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Author Topic: For those who think treating with sugar is "Non-Chemical"  (Read 29071 times)
luvin honey
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« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2010, 11:28:45 PM »

So for those who  have real tight thing on chemicals, I would say find another hobby, side line or what not.
Huh? And here I thought this forum had a pile of beeks not using "chemicals."

I think we all understand that the world is full of junk. I still love being a beekeeper! I know the girls can bring in crap from anywhere, but I feel good to not be adding to the load of chemicals in the hive.

'Sides, if more and more beeks don't treat, and more and more farmers don't spray, the world starts getting cleaned up 1 tiny bit at a time. It's working so far in my life Smiley
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Tucker1
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« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2010, 11:13:27 AM »

I just wanted to say thanks for the well written posting, as well as the followup comments and remarks. They certainly give pause for thought. Right now, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how to best utilize the information provided. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and beliefs. Time for a little pondering...

Regards,
Tucker1
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Jim 134
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« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2010, 09:31:32 PM »


Huh? And here I thought this forum had a pile of beeks not using "chemicals."


 Don't think you may hurt your head LOL




  BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley
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kbfarms
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« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2010, 08:16:27 PM »

When I have to feed, I ensure that I feed sugar cane sugar, not beet sugar, just my personal preference.  Has any testing been performed on the sugar cane sugar? 
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woodchopper
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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2010, 04:49:44 PM »

When I have to feed, I ensure that I feed sugar cane sugar, not beet sugar, just my personal preference.  Has any testing been performed on the sugar cane sugar ??
I was wondering when someone was going to ask this. grin Too many variables to say everyone does the following the same"
 1} Same kind of sugar. Not all sugar is refined the same or the same type. I wonder if there is a difference between cane and beet sugar?
 2] Length of feeding. I fed for 2 1/2 weeks this Spring. Please don't lump me in with the beeks who feed for 2 months.
 3] Different dusting methods. I dust from the bottom with a bellows duster only on hot days and I leave my slatted racks in place. I use organic cane sugar ground up in a blender. Because of the slatted racks only a small percentage of sugar dust makes it up to the top 2/3's of the brood chamber. Don't lump me with the beeks who remove all the honey supers and apply the sugar to the top bars. Not saying my way is better than anyone else but clearly we all do things a little differently. If you change two,three,or four variables in an equation is it unreasonable to think you might get a different answer ?
 I wonder why this study didn't include sugar cane to see if it was just as bad ?
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harvey
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« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2010, 05:50:42 PM »

Do to this posting and others, I decided this year to not feed at all,  I don't want the bees to starve however I am trying foundationless frames, (So far so good) so not feeding and possibly not contaminating would go hand in hand?  Maybe I will also end up with healthier bees?  This is just my penny,  I don't have the expierence yet to give you two cents worth.  I realize others with much more experience have probably already gone down this road and I agree finding a happy medium somewhere is the right thing,  I continuously learn from all of you here but am trying very hard to create a hive I can sell to Bjorn for 50000 dollars!     
    I can say that by not feeding the bees I have hived this year, swarms from the woods, not others hives, are not building up as fast or drawing as much comb as I thought they would.  They all are drawing nice white comb.  They have good brood patterns and I have not seen any issues with mites yet.  I believe due to them all being first year hives.  I know that I could have had a lot more comb by now if I had fed and probably would see much more in surplus honey.  I am opting this year to just get through the winter with what hives will.  If I get surplus honey great though as it is the reason I have wanted bees to begin with.
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woodchopper
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« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2010, 08:07:19 PM »

When I have to feed, I ensure that I feed sugar cane sugar, not beet sugar, just my personal preference.  Has any testing been performed on the sugar cane sugar? 
Can anyone here answer kbfarms question ?
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woodchopper
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« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2010, 08:23:07 PM »



3. sugar (feeding or dusting) has some real implications.  first of all, as michael bush has pointed out many times, the ph of sugar is more conducive to growing AFB and many other diseases than that of honey.  secondly, some of the research out of sweden has recently shown that feeding sugar over the winter kills 4 novel (occuring no where else on the planet) strains of bacillus that live in the honeystomach of the honeybee, and doubtless have all manner of other effects on the thousands and thousands of strains of microbes that live in the hive, and make it a hospitable environment for honeybees.

i repeat my request for volunteers.  if you think your sugar feed doesn't get into your honey, why shouldn't feed syrup be dyed with food coloring to make sure?

deknow
Did the Swedish scientist use only sugar from sugar beets or sugar cane as well ? I also wonder if the sugar sold in American comes from different countries than the sugar sold in Sweden ?
 I live in the So. Shore of Boston and I'll be a volunteer for you. I'll willingly dye my sugar feed in one of my hives and let you take pictures or inspect that hive 3 or 4 weeks after I feed and again right before I pull my honey supers.
 I only fed a few quarts to my new packages this year so I probably don't feed enough to qualify as a potential volunteer. Let me know what you think though.
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caticind
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« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2010, 03:15:38 PM »

Did the Swedish scientist use only sugar from sugar beets or sugar cane as well ? I also wonder if the sugar sold in American comes from different countries than the sugar sold in Sweden?

I lived in Sweden for a few years, so I can answer.  The sugar supply in Sweden is mostly derived from sugar beets, whereas in the US it usually comes from sugar cane.  So no, the odds are good this test did not address differences between Swedish sugar and American sugar.
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woodchopper
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« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2010, 05:25:13 PM »

Did the Swedish scientist use only sugar from sugar beets or sugar cane as well ? I also wonder if the sugar sold in American comes from different countries than the sugar sold in Sweden?

I lived in Sweden for a few years, so I can answer.  The sugar supply in Sweden is mostly derived from sugar beets, whereas in the US it usually comes from sugar cane.  So no, the odds are good this test did not address differences between Swedish sugar and American sugar.
Thanks for the clarification. I figured that was the case but wondered why anyone would use the Swedish study to condemn ALL treating or feeding with sugar when the study obviously only used sugar from sugar beets. 
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deknow
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« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2010, 08:38:59 PM »

as far as i know, regardless of source (cane or beet), refined sugar is (the "chemical") sucrose.  certainly cane sugar and beet sugar are more simlar to one another than either one is to honey.

the best i can tell, either sugar is 99.9% sucrose...a gallon of water (8lbs) that is 99.9% pure contains about .13oz of "impurity".

so, is there better data to describe the difference?  what is in the 0.02oz/lb impurity that makes a difference?  about 1/2gram per lb?

deknow
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woodchopper
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« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2010, 09:28:59 PM »

as far as i know, regardless of source (cane or beet), refined sugar is (the "chemical") sucrose.  certainly cane sugar and beet sugar are more simlar to one another than either one is to honey.

the best i can tell, either sugar is 99.9% sucrose...a gallon of water (8lbs) that is 99.9% pure contains about .13oz of "impurity".

so, is there better data to describe the difference?  what is in the 0.02oz/lb impurity that makes a difference?  about 1/2gram per lb?

deknow
Yes they are very similar but without question not the same. Beet and cane sugar grown in different countries are subject to different growing techniques [pesticides] and refining processes. Sugar from one side of the world very well might have differences in the .13oz of" impurity" you speak of. 
 The Swedish study would have giving themselves better creditability with the US beeks that worry about this had they tested both kinds of sugars to rule out any questions.
 I personally worry more about the person down the street using Round Up on their driveway than the tiny amount of sugar I feed my girls each year. Your mileage may vary.
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Acebird
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« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2010, 02:28:57 PM »

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Due to all the controversy over treating for varroas and feeding sugar syrup, wouldn't it make more sense to let the bees dependent on these methods for survival just die off and retain the bees that are hardy and mite resistant.  I know this would take some time and one would suffer losses, but wouldn't it be worth the effort in the long run if one were wanting to go all natural in their beekeeping efforts? 

Bingo! Obviously not for the commercial bee keeper but for us this is the attitude we have adopted.  We got bees to pollinate our gardens which for the most part should not have many toxins present.  At least that is what we are hoping.  With Monsanto trying to make the backyard garden illegal it is virtually impossible to raise organic bees without netting a 2 mile radius farm and controlling what enters.  But if you leave nature to nature survival of the fittest should prevail.  I think efforts should be made on explaining why mites and disease have become such a problem today.  What has man done to cause the problem and then how can we get man to stop doing it?
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kathyp
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« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2010, 03:27:12 PM »

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why mites and disease have become such a problem today.  What has man done to cause the problem and then how can we get man to stop doing it?

why do you assume that man has cause this?  disease and parasite exist in nature apart from man.  nature is a cruel thing.  death and disease and constant.

now...i do think that saving those of a species that are weak and breeding that weakness in, is not good.  on the other hand, when we choose to keep a thing, we have responsibility to care for that thing.  i do not think it is an all or nothing proposition.  it is a matter of common sense.

if you do not want to care for what you keep, leave in nature and nature will determine it's survival.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2010, 08:41:45 AM »

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why mites and disease have become such a problem today.  What has man done to cause the problem and then how can we get man to stop doing it?

why do you assume that man has cause this?  disease and parasite exist in nature apart from man.  nature is a cruel thing.  death and disease and constant.

now...i do think that saving those of a species that are weak and breeding that weakness in, is not good.  on the other hand, when we choose to keep a thing, we have responsibility to care for that thing.  i do not think it is an all or nothing proposition.  it is a matter of common sense.

if you do not want to care for what you keep, leave in nature and nature will determine it's survival.

"we have responsibility  to care for that thing"

Is that just an excuse for us intervening into their world for our benefit?  In most cases everything in nature has a beter chance of survival without man.  Man is the most distructive species on earth.  I can't think of one problem that exist in the world that wasn't caused by man himself.




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kathyp
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« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2010, 08:58:01 AM »

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Is that just an excuse for us intervening into their world for our benefit?  In most cases everything in nature has a beter chance of survival without man.  Man is the most distructive species on earth.  I can't think of one problem that exist in the world that wasn't caused by man himself.

that's quite an accomplishment.  you managed to make a statement that is entirely false. 
since we are in a beekeeping section, i'll stick to the beekeeping portion of your statement.

Quote
Is that just an excuse for us intervening into their world for our benefit?

yes.  assuming you believe your above statement, you should not be keeping bees.  it would not be for their benefit.  since you choose to keep them, it must be for your benefit.  if this is true, you are responsible for caring for them.

it is the same with anything we have.  dogs, cats, horses.  i happen to have horses.  if they were in the wild, they would not be immunized, have their feet tended to, or be wormed.  because i keep them, i care for them.  because i care for them, they have every chance of living into their late 20's or early 30's with good health.  that would be a very rare thing in the wild. 

would you apply to evil man the same "survival of the fittest" theory that you apply to your livestock?  that we should not feed, provide clean water, immunize, etc. those who are in need?  we could seriously reduce evil man by simply refusing to care for those who can not/will not care for themselves.  how about defective or ill children in 1st world societies.  what a drain on resources!   oops...got off the bee thing....sorry.  just that the last was an interesting thought.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2010, 02:40:45 PM »

With Monsanto trying to make the backyard garden illegal

huh?
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GoatLady
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« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2010, 08:28:25 AM »

First let me say that I am a Newbee.
Today, my biggest question is what to feed my first bees coming from BeeWeaver the first week of April 2011?
If possible, I would not like to start out on the wrong foot by depending on sugar water. I have no clue if there will be enough blooms at that time (on the desert) to sustain them.
Thank you for your more experienced replies!
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Robo
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« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2010, 08:44:23 AM »

Unless you are buying a nuc that comes with drawn comb and stores,  sugar syrup is your best bet.  If your getting a package, it will come with syrup,  and you want them to build comb as quick as possible so the queen can start laying.  Your hive will be in decline for the first month until brood starts hatching.  You will really be setting them back if you expect them to collect nectar to build wax and feed brood on their own.  The faster you can get them build up, the better off they will be and the quicker you can get off of sugar if that is your goal.
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Bee-Bop
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« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2010, 06:13:23 PM »

I agree with Robo;

Feed, Feed, Feed, those new bees, when nature starts producing enough nectar and pollen, they will stop taking your sugar syrup !

Bee-Bop

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