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Author Topic: pollen substitute  (Read 7836 times)
Finman
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2005, 12:03:46 PM »

Quote from: Lesli

Mwahahahaha!

I swear, ...
Let's say that tomorrow,


Yes. We have orders for organic honey.

http://www.smallholder.co.uk/the_west_country/smallholder/news/SMALLHOLDER_NEWS_EVENTS11.html


If so, you cannot use plastic hives.

You cannot use inseminated queens. Why?

Also we had a point that bees cannot be in area where they use artificial fertilization. But it was taken away because poit was impossilbe to follow.

People pays more double for their "natural honey".  There is a market gap.
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Lesli
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2005, 12:06:40 PM »

I'm assuming I can't do truly organic honey, since I live in dairy country, where corn is grown for feed.
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Lesli
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golfpsycho
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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2005, 12:11:58 PM »

Just trying to have some fun with it.  Those capable of laughing, go ahead.  Those that can't find anything to laugh about,  well.. .not all strokes are debilitating

Nobody wants to put chems in their hives, or in their body for that matter.  Sometimes, there just isn't a choice.  Ask a diabetic.  Does he/she realize the kidney and liver damage the treatment does?  Of course they do.  But what are the options, blind/amputee/fading fast.. or take a couple other pills to mitigate the damage.
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Finman
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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2005, 12:22:34 PM »

Quote from: golfpsycho
Just trying to have some fun with it.  ...
Nobody wants to put chems in their hives, or in their body for that matter.  .


When I started 40 years ago, many old men told that before world war they had bee hives, but very often american fould brood killed all hives. There was no antibiots in that time.

Atre war we put sulfa in hives at autumn. Now it is stricly borbidden.

30 years ago we started to buy "terramycin for poultry formula" from USA.  Many says that is borbidden nor, but that is not true. According the law there is not allowed to be any remainders from that medicine in Europe.

As you see, people find their own rules but bees are tens of millions older than human.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2005, 01:38:32 PM »

There he goes again.... cheesy

Finman wrote; "As you see, people find their own rules but bees are tens of millions older than human."

Of those tens of millions of years, how many has man interfeared? And how many years has man artificially controled the size, feeding, and function of the bees? And how many of those man manipulated years has disease been a real problem unless once again man steps in and artificially fixes it.

Finman, No one is telling you to stop what you are doing and risk your livelyhood for some regressive messures. And to me, regression sounds like a slow process if one has a huge apiary and to maintain some income would have to go really slow.

But on the other hand don't tell us beginners NOT to try putting the bees back to what they had for millions of years and were able to handle it without man.

One can't climb a huge clift without getting a small foot hold.
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Finman
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2005, 01:54:08 PM »

Quote from: Jerrymac

Finman, No one is telling you to stop what you are doing and risk your livelyhood for some regressive messures. .


If you are going to manage with your measures, I am going to catch a lot of honey. And it is nothing to do with comb size.

I have my style, and it is going better and better.

.
Quote

don't tell us beginners NOT to try putting the bees back to what they had for millions of years .


To me, beekeeping is not poetry.  You can do what ever you like, but how you measure your own success, are you able to distinguis, what is essential and what is only poetry.

To me. I measure my success, my understanging with volume of honey.
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Lesli
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2005, 07:50:50 PM »

Finman, as an experienced beekeeper, what do you think explains the Lusby's success on small cell, open mated bees, and no sugar or pollen substitute? As I said in another post, they have managed about 10 years now, no mediations at all, and while there are mites in their apiaries, their bees seem to keep the numbers to a level that the bees can live with.

If Dee is wrong, and it isn't small cell and breeding, then what is it?
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Finman
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2005, 02:38:01 AM »

Quote from: Lesli
Finman, as an experienced beekeeper, what do you think explains the Lusby's success


I do not know who he is, and where he is. I know that there is mite resistant bees over the world. Probably he has such ones.

on small cell, There is no harm about small cells, but if you claim that you get rid off mite with mere cell, the issue is missunderstood

open mated bees,  I also have open mated bees, and 90% of beekeepers has. But after insemination quality of queens jumped a big step forward.
 
and no sugar  Also in Germany they not use sugar for winter because the price of low guality honey and sugar is so near.  Nothing wrong with sugar. You are feeding it all the summer long in your pics. In our counry honey is 7€/kg and sugar 1€/kg. If I leave honey to hive, it is 50% of my years yield.

pollen substitute?  I use pollen substitute because our summer is 3 moth long.  I take pollen substitute into use  last year ago when I found a report from USA website . Soya and yeast is  only 30% that of pollen. Test report from year 1977!

3 USA laboratory tested pollen substitues and result was that soya flour and yeast is good.  Australians has tested pollen feeding also. They have plants in which pollen is not good enough for larvas. Alfa-alfa is such a plant where brood will be in bad condition after honey harvest.  

Very few use pollen substitute.  But with pollen feeding I can prolong my honey yield  50%.  I have got very good results. It is expencive for be. Not for pleasure.

For most of beekepers  it is enough just keeping bees is important.  I am not going to argue with those hobbyist. If they  want to work at survival level, they can do.  That level gives me nothing. It is not interesting me - I am a person which become bored if nothing new is happening.

For me this a hobby and I have 15 another hobby too.  It is very hard to find new and interesting for 40 years, believe me.  For me, this is not religion. I don't believe  in God either.

And organic beekeeping or organic gardening, that is not my area. My education is missed if I beleive all kind of antiknowledge.

I am so called "result oriented"

I am sad about shaking  someone's faith. I do not want to discuss on that level.  SORRY.

You cannot win stupid person with arquing"



Quote
If Dee is wrong, and it isn't small cell and breeding, then what is it?


The mite resistancy is complicated system. It has been reseached 10-20 yeasr and they don't konow how it goes. And if experts do not know, it does make it possible that who ever invent a key THAT IT IS!

You can read that Canadian lost in many area half of bee 2 winter ago  Also you can read that in California they have lost 50% of bees.

Don't say that  someone has key to that prpoblem  Cheesy  Whole Europe has tried to find key for 25 years.

I must keep a brake with these discussions. Not interesting to me.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2005, 05:03:58 AM »

This link takes you to Ed and Dee Lusby's big long write up about what they have done with "Back to nature" beekeeping.

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm

They are in Southern Arizona next door to california.

This was all written a few years ago and the up date is, as I had recieved an Email from them about a month ago, they have continually increased the number of hives they have.
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Finman
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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2005, 05:24:55 AM »

When I see "biological beekeping", I take safety off.
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Finman
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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2005, 05:33:42 AM »

When I see "biological beekeping", I take safety off.

30 years ago bees were much more healthy. They were grazy and you must be ready to run for you life. They broughy about 20 kg/hive.  They swarmed all the time.  

After insemination bees are calm, they swarm very little, they bring about 60 kg/hive.  3 x ancient good times. - But they are sensitive for deseases. I know that.

I have noticed during 30 years that it is not wise to take queen more than 1 generation from commergian queen.

But I promise, that when I am 20 years older, and my brains turn to childhood and I remember only over 50 years old happenings, then I will turn to "biological beekeeping".  Before that I try something else.

 Cool
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2005, 06:42:38 AM »

In other words what you are saying is until Biological beekeeping is studied through some scientific research and is recomended by some government agency, you are not even going to look at it. And even though these people and others doing the same thing are having great success you will continue to believe it is a bunch of nonesense, until someone with a PHd in bee keeping researches it?

This could be something that really catches on and really works, and the whole world could start doing it and be successful at it, but you will not even read up on it until published in some scientific journal?

What you are doing works for you in your part of this world, but how can you debate/argue the issue of biologicak beekeeping if you haven't read what people have done with it and/or know some one that does it that way.

You brought up the fact that a lot of the ferel bees have been wiped out because of the Vorroa mites. Was this determined because at the same time beekeepers were losing their bees to the mite and so the wild bees had to fall to them also? Did anyone go out and find all the dead ferel bee hives and study them to see what they died of? Could it be that many of them died off because of many other things such as weather, Small hive beetles, fires, pesticides, people getting rid of them as unwanted pest, just to name a few. Colonies could lose their queen at the wrong time of the year and never recover. Of the many many ways the ferel bee could have been lost, we are going to blame it on vorroa mites because that is what was wiping out domestic bees. And yet now there are ferel bee hives out there and everyone assumes they must be mite resistant and trying to breed them so man can put them back into his way of doing things. But instead of looking into their genetic make up, what about looking into their hives and seeing if there must be something there that helps them to adapt to new dangers that come their way. I've read the articles on good bee grooming. But does anyone combine the bee grooming and the natural way bees behave? Or instead do they just want to breed in this bee grooming trait, take it out of the natural hive and place it into the artificial hive.
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Finman
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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2005, 07:38:34 AM »

Quote from: Jerrymac
In other words what you are saying is until Biological beekeeping is studied through some scientific research ....


To me, all beekeping is biological. I do not understand why someone want to add that word to it. What makes me "unbiological" beekeeper?

I have degree in genetics in Helsinki University.  I find quite soon, if someone is talking blaa blaa.  

 
Quote
his could be something that really catches on and really works, and the whole world could start doing it and be successful at it, but you will not even read up on it until published in some scientific journal?  


If you think so, you keep me really stupid person  Cheesy

 
Quote
What you are doing works for you in your part of this world, but how can you debate/argue the issue of biologicak beekeeping if you haven't read what people have done with it and/or know some one that does it that way.  


I ask: When you have resolution, why dont use it ?  Dont blame me.

 
Quote
You brought up the fact that a lot of the ferel bees have been wiped out because of the Vorroa mites. Was this determined because at the same time beekeepers were losing their bees to the mite and so the wild bees had to fall to them also? Did anyone go out and find all the dead ferel bee hives and study them to see what they died of? Could it be that many of them died off because of many other things such as weather, Small hive beetles, fires, pesticides, people getting rid of them as unwanted pest, just to name a few.  


No no no no , you are wrong totally. When varroa came to my area, feral bees vanished during 4 year and never came back.  Now feral bees are italian or Carniola.  We started to keep Carniolas 10 yeasr ago. They are not real feral bees . That feral "German Black" have vanished.

 
Quote
Colonies could lose their queen at the wrong time of the year and never recover.
  not at all. Perhaps 10% can happen so. So they vanish from earth, no.   I can see that you have very little experience from bee biology.

 
Quote
Of the many many ways the ferel bee could have been lost, we are going to blame it on vorroa mites because that is what was wiping out domestic bees.  


In Finlan we have not real feral bees. Our feral bees were in little beehives which lazy beekeepers kept in they yards and they took theree some kilos honey.  And if hive died, a new swarm came in.

When mite came to district, that feral cross blooded bee race vanished totally.  Never seen after that in wood lands. Before that (1988) everywhere in woodlands Isaw  those black bees in fire weeds.

In Finland many professional beekeepers try to seek self resistant feral hives, but they haven't found any.  


You are sayig things, what hundreds of people are makin efforts for. But if you can understand, I have no change to that kind of work and I am not to sacrifice my hives to "altar  of stoneage or future".

And also: I dont recommend for beginners that kind of tricks which are not ready for normal use.

If you want understand me wrong you can do it. It do not hurt me. I have strong ego.  I manage with my bees very well and my meaning in the world is nothing in this issue.

I am going to get a good honey yield next summer with normal bees and with normal combs.  Nothing mystery in my system.

The core in my system is to find good pastures and I gather only cream from flowers. This is challenge for me. It is not easy to find good pastures, you know. Even my super biological knowledges does not help me allways.  Cool

Honey is in flowers and bees gather it. If flowers are over distance of 1 km yield will drop 50%.   Also hive must have 5-6 boxes, so it is able to handle honey flow. So easy.
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