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Author Topic: 5:3 syrup  (Read 4264 times)
JhnR
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2008, 07:19:08 AM »

I copied this from MB's website (thanks Mike)

What kind of sugar? It matters not at all if it's beet sugar or cane sugar.

It matters a lot if it's granulated white sugar or anything else. Powdered sugar, brown sugar, molasses and any other unrefined sugar is not good for bees. They can't handle the solids.

Pollen is fed either in open feeders for the bees to gather it (dry) or in patties (mixed with syrup or honey into a dough and pressed between sheets of waxed paper). The patties are put on the top bars. A shim is helpful to make room for the patty. I usually do open feeding dry.

Measuring ratios for syrup.

The standard mixtures are 1:1 in the spring and 2:1 in the fall (sugar:water). People often use something other than those for their own reasons. Some people use 2:1 in the spring because it's easier to haul around and keeps better. Some people use 1:1 in the fall because they believe it stimulates brood rearing and they want to be sure to have young bees going into winter. The bees will manage either way. I use more like 5:3 (sugar:water) all the time. It keeps better than 1:1 and is easier to dissolve than 2:1.

The next argument is over weight or volume. If you have a good scale you can find this out for yourself, but take a pint container, tare it (weigh it empty) and fill it with water. The water will weigh very close to a pound. Now take a dry pint container, tare it (weigh it empty) and fill it with white sugar and weight it. It will weigh very close to a pound. So I'll keep this very simple. For the sake of mixing syrup for feeding bees, it just doesn't matter. You can mix and match. "A pints a pound the world around" as far as dry white sugar and water are concerned. At least until you've mixed the syrup. So if you take 10 pints of water, boil it, and add 10 pounds of sugar you'll get the same thing as if you took 10 pounds of water, boil it, and add 10 pints of sugar.

The next confusion seems to be on how much it takes to make how much syrup. The volume of 10 pints of water and 10 pints of sugar will make about 15 pints of syrup, not 20. The sugar and the water fit together.

Don't confuse the issue of how you measure. Measure before you mix. In other words, you can't fill a container 1/3 of the way with water, and add sugar until it's 2/3 full and have 1:1 syrup. You'll get more like 2:1 syrup. Likewise, you can't fill it 1/3 of the way with sugar and then add water until it's 2/3 full and have 1:1 syrup. You'll get more like 1:2. You have to measure both separately and then put them together to get an accurate measurement. I find the easiest is to use pints for water and pounds for sugar since the sugar comes in packages marked in pounds and volume is easy to measure for water. So if you know you are going to add 10 pounds of sugar and you want 1:1 then start with 10 pints of boiling water and add the 10 pounds of sugar.

How to make syrup.

I boil the water and add the sugar and then when it's all dissolved turn off the heat. With 2:1 this can take some time. Either way, boiling the water makes the syrup keep longer by killing all the microorganism that might be in the sugar or the water.

Moldy syrup

I don't let a little mold bother me, but if it smells too funny or it's too moldy I throw it out. If you use essential oils (and I don't) they tend to keep it from molding. Some people add various things to control this. Clorox, distilled vinegar, vitamin C, lemon juice and other things are used by various people to help it keep longer. All of these except the Clorox make the syrup more acidic and closer to the acidity of honey (lower the pH).

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WhipCityBeeMan
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2008, 07:57:40 AM »

Quote
Granulated sugar right out the store is what most that feed small amounts use. Seems the controversy is now over HFCS.


I admit that I use granulated sugar to feed.  On a scale from 1-10 how bad do we think that it is for the bees?  And how much dopes it cost to feed beet or cane sugar compared to granulated white?
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2008, 08:24:37 AM »

Quote
Granulated sugar right out the store is what most that feed small amounts use. Seems the controversy is now over HFCS.


I admit that I use granulated sugar to feed.  On a scale from 1-10 how bad do we think that it is for the bees?  And how much dopes it cost to feed beet or cane sugar compared to granulated white?

Granulated white sugar is almost always "pure cane sugar"
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WhipCityBeeMan
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2008, 08:26:52 AM »

I just checked the bag and it does say pure cane granulated sugar so I guess it is fine for the bees. 

What kind is not good.  i guess I am not understanding that part?
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Nelly
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2008, 09:13:19 AM »

The problem with the quote from Beekeeping for Dummies is they're saying a 1:1 mix is 5 lbs sugar to 10 pints (pounds) water.  That's not 1:1, it's .5 to 1.  Looks like they're the dummies---

1:1 would be 5 lbs to 5 pints

5:3 would be 5 lbs to 3 pints

Nelly
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bmacior
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2008, 09:48:35 AM »

the 5 lbs to 10 pints was my mistake embarassed not the beekeeping for dummies book.  They've got it right.

HFCS isn't good for people. It isn't good for animals.  How can it be good for the bees? The new HFCS commercial really burns my ...
They say it is natural as it is made from corn.  My kids say marijuana is natural (and therefore good) because it is made from the same plant (that makes it natural) that is used to make hemp ropes.

Remember the coke classic new coke issue years ago.  New coke contained HFCS and people could taste the difference and raised a rukus. So the company came out with coke classic using the old sugar recipe.  Coke is just coke now with HFCS.  If you want coke made with sugar, you have to buy Mexican coke.  If you want to lose 10 lbs quick, give up soft drinks.

The obesity issue in America follows exactly the timeline of the the introduction of HFCS into the American food supply. 
I don't know what the rules are here, so rather than posting a page about HFCS here from another site of mine, if you are interested, let me know and I can send you a link to read about it.

So now I'm off my band wagon. Thank you JhnR for posting the information from MBs site.  It was very informative.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2008, 10:41:10 AM »

>I don't know what the rules are here, so rather than posting a page about HFCS here from another site of mine, if you are interested, let me know and I can send you a link to read about it.

No problem--- Post the page!
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WhipCityBeeMan
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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2008, 10:53:52 AM »

Varroa mites are "natural" too but I don't think they are good for bees. 

Rocks are "natural" but they would do a number on your digestive system if you were too eat them. 

Tell that to your grand kids about the marijuana.  Just because it is natural doesn't mean that it is good for you. 
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sc-bee
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2008, 11:00:01 AM »

In reference to 1:1--

"usually one part sugar and one part water by weight or volume."
                                                                           ABC&XYZ of Bee Culture (pg 247)

I think we got the weight thing, how would you measure by volume? I understand sugar is a dry measurement and water a liquid but in this reference mixing (sugar and water) would volume not be:

1 cup sugar : 1 cup water

Do the bees care?

In reference to 1:1 verses 2:1 , Later in the same passage "However, in both cases the bees are remarkably adept at utilizing the food in a manner that will best suit their purpose."

O.K. I think I have beat it to death now ----- I QUIT Kiss grin!
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bmacior
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2008, 01:49:55 PM »

http://www.zijamoringahealth.com/Nutrition/Health_and_Nutrition/Obesity.html

I agree with you.  Just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's good for you.  That is my whole point about HFCS.  It's not good for you and it's not good for your bees. 

I bought some Mega Bee pollen substitute.  But before I did, I called them to find out if they use HFCS in their formula.  They told me "absolutely not!"   If they felt it was good for the bees, they'd be using it, as it is cheaper than sugar and would increase their profit margin.  If you are trying to make a healthy supplement, you don't add unhealthy things (unless it's being made in China grin).

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sc-bee
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« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2008, 02:27:00 PM »

There is also a debate that HFCS may be going though a change during hot weather if stored in a tank --- like @ your distributor etc.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2008, 08:45:44 PM »

>1:1  according to beekeeping for dummies is 5 lbs. sugar:2 1/2 qts (10 pints) water.

Really?  Then he got it wrong.

>2:1  then should be 10 lbs:10 pints.

It's 10 lbs : 5 pints.

>Is 5:3  5 lbs:3 pints? huh

Yes.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#ratios

As far as what kind "regular granulated sugar" IS beet or cane sugar.  It's plain white sugar.  Not brown sugar.  Not powdered sugar.  Plain old white sugar.  Plain old white comes from either cane or beet.  Either works fine for feeding bees.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#kindofsugar
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Michael Bush
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2008, 08:53:27 PM »

>Does a cup of granulated sugar really weigh a whole pound?

No.  A cup of granulated sugar weighs a half of a pound.  A PINT of granulated sugar weighs a pound.

>  Seems like the 5lb bags of sugar contain a lot more than just 5 cups of sugar to me.

Yes.  It contains twice that.

>I admit that I use granulated sugar to feed.  On a scale from 1-10 how bad do we think that it is for the bees?

The only thing better would be honey.  Nectar is almost pure sucrose with a few trace minerals and a few organic acids (formic, malic, oxalic, citric, acetic etc.)

>  And how much dopes it cost to feed beet or cane sugar compared to granulated white?

Beet and cane sugar ARE granulated white sugar.  These are not different things.  They are the same thing.

As far as how good it is for the bees that is a matter of opinion but the opinion of many of the great beekeepers through the years is that honey is better for them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#leavehoneyforwinterfood

And keep in mind the pH of honey vs the pH of sugar syrup:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#chalkbrood
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Michael Bush
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johnnybigfish
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« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2008, 08:53:36 PM »

Sheesh you guys,..Its me again, "Mr. Lucky"!
 I dump half a bag(about 5 lbs) of sugar into an orange bucket (maybe 2 gallons)..I add hot water to make melting of the sugar  easier. Once its disolved I top it off with cool water and steer it. Then I feed it to the bees Smiley

your friend,
john
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2008, 08:55:12 PM »

They are running ads on TV around here that say that HFCS is good for you because it is created naturally...  rolleyes
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WhipCityBeeMan
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« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2008, 09:05:09 PM »

Thanks for taking the time to straighten us (me) out on all that confusion Mike.  Great website by the way. 
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greg spike
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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2008, 11:30:28 AM »

They are running ads on TV around here that say that HFCS is good for you because it is created naturally... 

Yeah, I saw that too. thought it was hilarious.

Nothing really wrong with corn syrup, just the way it is used. Depending on the formulation, it can be half as sweet as cane syrup. That allows manufacturers to cram twice the calories into foods and drink, for the same level of sweetness as cane sugar.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2008, 10:39:32 PM »

My grandmother drummed into me so many years ago: The pints a pound the world around, except for honey.

For normal purposes a pint (volume) equals 1 pound (wieght) the volume and wieght being equal in the Old English measuring system.

1 cup = 8 ounces = 1/2 pound
1 pint = 16 oounces = 1 pound
1 quart = 32 ounces = 2 pounds
1 gallon = 128 ounces = 8 pounds

Now when mixing a solid and a liquid 1 + 1 doesn't always = 2.  For example if you mix 5lbs of sugar and 3 pints of water you end up with 1 gallon by volume due to  displacement.  That's why the 5:3 mix is so easy to use.  So if you just want to fill a 1 gallon container with syrup use the 5:3 formula, works every time.
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