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Author Topic: For those who think treating with sugar is "Non-Chemical"  (Read 29851 times)
Michael Bush
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« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2010, 08:56:56 PM »

I've been feeding cane and beet sugar to bees for 36 years and see no difference.  The bees don't seem to see one either.  Now unrefined or partially refined it may make a lot of difference for all I know, but pure white sugar doesn't seem to matter.
http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/supplemental-feeding-of-honey-bee-colonies/
http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/considerations-in-selecting-sugars-for-feeding-to-honey-bees/
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#kindofsugar

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Michael Bush
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David McLeod
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« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2010, 10:52:02 AM »

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Is that just an excuse for us intervening into their world for our benefit?  In most cases everything in nature has a beter chance of survival without man.  Man is the most distructive species on earth.  I can't think of one problem that exist in the world that wasn't caused by man himself.

Wow, I haven't seen a statement more full of self loathing than this. If this really is the case then the answer is obvious. Or is only the enlightened pantheists get to decide how to apply that answer. I can't believe the twisted logic and mentality of some people.
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Acebird
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« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2010, 02:22:09 PM »

With Monsanto trying to make the backyard garden illegal


huh?


sorry it took awhile.

http://www.ufo-blogger.com/2010/08/us-senate-bill-s510-allows-raiding-your.html
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2010, 03:04:53 PM »


I searched it after you mentioned it (sorry to stray off topic - I'll make it up) I havent seen the final final result of this bill, but if it is what the blogs are saying it's unconstitutional.
- No I guess I won't actually do that much to go back on topic - sugar is a chemical (compound) - but so is honey - I guess then it boils down to who it's good for and who the chemist is.
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T Beek
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« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2010, 02:29:04 PM »

Hang in there Acebird, you've got plenty of company around here. 

Remember; flies will land on dung as likely as they'll land on pie.

This is a great posting, glad it got re-awakened.

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2010, 03:28:21 PM »

unfortunately for the education of the public, the whole  Monsanto thing is a red herring.  it is the goal of "progressives" to have government control.  we have an excellent example of the goal in Venezuela.  if you look at what Chavez has done and look at what our government is doing, the behaviors are the same.  our government has just been a Little more subtle about it and has not been able to implement changes to the same degree.  there is a reason the Chavez is openly embraced by so many on the far left.  he is doing quickly what they are forced to do slowly.

do not be distracted by the Monsanto argument.  it is the government which sets and implements the policy.  our government is doing the same through agencies like FCC, FDA, EPA etc.  they operate even outside the controls that a more conservative congress could apply.  they are unaccountable and unstoppable as long as they have the backing of the leadership.,\
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2010, 03:54:48 PM »

In RE: per kathyP opinion; "it is the goal of "progressives" to have government control." 

Perhaps as a balance to the corporate control we have now. 

May the ghost of Bob LaFolette be with you.

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2010, 04:12:54 PM »

sorry, no.  it is their goal to have big government and control.  that does not mean that they will not co-opt corporations toward their goal...

you really need to pay more attention.  the "big corporation" argument is their excuse, and in fact a long used Marxist excuse, for government control.
many people like you, have bought the argument and the whole class warfare thing.  it is what gives government the leeway to do as they  now do.

you should go back and read all of the speeches and papers that preceded each communist revolution, and even the French revolution. the French revolution is often compared to ours, only having gone wrong.  it really was not.  it was a class warfare revolution and written in modern language, some of the arguments for it were very Karl Marx.  read what Chavez said before he was "elected".  you are just parroting what was said.  time to do your own research.

in a capitalist/market economy, which we really no longer have, the corporation is controlled by the market.  you don't like something, you don't buy it or invest in it, and it ceases to exist.  in our current system, the corporation is regulated and supported by the government.  you don't like the corporation, you don't' buy or invest, and the government steps in and supports. (GM, airlines, etc.) the government, not the consumer, chooses who lives and dies.
the government and the corporation become one.  the government controls.  same thing is happening with farm subsidies, especially the ethanol crap.
the  corporation in a market based economy is not evil.  if it produces a good product, it does well and hires people and  pays taxes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1729156220101217
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2010, 04:51:13 PM »

Sorry kathyP, but your kinda sounding like Glenn Beck, he likes to self-pro-claim his opinions as "the word" cherry-picking and distorting history to fit into his own point of view too.

Its very important to listen to all sides on these issues.  Why is that so hard for so many?  I have my theories. Just labeling people as this or that is a disconnect and serves no purpose but division (and who does that serve? One guess)

Simply belittling others is easy when you're not facing them and has the oposite effect of inviting debate (the bully's usually win) something that already happens way too much around this forum.

thomas
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Acebird
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« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2010, 04:59:39 PM »

Quote
in our current system, the corporation is regulated and supported by the government.  you don't like the corporation, you don't' buy or invest, and the government steps in and supports. (GM, airlines, etc.) the government, not the consumer, chooses who lives and dies.

Oh boy ... angry

There are two ways to get back to a pure capitalistic system.  Stop the influence of the corporation on our government or by revolution (change the government in an extreme way).  Nobody wants the latter because of the hardships that will be endured.  But the threat may be all that is needed.

Raise your own bees and grow your own food and Monsanto can stick it.  Trust me this scares the heck out of them no matter how much support they get from the government.
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T Beek
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« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2010, 05:02:19 PM »

ditto to that.  Now, can we get back to topic? grin

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2010, 05:04:11 PM »

true acebird.  self sufficiency negates much control....no matter where it comes from

T Beek, i have no idea why you would feel like you were being belittled, but when i hear "big corporation" as an explanation of what is happening, i  know that you have either embraced the class warfare of Marxism, or you have not studied your history.  if you prefer Marxist ideology, fair enough.  if you have not educated yourself, there is no excuse.

if my suggestion bothers you, ignore it.  if you feel i am a bully toward you, block me.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2010, 05:17:54 PM »

kathyP says; "if you have not educated yourself there's no excuse."

Tell me how that's not offensive, condescending and nothing but a your own pre-concieved notion/opinion expressed because you happen to disagree with someone elses viewpoint?

Is it why you're on this thread?  You don't seem to agree with many of the concepts of Natural Beekeeping as shown by your posts.

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2010, 06:24:30 PM »

Not so.  I pretty much practice it.  I don’t embrace it as a religion.   Some seem to and attack those who don’t.
And I say...if you have not bothered to study history there is no excuse.  As I also said if you embrace marxism...fair enough.  This is not a judgement on your position. You have not said whether y
you are a follower of marks.
I can not own what you choose to let offend you.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2010, 05:09:41 AM »

More assumptions and degrading from you rolleyes.  You may "pretty much practice" it but your also pretty quick to disclaim the same (see your posts on this thread).  Do you read what you say to some people?  Particularly those you "assume" are marxists or haven't studied history. 

WHo made you the marxist hunter anyway?  Would you say what you have if you were sitting in front of them/us/me?  That should be the question before the send button is pushed (by anyone).

We're all people out here kathyp and we all deserve respect even if we don't have 9k posts.  Opinion differences are just that.

Just because something is read, said or believed (by you or anyone else) doesnt always make it true. And don't you think self-rhightousness is really kinda thick?

thomas
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Acebird
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« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2010, 08:54:29 AM »

Does it really matter if you read your history anyway?  It gets repeated over and over again so why bother reading it.  To me it is a waste of time.

All I know is organic practices will increase the quality of life in the long run and inorganic practices will not.  We just watched a movie last night  "dirt, the movie".  It is not a big seller because it is a documentary.  However if you are in to history this is one case that has been repeated but on a much larger scale.

If you take the time to research you cannot deny what is happening.  Whether sugar is a chemical or not it is not a natural food for bees because of the way it is delivered.
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T Beek
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« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2010, 09:09:55 AM »

Excellent doc is "dirt"  another is "Flow" (about the planets dwindling water supplies and how water rights are being bought up by the wealthy in some of the poorest countries) or "gasland" or "blue gold" (another one about water).

History is one thing but serving up ideology disguised as history and then calling any other viewpoint wrong is simply rude.
These forums work best when they invite debate and thoughtful opinion, not shut it down.

thomas

PS; Ruth Stout; an advocate for working smart, not hard, bless her heart.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2010, 06:14:18 PM »

Is that just an excuse for us intervening into their world for our benefit?  In most cases everything in nature has a beter chance of survival without man.  Man is the most distructive species on earth.  I can't think of one problem that exist in the world that wasn't caused by man himself.
How about death?

Perhaps "man" causes a lot of problems, but not all of them. As for being a "husband" as in husbandry, if we have animals I believe we are duty bound to do our best to care for them. My chickens that are inside for winter need me to feed and water them, to clean their barn room--that's not an excuse to intervene. It's just reality.

As for bees, the very act of being a beekeeper has put you into the "intervention" category. If you believe bees survive best in nature, let them be. In fact, it's rather unnatural for us in North America to have honeybees at all, as I do not believe they are native here. But, this may just be arguing. There's obviously quite a continuum of hands on and hands offness for having bees.
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Acebird
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« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2010, 06:45:24 PM »

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How about death?


If it weren't for Eve giving Adam that bad apple man would have lived forever.  Wink
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Rosalind
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« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2011, 05:41:04 PM »


Isn't that the whole principle behind evolution?  The ones with better grip survive and mate with other "better grippers" and after a few generations we only have mites with kung-fu grip (Sorry couldn't help reverting back to my childhood with GI Joe...)

Quote
I think that take longer than becoming resistant to chems.
Why?



I know this is an older post, but I certainly think that it takes longer to develop resistance to physical removal than chemical resistance. That has been the case with viruses, bacteria, protozoans and other insects, as well as cancer cells, so I see no reason that Varroa mites would be very different. The receptors to which the chemicals bind require very few mutations to change shape sufficiently to become resistant; in many cases, a pumping mechanism is adapted from other efflux pump gene replicates that is capable of pumping out many toxic chemicals. However, the mutations required to modify appendages and skeletal formation are fairly rare--additional "fingers" requires modification of genes whose function is critical to the organism, so critters with mutations in those genes don't often live to reproduce. Thicker chitin would also mean poorer oxygen diffusion through longer spiracles, and suffocate the critter, so they aren't apt to grow a thicker hide, which is why diatomaceous earth is still a good broad-spectrum insecticide (I use it in my barn, well away from bees).

Receptor chemistry is actually quite flexible. In the olden days (OK, when I was an undergrad...), biochemistry students learned that it was all locks and keys and everything had to fit perfectly, but now we know that is definitely not the case, that receptors are very floppy indeed, and most all the dreaded Chemicals work by a receptor-ligand-antagonist type of arrangement that is dead easy to work around in a few generations.
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