en
Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2008, 02:30:14 PM »

Comments?


Personally,  I would go with shorter sections, say 8",  and do away with the "U" shaped frames which reduces the complexity to build and lets the bees secure the wax to the walls.

Here is some more stuff to ponder -> http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fruche-warre.levillage.org%2FRuche%2520ronde.htm&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fr&tl=en


The link was much appreciated, thanks.

If it weren't for the requirement in almost every state to keep bees in hives with removeable frames I would porbably agree with you but I believe the ability (really the necessity) of being able to inspect the inter-most sanctums of the hive is too important to discard.  I'm thinking of getting one of the concrete interlocking conduits that are about 3 feet long and building frames to hang in it and test out the theory a bit more.  What would be really neat would be to find some large sized clear plastic cylinders and build an observation hive that could be wrapped during the winter.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2008, 04:30:50 PM »

Going beyond the report listed in PR post, you can find much information on heat, and the relationship it plays in mite reproduction.

A couple things....

Heat has been shown to effect mite reproduction. Even a slight one or two degrees increase from normal hive temps can reduce mite levels.

A hive that can not properly heat the brood area due to a number of reasons, can have a dramatic effect in increases of mite populations.

Don't confuse studies that focus on "heat" in attempts to control mites, and other research that focuses on brood temps, hot summers, and other data. They are not the same.

The report mentioned above does in fact take into account a hotter summer, but this is also coupled with drought and humidity issues. The report makes assumptions, and one should keep this in mind. Was it the drought and hotter summer that suppressed brood production from a lack of nectar, which in turn effected mite populations? Or was other internal factors at play. It is hard to say.

Warre, understood the benefits of a warm hive. It had little to do with benefits from heat above the normal hive temps maintained by bees, but perhaps more about diminishing the negative impacts of poor hive design and beekeeper management, and allowing bees to better cope with maintaining this heat.

I think many make assumptions that there is some "advantageous heat condition" that one can achieve by hive design. But bees are rather well skilled at maintaining a core brood chamber temp with little variation. And nobody has been able to show a practical way of increasing temps above what the bees normally desire. As the summer progresses, bees in any hive are moving downward, into the lower chambers where it is cooler. Heat that could really effect mites are at the top of the hive. (Anyone for top brood chambers and under-supering?  grin  )

Yes, there are studies that show heat levels that can effect mite reproduction. But it's not like there is any way to increase a brood core temp above what the bees want. You will just make the bees work that much harder in cooling the hive. But if you do everything to allow the bees to maintain PR0PER hive temps, then you are ahead of the curve.

Go back to Warre's days. Or even ten years ago. Every book out there mention afternoon shade for the ease to the beekeeper in working hives. Some even mentioned working bees early morning due to "slow" bees. No consideration on the impact of location in regards to sun/shade or anything was was given, or the dangers of opening a hive in cool weather. What Warre realized, was that MAINTAINING brood temps correctly, was a huge part of having healthy bees. And keep in mind, this was BEFORE mites were even ever heard of.

Going out designing new hives may be easier for bees in the sense they can maintain proper brood temps. But I am not convinced you need too. The report above has shown in hot summer with drought and low humidity, the same benefits of lower mites can be seen in traditional hive arrangements, as they all had standard hives. It's really a message about what NOT to do, as compared to making suggestions of what TO do.

This of course will fly in the face of people who promote unlimited brood chambers, people who promote checkerboarding, those that promote upper entrances, and those that reverse hive chambers, to name a few. Sometimes it may work, and other times, especially for those that do not understand the importance of "maintained" hive heat, it can be a real negative for the bees to overcome.

What Warre was saying, is quit all the manipulations and CRAP! Bees will regulate hive temps, and be healthier if your not doing stupid things trying to always build a better mousetrap. Understanding the importance of the hive temps, how this effects hive health, and how to use this knowledge on keeping better bees, is what the message should be. The bees do their part, if you allow them too! And everyone does not need to run out and design new hives to take advantage of these points that Warre made.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 08:38:21 PM by BjornBee » Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 07:14:11 PM »

What Warre was saying, is quit all the manipulations and CRAP! Bees will regulate hive temps, and be healthier if your not doing stupid things trying to always build a better mousetrap. Understanding the importance of the hive temps, how this effects hive health, and how to use this knowledge on keeping better bees, is what the message should be. The bees do their part, if you allow them too! And everyone does not need to run out and design new hives to take advantage of these points that Warre made.

I realize all of that and agree, but I like the idea of trying to imitate a bee tree, especially in an observational format.  Not trying to prove anything, just trying to learn something new.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2008, 08:53:41 PM »

What Warre was saying, is quit all the manipulations and CRAP! Bees will regulate hive temps, and be healthier if your not doing stupid things trying to always build a better mousetrap. Understanding the importance of the hive temps, how this effects hive health, and how to use this knowledge on keeping better bees, is what the message should be. The bees do their part, if you allow them too! And everyone does not need to run out and design new hives to take advantage of these points that Warre made.

I realize all of that and agree, but I like the idea of trying to imitate a bee tree, especially in an observational format.  Not trying to prove anything, just trying to learn something new.

I agree Brian. I keep as many types of hives as I can. I was trying to point out for those who think that one must have a Warre hive to take advantage of what Warre was suggesting, is not really needed. The same concepts can be applied and benefited from, in other hives. One can always argue the good, better, best points of one design or another. I'm just hoping that regardless of what type hives one has, the concepts and practical information that Warre taught, remains the same, and can be gained from.

I'll be putting one in this spring. Not because I'll be pushing them. But because they will be a great educational tool and others may be able to better understand the concepts, and perhaps apply the concepts to their own hives, regardless of type.

What I find amazing is that many of the same concepts have been spoken about by others and even myself for awhile. But sometimes you just feel others just think your crazy. But drag out some writings from a guy that's been dead awhile....and people actually listen..... grin  I, in no way feel one must adhere to the once a year opening of the hive that Warre promoted. And I guess some think on one hand I'm against Warre hives, as I have been outspoken about them. But it's the concepts and information that Warre gave us that I think is the true value.
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
rdy-b
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


Location: clayton ca


« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2008, 05:24:36 PM »

Comments?


Personally,  I would go with shorter sections, say 8",  and do away with the "U" shaped frames which reduces the complexity to build and lets the bees secure the wax to the walls.

Here is some more stuff to ponder -> http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fruche-warre.levillage.org%2FRuche%2520ronde.htm&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fr&tl=en


The link was much appreciated, thanks.

If it weren't for the requirement in almost every state to keep bees in hives with removeable frames I would porbably agree with you but I believe the ability (really the necessity) of being able to inspect the inter-most sanctums of the hive is too important to discard.  I'm thinking of getting one of the concrete interlocking conduits that are about 3 feet long and building frames to hang in it and test out the theory a bit more.  What would be really neat would be to find some large sized clear plastic cylinders and build an observation hive that could be wrapped during the winter.

this has been posted before but it is cool
   cool RDY-B
Logged
Irwin
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2343


Location: Lakeside OR

howdy all


« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2008, 08:17:31 AM »

  OB hive  grin
Logged

Fight organized crime!  Re-elect no one.
atemp2
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8

Location: Pacific Northwest USA


« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2008, 04:12:28 PM »

Quote from: Pond Creek Farm

(1) As with many things in beekeeping, I am ignorant of the whole bottom supering issue.  I see that a Warre hive would be supered from the bottom.  That is, the entire unit is lifted and a new box with bars and strips is inserted into the assembly.  To do this with a Lang set up, I would take each box off separately and then restack.  I am guessing from your posts that this would be contraindicated with a Warre hive due to damaging comb.  Do you recommend unstacking the boxes and restacking or trying to lift the whole assembly as a unit?  The latter approach seems like it would be quite heavy.

Warré "supering" from the bottom, a remarkable oxymoronic phrase, might better be termed sub-extension, or maybe just "subbing" for short. The Warré-Thür school is concerned mostly with non-disruption of the internal hive environment, Nestduftwärmebindung in German, literally hive-scent-warmth-binding. Understanding the importance of this concept is 100% vital to success in all methods of beekeeping, and in providing clues about how frame-based keeping is always full of kluges and contrivances to make up for its most basic flaws. Damaging the comb would be major trauma to be sure, but allowing nest scent and heat to escape through incessant vivisection is just as bad.

Quote
(2)Is bottom supering with Lang equipment a good idea too?  If so, why?  Has the common practice of top supering simply been a matter of time and convenience?

The Warré hive is a good compromise between bee-suitability and beekeeper manageability. The Langstroth and all similar wide, flat hives AND the management pathologies they engender are fatally flawed in that they mostly disregard the centrality of Nestduftwärmebindung.

Quote
(3)  Does Brian's 8 frame method address the retained heat issue as well as the access to stores issue?  I note that both Brian Bray and Michael Bush both advance natural cell with 8 frame equipment and both post good results.  It would seem, at lest in their experience, that the space between the frame and the hive body is not a significant source of heat loss (or at least not a source that has proven detrimental on a widescale basis).

The whole small-cell/natural-cell controversy disappears when the colony is permitted to build and manage its own comb. Next issue?

Quote
(4)  Is there a negative effect of hive heat on the pests and diseases that plague the bees, or is the heat issue simply a matter of keeping them warm and conserving energy?

Colonies thrive on heat and maintaining the internal pheromonal milieu. Parasites and diseases flourish in the drafty framed hive.

Quote
ps.  I will comment on the marked queen thing just for kicks and am wide open for criticism here.  I am a new beekeeper and have had an instance of queenlessness and countless occasions of opening the hive, not seeing a queen and then wondering if I am queenless. Robo's position has great merit for me.  I would love to able to see that dot when I am tearing into a hive to learn ( a practice I believe Bjorn advances as a good thing to do for folks like me).  Perhaps a dot on a queen is no big threat or perhaps it is, but in the end, I feel the relative threat of the paint to the queen versus the threat of me to the bees when I am concerned about not seeing a queen or not learning from my encounters with the queen is small...

Why is there a "love" of constantly getting in the queen's face, and of the disruption of the queen-attendant-brood space? If you reread Warré you'll find that regular management of this kind is the enemy of colony health, and is wholly unnecessary if one reads the external signs of being queenright.
Logged

---------------
“Never ask who's right. Start out by asking what is right. And you find that out by listening to dissenting, disagreeing opinions.” — Peter Drucker
atemp2
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8

Location: Pacific Northwest USA


« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2008, 06:49:31 PM »

Quote from: BjornBee
The whole quilt thing is but yet another way, that has been used over the years in moisture control, and is nothing unique unto itself. ... The whole, trapped heat concept is nothing new either. Yes, the concept is one I use, but I don't need an entire new hive design to take advantage of this.

One of the talking points about the warre hive, is that you should not open the hive but for couple times a year, etc. Which is crap to me in that beekeeping should be fun, educational, and beekeepers should be encouraged to open their hive every once in awhile. The way comb in stacked upon itself while making free hanging comb, makes inspections and opening the hive a real challenge as comb rips apart. It's no wonder you should open it as little as possible. Using under supering, while using natural comb in frames, is easily done with traditional hives with frames.

Sheesh, where to start...

1) “To avert the injurious effects of dampness or condensed moisture in common wooden hives, Christ recommends removing the top or cover in September, substituting a straw mat for it, and then laying the top or cover thereon.” (ABJ v1 n1, Jan. 1861, p.22). Dzierzon also anticipated the bufferbox by adding a straw “cap” atop the hive to mitigate the internal condensation problem.

Fine, that was 147 years ago. But I have not run across the common use of moisture-buffer / insulation cap aka "quilt" promoted for standard Lang or National hives. Maybe someone could provide references, links to pictures, or commercial web pages demonstrating just how widespread Lang quilts are.

2) Benign neglect of the Warré hive but for twice-yearly visits is not a side-effect of non-Alles-in-Ordnung comb organization or fragility. Natural comb OTOH is a consequence of non-framed, naturalistic design.

"... beekeepers should be encouraged to open their hive every once in awhile". It is unsupportable, given evidence of the negative consequences of chronic hive opening. Warré recognized this over 90 years ago without scientific evidence.

Splaying open the Bien like some vivisected animal every two weeks may qualify as "fun" for some sadists or obtuse agriculturalists, but any observant beek knows it is anything but good fun for the Bien itself.

3) It's put up or shut up time again: show us in any orthodox beek manual or reference that "under-supering" is common, advantageous, or preferred to the unnatural but commonest top-supering practice. If under-supering is practiced, exactly which problem is it supposed to solve? Why would top-supering be performed at all then?

4) You claim awareness of trapped heat, yet you think nothing of letting it and the hive scent dissipate frequently. If awareness doesn't alter behavior, what good is it?

5) As for "talking point", how about the dozen-odd diseases, parasites, and pathologies that framed beekeeping engender and encourage?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 08:20:14 AM by Robo » Logged

---------------
“Never ask who's right. Start out by asking what is right. And you find that out by listening to dissenting, disagreeing opinions.” — Peter Drucker
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2008, 07:33:07 PM »

Quote from: BjornBee
The whole quilt thing is but yet another way, that has been used over the years in moisture control, and is nothing unique unto itself. ... The whole, trapped heat concept is nothing new either. Yes, the concept is one I use, but I don't need an entire new hive design to take advantage of this.

One of the talking points about the warre hive, is that you should not open the hive but for couple times a year, etc. Which is crap to me in that beekeeping should be fun, educational, and beekeepers should be encouraged to open their hive every once in awhile. The way comb in stacked upon itself while making free hanging comb, makes inspections and opening the hive a real challenge as comb rips apart. It's no wonder you should open it as little as possible. Using under supering, while using natural comb in frames, is easily done with traditional hives with frames.

Sheesh, where to start...

1) “To avert the injurious effects of dampness or condensed moisture in common wooden hives, Christ recommends removing the top or cover in September, substituting a straw mat for it, and then laying the top or cover thereon.” (ABJ v1 n1, Jan. 1861, p.22). Dzierzon also anticipated the bufferbox by adding a straw “cap” atop the hive to mitigate the internal condensation problem.

Fine, that was 147 years ago. But I have not run across the common use of moisture-buffer / insulation cap aka "quilt" promoted for standard Lang or National hives. Maybe BjornBee could put up or shut up and provide references, links to pictures, or commercial web pages demonstrating just how widespread Lang quilts are.

2) Benign neglect of the Warré hive but for twice-yearly visits is not a side-effect of non-Alles-in-Ordnung comb organization or fragility. Natural comb OTOH is a consequence of non-framed, naturalistic design.

"... beekeepers should be encouraged to open their hive every once in awhile" is a cr*p statement to me and many others. It is unsupportable, given evidence of the negative consequences of chronic hive opening. Warré recognized this over 90 years ago without scientific evidence.

Splaying open the Bien like some vivisected animal every two weeks may qualify as "fun" for some sadists or obtuse agriculturalists, but any observant beek knows it is anything but good fun for the Bien itself.

3) It's put up or shut up time again: show us in any orthodox beek manual or reference that "under-supering" is common, advantageous, or preferred to the unnatural but commonest top-supering practice. If under-supering is practiced, exactly which problem is it supposed to solve? Why would top-supering be performed at all then?

4) You claim awareness of trapped heat, yet you think nothing of letting it and the hive scent dissipate frequently. If awareness doesn't alter behavior, what good is it?

5) As for "talking point", how about the dozen-odd diseases, parasites, and pathologies that framed beekeeping engender and encourage?


Now who could this be? Anyone with sore toes from a past conversation perhaps?

My days of responding "in-kind" to such posts are behind me.

I'll mention a few things, keeping it on the light side....  grin

One, I post my website, which has my address, and everything about me, my operation, etc. I have an open house every year, hold a picnic open to the public, extend invitations for others to partake in queen evaluation days, and openly invite anyone interested, to stop by, ask questions and look at anything they want. I do not hide behind a fake name on a forum, taking shots at people. I "put up" everytime I am asked, and invite people to see everything I do, say, and experience. Every year, I have hundreds of people see what I'm talking about. Can you say the same? 

Two, I have used sawdust, newspaper, obsorbent particle board and even grass, in playing around with ways to control or minmize moisture issues. Now, I have never claimed to use a "quilt", and never made a quilt as per Warre protocol. I'll see what I can do about a picture when the snow melts. But you act as if nobody has ever tried these things before, and use the excuse that since there are no commercial models being sold, you have the right to assume nobody ever did anything close to what Warre called for. Wrong.... Wink

Three, Please provide a list of the 12 parasites and diseases that the Warre hive is completely immune from? Better yet, as you mentioned, list the ones that are encouraged by the use of frames?

Four, I withhold further comments since I think asking questions or replying to members who feel that references to sadists and obtuse agriculturalists is called for, against those that open their hives twice a week.

Like many things, whether beekeeping, environmental issues, PETA, or anything else...there are a few that take it so far to the extreme, that common sense, respect for others, and descent conversation is lost on any attempt at dialog. And it turns otherwise interested people off.  I do not feel anyone is a sadist if they open a hive beyond what Warre called for. I would not even call a fellow beekeeper a sadist for those that use chemicals that I so adamantly comment on. But I guess that's where common sense and ignorance collide. A real shame.

I need to keep reading #3 again. I think you lost me.

Have a wonderful day.
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2008, 06:41:57 PM »

>3) It's put up or shut up time again: show us in any orthodox beek manual or reference that "under-supering" is common, advantageous, or preferred to the unnatural but commonest top-supering practice. If under-supering is practiced, exactly which problem is it supposed to solve? Why would top-supering be performed at all then?

The fact that under supering and top supering exist as terms should be a clue.  The concept is discussed often on beekeeping forums and in beekeeping magazines since the 1800's and up to today.  I heard several people discussing it at the Utah Beekeepers Association meeting and was just reading "Mastering the Art of Beekeeping" by Oromond Abei and he was a big proponent of under supering. He also holds the Guiness book of world records for the most honey from a one queen hive.

Those who are in favor of over supering believe it doesn't make enough difference to be worth lifting all those boxes.

Those who are in favor of under supering believe it does a better job of keeping them from swarming and incites them to work harder.

I'm sure the location of the entrance has an effect on the results as does the use or lack of a queen excluder.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
atemp2
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8

Location: Pacific Northwest USA


« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2008, 08:24:02 PM »

Quote from: BjornBee
One, I post my website, which has my address,... I have an open house every year, hold a picnic open to the public, extend invitations for others to partake in queen evaluation days, and openly invite anyone interested, to stop by,... I do not hide behind a fake name on a forum, taking shots at people. I "put up" everytime I am asked, and invite people to see everything I do, say, and experience. Every year, I have hundreds of people see what I'm talking about. Can you say the same? 

I was of course taken to task by this forum's omniscient Moderator about my apparently injudicious comments. I hereby apologize to any and all who were offended.

I do not hide or spoof my identity, BTW; I consider the facts, evidence and ideas I present relevant here, not my personal bio. As for taking shots, seems to me that opening salvo was that of calling unorthodox (for now) hives and management styles /excrement/.

Quote
...I have used sawdust, newspaper, obsorbent particle board and even grass, in playing around with ways to control or minmize moisture issues. Now, I have never claimed to use a "quilt", and never made a quilt as per Warre protocol. I'll see what I can do about a picture when the snow melts. But you act as if nobody has ever tried these things before, and use the excuse that since there are no commercial models being sold, you have the right to assume nobody ever did anything close to what Warre called for. Wrong....

Yes, but I rely on evidence, the more recent and scientifically obtained, reviewed, and reproducible, the better, to inform my views and actions. Commercial mags like ABJ provide up-to-date ads and articles/tutorials about standard equipment and practice; those, and latest the ABC & XYZ edition do not mention quilts or vTBHs like Warrés despite their long use... just not in the USA I guess, but that is changing rapidly lately (I have four 3-box Warrés waiting for the spring).

I've found no evidence, and I've looked far & wide, that "quilts" have ever made it into long-term usage in the framed-hive milieu, hence my incredulity at the initial claim that "The whole quilt thing is but yet another way, that has been used over the years..." I just can't find the evidence -- please provide if I've overlooked something.

And I'll restate that a solution to the moisture problem was presented a century and a half ago, yet was evidently never widely adopted; was it incompatible with framed equipment, Langstroth-style management philosophy, or both? Dunno...

Quote
Three, Please provide a list of the 12 parasites and diseases that the Warre hive is completely immune from? Better yet, as you mentioned, list the ones that are encouraged by the use of frames?

Anecdotal evidence from regions where unframed hives, more specifically Warré types, are deployed suggests a 90% lower varroa loading in Warrés compared to Nationals or Langstroth hives, all else equal. The no-URL restriction on this forum for newbees prohibits me from posting links or even trying to get around the ban. Many of the sites are in German and French, and foreign-language forums don't necessarily show up in standard searches.

Again, I look for evidence that is suggestive and consistent. Demands for "proof" and completely incontrovertible evidence fall into the straw man fallacy and are naturally unanswerable.

Quote
...I do not feel anyone is a sadist if they open a hive beyond what Warre called for. I would not even call a fellow beekeeper a sadist for those that use chemicals that I so adamantly comment on...

Okay, so I regretfully chose the wrong word; my bad. Sadists are aware they cause pain and trauma & obtain pleasure from it. Conventional beeks OTOH may merely be unaware that frequent hive opening is quite stressful and has long-lasting negative impacts on the colony.

Then again they might even be somewhat aware, and I'll own that many orthodox beeks do try to minimize chilling & outgassing damage by choosing the best time of day & weather. Warrés are superior in this respect, with no special care having to be taken by the beek due to the construction of the hive itself, and to the different management protocol it demands.

But if there be another means of obtaining intelligence, like being queenright, such a low-impact method that does not rely on total hive opening can find a place in an updated managament style. A Warré beek in principle may never see the queen, nor care to. Langstroth-epoch frames and management facilitate, no, demand or make inevitable regular hive opening, comb-swapping, and all the rest.

In keeping bees, there are obviously other ways (i.e., they exist); perhaps they are better, have something to learn from, and are deserving of attention, not summary dismissal, is all I'm saying.



I'll ask readers and the Moderator to please note that I have presented my arguments and mild defenses in non-accusatory, non-confrontational phraseology. If, despite my contrition and toned-down presentation of ideas and challenges, what I write still be somehow inconsistent with the Forum bylaws, or worse, unpalatable to those of greater standing who hold more conventional views, then fine, I'll accept banishment and bow out.
Logged

---------------
“Never ask who's right. Start out by asking what is right. And you find that out by listening to dissenting, disagreeing opinions.” — Peter Drucker
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2008, 09:14:24 PM »

atemp2,
Ok, first it was stated as clear as cast in concrete that 12 disease, parasites and/or disease are seen with using framed hives. That apparently Warre hives were immune to them.

Now the conversation takes a quick "stage left" when asked to list them. I figured as much. You didn't need to use the excuse that it was "anecdotal" or that some list is magically hidden and unobtainable since there is some language barrier or the fact that you can not post a link.

I figured as much. This is where it normally goes. Just thought I would play along.

Figuring you have ample time to post lengthy posts, I see no reason that typing out 12 tiny disease and parasites that you now have mentioned, is too much to ask.

When you can not list a few disease and parasites, then it also throws into question about everything else you say. But that's just my opinion.

So your telling me, just to be clear....that there is no way you can list the 12 parasite/disease issues you reference? Unbelievable.
____________________________________________

MB, I hear what your saying. And we can always discuss the benefits or advantages of one or the other way of supering. I actually agree and understand many of the points that Warre made. I think they are great items to discuss. But it's this same old "do this" and "every bee problem known to exist will be eliminated" that seems to never end. And it further irritates me when asking for some basic information, from the people who are so quick to condemn others, and those questions are not clearly answered, beyond excuses.

I am more interesting in discussing these fantastic claims of no disease or parasites, based on a colony occupying a Warre hive. Or better yet, that frames encourage at least 12 disease and parasites that are not seen with a Warre hive.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 07:01:48 AM by BjornBee » Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2008, 09:21:11 PM »

Inner covers are still called "quilt boards" many places and cloth quilts were in common usage as inner covers from at least the 1800's that I can find.  Try looking at those books on Cornell's web site:

http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=bees;idno=5017286

I'm sure there is a mention in some of them of quilts.  I know it's in some of the old books I have around here.  I've seen pictures of them posted on some of the forums in the past by people still using them in Langstroth hives.  I've been using cloth inner covers on mating nucs for several years. Michael Palmer uses them as well.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.655 seconds with 22 queries.

Google visited last this page April 19, 2014, 02:21:05 AM