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Author Topic: Bee ID  (Read 3577 times)
ArmucheeBee
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« on: October 13, 2008, 06:57:16 PM »

Here are some pics of a queen I captured in a swarm at my house on Sep. 23.  My other queens are golden in color but this one is particularly black and so are many of the workers.  They have already draw two PF frames and one is full of honey, yes I am feeding.  Brood is already capped too.  They are going gang-busters.  So does this look like any varieties of queens you know of or is she a possible feral?  I had suspicions of ferals this August while watching bees fly off a feeding station in the direction of our woods-opposite to the hives.  We own about 30 acres of 60+ year old hardwoods, so there are plenty of cavities.  I did find out their is another beek about 1 mile from me, but in the opposite direction of the woods!  He's a recluse and does not talk to anyone so I have no idea what he is raising!



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Stephen Stewart
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Shawn
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2008, 07:23:37 PM »

Did you paint the queen? If not does the beek in your area use that kind of paint?
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ArmucheeBee
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 09:13:07 PM »

Dude, of course I painted the queen.  I would not ask if it might be a feral queen if she came to me painted.  Are you messing with me?
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Stephen Stewart
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johnnybigfish
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 09:29:54 PM »

 grin grin grin grin
Sorry, but I was wondering the same thing about the painted queen. I was first thinking that since she was painted you must have really gotten a good one!

your friend,
john
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sc-bee
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 09:42:47 PM »

Did you paint the queen DUDE  grin Wink!
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rdy-b
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2008, 09:44:26 PM »

she is a Italian hybrid cross got some carni in her -and from the looks of the progeny id say she mated with a italian-RDY-B
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ArmucheeBee
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2008, 10:16:18 PM »

You California guys are all crazy! afro
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Stephen Stewart
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rdy-b
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2008, 10:23:41 PM »

 grin RDY-B
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 06:36:42 AM »

Actually I'd call that one striped or tiger striped.  I have some that from the top are quite black, some that are tiger striped and some that are mostly yellow.  It seems typical of the feral survivors I've been finding.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BlackQueen.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BlackBees.jpg
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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ArmucheeBee
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2008, 07:47:50 AM »

Thank you MB for that dignified reply rolleyes.  You other wiseguys should take note!!   A painted feral--indeed!!!  Although I did tell my grandmother that queens come out of the cell with that blue, she thought that was really cool.

I had heard from others that ferals were black or darker.   Do hybrids revert back to a feral color if left to raise there own queens over several generations?   Domestic pigs will revert back to a "boar" type hog after about 10 generations in the wild.  If that's not cool I don't what is!
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Stephen Stewart
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Keith13
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2008, 10:48:05 AM »

Did you paint the queen? If not does the beek in your area use that kind of paint?

Best question ever on the forums grin grin grin grin grin

Keith
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Shawn
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 01:45:59 PM »

Sorry dude that was just the first thing that came to me when I saw the picture. I was not trying to be a smartie.
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ArmucheeBee
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 02:42:53 PM »

I know.  I thought it was funny.  I like bustin' chops.  evil
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Stephen Stewart
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2008, 07:10:30 PM »

 Interesting, besides being funny. I went over and bought a queen Sat. I was asked if I wanted yellow or black. Told him I didn't care as long as it would lay. On the way home I thought I should have have asked him what was the difference. Of course he could have said "Dude, two different colors"
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2008, 07:16:54 PM »

>I had heard from others that ferals were black or darker. 

The ferals here have gotten darker in recent years.  Back before the tracheal mites and the Varroa mites they were more leather colored and Italian looking around here.
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Michael Bush
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2008, 07:45:30 PM »

>I had heard from others that ferals were black or darker. 

The ferals here have gotten darker in recent years.  Back before the tracheal mites and the Varroa mites they were more leather colored and Italian looking around here.


I've noticed the same thing, I think the varroa resistance gene is tied to the darker color trait.  That would help explain why Russians and Carnies have a better natural resistance than Italians.
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ArmucheeBee
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2008, 09:21:35 PM »

Now this is coming from the biologist in me:  so if we want colonies that are more resistant to these pests, it seems we should let natural selection (nature) take its logical course and allow our colonies to raise their own queens.  Sounds like I should not be buying anymore queens.  Just take my best colony, take out a frame, nuc it and allow the workers to make a queen from that???  Now I know that is what most breeders do, but it would be more fun for me to do it myself and save some dough!  The speed with which this queen and small colony drew out two frames and brood and made stores during a dearth is quite amazing to me.  So I'm thinking I want more of the same.  Ya'll thought this was some bogus thread--two pages already!!!
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Stephen Stewart
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rdy-b
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2008, 10:01:07 PM »

> So I'm thinking I want more of the same.< 
there is one concern you might want to think about -swarming is not something that helps the beekeeper -only the bee benifits from this trait- RDY-B
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2008, 08:24:02 PM »

> So I'm thinking I want more of the same.< 
there is one concern you might want to think about -swarming is not something that helps the beekeeper -only the bee benifits from this trait- RDY-B

A trait that can be used to advantage by the beekeeper.  Swarming also helps the beekeeper as it can replace died out hives.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2008, 10:03:58 PM »

> So I'm thinking I want more of the same.< 
there is one concern you might want to think about -swarming is not something that helps the beekeeper -only the bee benifits from this trait- RDY-B

A trait that can be used to advantage by the beekeeper.  Swarming also helps the beekeeper as it can replace died out hives.
  ARE those swarms or is that your honey crop flying away -swarms comeing in are very cool yes-swarms flying out not so cool -best increase method is splits from good stock -RDY-B
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Captadamr
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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2008, 11:18:24 PM »

Can there be both dark workers and the more yellow workers from the same hive? When I was washing the car today I noticed a bee (reg yellow) landing on the roof, within about 5 mins there were around 10 bees on the driveway lapping up water. I noticed that there were some dark bees, rather dark actually with little yellow, and then some good ole yellow bees. I must have some feral hives close by for those bees to appear so quickly, there is about an acre lot starting around 1000ft from my car, i will go on a hunt to see if i can see if the hives are there, maybe they are in an area that I can catch them, and depending on temperment re-queen them. I just found it strange to have the 2 diffrent colored bees arriving at the same time.

How far would scouts bees go to find water? My pool is only 100ft from my car and i see very few bees there.
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bmacior
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2008, 09:32:41 AM »

 A queen mates with many drones so sisters with different fathers will have different genetic make ups, of which color is one difference.  Multiple sperm lines may confer more variation in traits to the queen's offspring; providing bees that perform better at some tasks than others within a single hive.  This genetic diversity not only helps the productivity needed to maintain large complex colonies; but also benefits the health of the hive as a whole, as genetic diversity also boosts the colony's resistance against disease.

http://www.westmtnapiary.com/bee_genealogy.html
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2008, 08:11:11 PM »

>Now this is coming from the biologist in me:  so if we want colonies that are more resistant to these pests, it seems we should let natural selection (nature) take its logical course and allow our colonies to raise their own queens.

I THINK HE'S GOT IT!!!!

>  Sounds like I should not be buying anymore queens.

BY GEORGE HE'S GOT IT!!!!

> Just take my best colony, take out a frame, nuc it and allow the workers to make a queen from that???

HE'S REALLY GOT IT!!!

> Now I know that is what most breeders do, but it would be more fun for me to do it myself and save some dough!

Why rear your own queens?

Cost. A typical queen costs about $20 counting shipping and may cost considerably more.

Time. In an emergency you order a queen and it takes several days to make arrangements and get the queen. Often you need a queen yesterday. If you have some in mating nucs, on hand, then you already have a queen.

Availability. Often when you need a queen there are none available from suppliers. Again, if you have one on hand availability is not a problem.

AHB. Southern raised queens are more and more from Africanized Honey Bee areas. In order to keep AHB out of the North we should stop importing queens from those areas.

Acclimatized bees. It's unreasonable to expect bees bred in the deep South to winter well in the far North. Local feral stock is acclimatized to our local climate. Even breeding from commercial stock, you can breed from the ones that winter well here.

Mite and disease resistance. Tracheal mite resistance is an easy trait to breed for. Just don't treat and you'll get resistant bees. Hygienic behavior, which is helpful to avoid AFB (American Foulbrood) and other brood diseases as well as Varroa mite problems, is also easy to breed for by testing for hygienic behavior in our breeder queens. And yet hardly any queen breeders are breeding for these traits. The genetics of our queens if far too important to be left to people who don't have a stake in their success. People selling queens and bees actually make more money selling replacement queens and bees when the bees fail.

Quality. The quality of your queens can often surpass that of a queen breeder. You have the time to spend to do things that a commercial breeder cannot afford to do. For instance, research has shown that a queen that is allowed to lay up until it's 21 days will be a better queen with better developed ovarioles than one that is banked sooner. A longer wait will help even more, but that first 21 days is much more critical. A commercial queen producer typically looks for eggs at two weeks and if there are any it is banked and eventually shipped. You can let yours develop better by spending more time.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm

> The speed with which this queen and small colony drew out two frames and brood and made stores during a dearth is quite amazing to me.  So I'm thinking I want more of the same.  Ya'll thought this was some bogus thread--two pages already!!!

“If you're not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-tolerant bees, then you're part of the problem”--Randy Oliver
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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bailey
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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2008, 10:12:28 PM »

here in south Louisiana the feral queens that i am finding are frequently very dark.  i don't have any store bought queens and really don't plan on ever buying any.   with the skills taught to me by JP i really have done well.  i have gone from 2 hives last year at this time to over 30 now.   all wild caught.
i have lost 3 hives to swarming then attack by hive beetles and wax moths.

 i figure that if they don't make it without all the treatments for mites and other nasties then i didn't want those genes anyway!

the other hives are doing quite well.

my point is that i want the local tough bees in my apiary and those come from wild swarms and cutouts.
the also happen to be darker than the Italians and even the Russians that my father in law has.

the local bees also seem much smaller and most are quite gentle.

Bailey
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.
chemlight
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« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2008, 06:20:00 AM »

Dang, you lucky dog. What you just walk outside and find it or do you have something set up for swarms?

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bailey
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2008, 07:54:28 PM »

sometimes it seems like all i have to do is walk outside and instant swarm!
we have had over 10 just decide to come to us this summer. that isnt counting the swarm calls i get or the cutouts i do for people.

we dont have a shortage of bees in southeast louisiana!

i just brought home a large cutout that i finished today.  have 5 others waiting on me when i choose to do them.

mo bees mo bees mo bees
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.
ArmucheeBee
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2008, 08:04:17 PM »

bailey

since ya'll have such large numbers of bees, are you seeing any AHB there or is anyone else in your state?   sounds like I know who to get some wild bees from if i feel like driving about 8 hours!!!    this is for everyone else:  is anyone keeping the AHB on purpose in the US?  i have just started beeking so I don't know the implications of keeping them, although I do know their history.  and is there a program to breed AHB back to calmer strains?
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Stephen Stewart
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bmacior
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2008, 10:38:02 PM »

I don't know for sure, but I think Dee Lusby in AZ has AHB on purpose.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  The AHB is the preferred honey bee in South America.  They are working to breed a gentler AHB in Mexico with the resulting bee making 20% more honey and being 50% calmer.  And I think I read somewhere recently, they are also working on it in the US, but I don't remember where. 
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2008, 07:40:07 AM »

>I don't know for sure, but I think Dee Lusby in AZ has AHB on purpose.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Dee has been raising bees in Arizona for some time (and everywhere else along the way) and says the bees look the same as they always did.  She doesn't believe there is such a thing as AHB.

I've been in her yards.  Some are hotter than I like.  Some are fine.  I would breed them a little nicer if it was me.  She seems unfazed by them being in the air head butting.  I've had MUCH worse bees here when buying queens from Texas.
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Michael Bush
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bailey
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2008, 05:35:36 PM »

i only know of 2 Africanized bee hives found in Louisiana. there may be more but the bees i am geeting have been very gentle.  i have gotten one swarm from JP that was a little hot but they are still OK. the ones in lafourche parish have almost all been very gentle.
Bailey
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.
Keith13
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« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2008, 06:37:01 PM »

here in south Louisiana the feral queens that i am finding are frequently very dark.  i don't have any store bought queens and really don't plan on ever buying any.   with the skills taught to me by JP i really have done well.  i have gone from 2 hives last year at this time to over 30 now.   all wild caught.
i have lost 3 hives to swarming then attack by hive beetles and wax moths.

 i figure that if they don't make it without all the treatments for mites and other nasties then i didn't want those genes anyway!

the other hives are doing quite well.

my point is that i want the local tough bees in my apiary and those come from wild swarms and cutouts.
the also happen to be darker than the Italians and even the Russians that my father in law has.

the local bees also seem much smaller and most are quite gentle.

Bailey

Exact same attitude I have toward beekeeping to a T cheesy

Keith
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bailey
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« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2008, 07:21:28 PM »

well here is an update on the swarm count here in my back yard.

walked out back to look at the newest cutout hive i have, they were looking fine.
i looked over at one of my purple martin poles and there sat a basketball sized swarm!

shook them into one of jp's high tech swarm catching boxes and then went through the swarm and caged the queen. 
hung her in a medium box of drawn comb and watched the swarm march into the new hive!

like i said i just walk out back and instant swarm!
Bailey
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.
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