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Author Topic: What to feed in the fall??  (Read 5027 times)
johnwm73
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« on: September 14, 2008, 02:49:51 PM »

I keep hearing to feed in the fall syrup. But after looking at some bee suppliers they have said to feed pollen patties. Is that true or should I just feed a 2:1 syrup for the fall and pollen patties early in the spring only?
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2008, 03:40:10 PM »

John, there is so much discussion about whether to feed pollen in the fall.  It totally depends upon if the bees have gathered enough pollen throughout the summer.  It is in the spring that the bees really rely heavily upon pollen.  They use it during the winter too, but pollen is usually associated with mass brood rearing.  The bees require pollen as a nutrient to live.  I don't feed pollen in the winter time, but my bees gather copious amounts throughout the summer here, so I don't need to in winter.  You will hear more, and you will then have to make an informed decision.  It certainly could not hurt one little bit to give a great pollen patty to them, just in case though.  Have a most wonderfully awesome day, love our life.  Cindi
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2008, 04:29:28 PM »

I am feeding syrup with a 5:3 ration this fall.  I am not feeding pollen patties during the fall.  I will probably do so in the spring depending on the weather and available pollen in the hive.
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2008, 07:57:44 PM »

If there is poor fall flow and no pollen coming in, it might help to feed pollen.  It might be a detriment to feed pollen substitute since it is a proven fact that bees from pollen substitute do not live as long as bees from pollen and you need long lived bees to get through to spring.  If at all possible make sure they have young bees going into winter.

While 2:1 is the normal recommendation for fall feeding I usually run closer to the 5:3 mentioned above.  it dissolves better and doesn't crystallize as much, but keeps better than 1:1.
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2008, 09:41:47 AM »

Eeeks, getting back to the pollen patty supplement.  Michael is totally correct about the pollen patty supplement.  Whenever I think of pollen patty supplement, I speak of a patty that is comprised with natural pollen, along with the sugar syrup and also a brewer's yeast (or not).  This year I am going to be feeding pollen patties ONLY made with pollen, sugar and water to make that patty.  When I think of this supplement, I think of pollen, not pollen substitute.  This should be clarified.  We do need long-lived bees in the wintertime, they need to be healthy, long-lived bees as well.  Beautiful, most wonderful day, lovin' this great life.  Cindi 
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2008, 01:00:39 PM »

What about some of these feeds that "boost" brood and etc.  I don't have a magazine to give any names at work, but do any of these work or should we just stick with real pollen?
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Stephen Stewart
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2008, 01:40:55 PM »

I have never used Pollen patties before, never had to, but this year I am, I am looking at a big expansion next year and like most pollinators want my hives large early in the spring, I am going to feed patties this fall, only thing with feeding pollen patties in the fall in SHB area's, dont feed more that 1/4 patty at a time, SHB's love it and will cover it with larva in a few days...

  I always feed 2-1 syrup in the fall.
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2008, 02:26:14 PM »

I like the idea of using pollen patties as a trap for SHB.
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2008, 03:24:21 PM »

Eeeks, getting back to the pollen patty supplement.  Michael is totally correct about the pollen patty supplement.  Whenever I think of pollen patty supplement, I speak of a patty that is comprised with natural pollen, along with the sugar syrup and also a brewer's yeast (or not).  This year I am going to be feeding pollen patties ONLY made with pollen, sugar and water to make that patty.  When I think of this supplement, I think of pollen, not pollen substitute.  This should be clarified.  We do need long-lived bees in the wintertime, they need to be healthy, long-lived bees as well.  Beautiful, most wonderful day, lovin' this great life.  Cindi 

Would you share the recipe please Cindi on making the patties with just pollen, sugar and water. Where do you get the pollen from???

Thanks
Annette
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2008, 08:49:45 PM »


Where do you get the pollen from???


You can trap it yourself in the spring or buy it from a supply company.
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2008, 10:45:13 AM »

Annette, this will be the first year that I have made the pollen patties without the binder of brewer's yeast.  I have not made them yet, but I will be getting the perfect amount in the receipe from my mentor, he will tell me the exact amounts to blend.  I am not sure that the pollen patty will bind well enough to make the pollen all stick together in the sugar syrup water.  No clue, maybe it binds anyway you mix it, but I will be looking into this very, very soon and will tell you.  Have the most beautiful and most wonderful day, Cindi
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2008, 11:46:52 AM »

I am so glad I read this post.I just called Dadant yesterday to order some Mega Bee pollen patties.After reading the negative post I am glad they were out, so I didn't order.
I too was wanting to get a good strong hive over fall/winter, for next spring.
Think I'll just start feeding sugar/water mixture 2:1.We are having our 1st cool spell, it is in the eighties.
Where's the best place to buy sugar 25 or 50 # bags?
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2008, 03:46:49 PM »

I am so glad I read this post.I just called Dadant yesterday to order some Mega Bee pollen patties.After reading the negative post I am glad they were out, so I didn't order.


a few of my friends said Mega bee was the best they seen ever and they were surprised at how well this stuff worked, hives did extremely well winter and spring, a couple of them have feed straight pollen before and but it cost to much for large number of hives, they are in commercial queen rearing, and one friend is in pollination also, they said Mega bee was the best! I got some on order, going to try it myself!! I have not heard anything negative about Mega bee, where did you see this?

http://megabeediet.com/

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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2008, 07:55:37 PM »

ArmucheeBee mentioned using a pollen patty in an SHB trap. Here in the south I learned first hand a hard lesson about leaving excess patties on and attracting SHB. I never thought as using them for SHB bait.
Does anyone know anything about this method?
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2008, 08:38:29 PM »

Here's is what I would do.  Take a box (anykind), cut a small hole in it.  Or use an empty hive body.  Put in a 6x6 inch piece of corrugated cardboard, set a 1/4 patty on it and check it each day.  SMASH those little buggers as you find them.  I caught over 400 yellow jackets with my homemade trap and now have no problems around the hives from them.  My friend a couple of miles away can not keep the jackets out of her hives or off her when she visits them.  Low tech is sometimes the best tech.
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2008, 10:18:31 AM »

Annette, here's for you.  I contacted my original bee course instructor and asked about the mixture of sugar syrup with pollen to make the patties bind.

He left me in the dark  huh huh huh  All he told me was that they mix the sugar syrup mixture with the pollen until it binds.  Now I am on an agenda to figure out the mixture that binds, but not just yet.  Still far too busy with end of summer stuff.  I am not even sure if I will feed pollen patties before spring building up anyways. I will begin to feed my bees s.s. soon, mixed with fumigilan as a nosema preventative.  We are urged to do this here because of our dank, wet winters, and the possibility of an endless ugly spring again.  It was not urged to do this before, but with some of the issues with the two nosema species issues, it is now recommended (don't like to use chemicals, but nosema can be pretty bad stuff up in our neck of the woods).  Beautiful most wonderful days, Cindi
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2008, 12:23:23 PM »

Thanks Cindi

I guess just keep adding sugar to the mixture until it binds?Huh  Also do you order your pollen from someplace?Huh

Thanks once again for the info.

Annette
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 12:47:21 PM »

I just saw a yellow jacket coming out of the green girls hive...sneaky little ^%%!! as it ran under the hives before I could squish it...after the fair this afternoon it's all out war here!! angry.  When it gets dark I take a LONG stick & smush the paper nests on the eves evil Don't use a ladder in case they are not cool enough yet to slow em down..can't run squeeling like a girl when on a ladder..not that I would know this personally.. rolleyes Can't use fire on the eves either..darn!  BUT I can cut the nests out of trees & such..THEN BURN BABY BURN with my Buckley flamethrower! evil grin
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 02:33:32 PM »

poka-bee

you know yellow jackets live in the ground, right?   paper wasps build the small nests under your eaves.  see my post in "pests" on how to build a YJ trap with apple juice or beer.  I caught over 400!!!   I have no problems now.
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2008, 08:30:32 PM »

Yes I do but generalize out of laziness rolleyes.  The only wasps I let be are the narrow waisted or black ones & the little teeny tiny ones, basically any that don't resemble hornets!  Bald faced hornets get blasted too when I see em.  May not be PC but they can go somewhere else & not bother me or my bees! I squished a couple by the hives today grin.  The other types have never been aggressive to me or the kids....Jody
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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2008, 11:59:49 PM »

Back to the topic people.....

[...depends upon if the bees have gathered enough pollen....]
Absolutely true.

[...in the spring that the bees really rely heavily upon pollen...with mass brood rearing.]
Absolutely true.

[The bees require pollen as a nutrient to live.]
Regarding winter...
More specifically, there are fats in pollen that aid in insulating bees for the winter.
These fat store also tend to increase the minimal immune system bees have.
So it could be said that the fat helps to ward off winter sickness too.

In spring, the protein is associated with brood rearing.
It should also be considered as necessary for rearing drones for healthy mating for spring queens.
Likewise, it can be fed later in the year in attemp to retain drones longer for later summer queens.

The area of dispute is one that neither side can really win.
The question is "Can a suppliment/replacer equal the nutrition found in nature?"
(it really should be can it support nutrition found in nature)

One arguement is that nature supplies what is needed (tell that to people in the desert).
But different pollen has different mineral/vitamin/fat values.
So hopes are that enough variety is collected to hit all the base values needed.
However, man like to swap combs around and extract honey and force extra brood rearing.
These all cause what we might construe to be more than natural draws on stores.
Bees do work hard to compensate for these losses. But that effort is a stress too.
And once a pollen is lost or washed out by rain, it sometimes doesn't return.

The other arguement is man is smart enough to establish a minimal diet.
While we might not be as complete as a variety of pollen, we are likely better than a single source.
And if you combine that with regular normal forage, there is a fair chance that a diet could be more complete than a gathered diet alone.
There is the arguement, and I know there is this study and that study that state that artifical diets lead to a shorter life span in the bees. (I don't trust studies as they can be slanted however anyone wants an outcome to appear)(and repeated lies, repeated enough, become construed as truth).

Well... lets think about this:
 
When is a bee's life normally shorter? Summer.
So what is more plentiful in the summer? Pollen and nectar.
Ah, so pollen and nectar (or its replacement) signal to the bees that its summer (or near it).
This messes with hormone levels that regulate the age of the bees.
So while as shorter life might be more pronounced with a good quality replacer, it may be actually signaling that the diet is more complete (like in summer) than with a single pollen variety (spring or fall).

The real trick is when to feed pollen.
You don't want to disrupt natural collection, you want to support it.
You don't want to extend the support too long because the bees construe it to a longer or new season.
So there is a window of operation, unfortunately that varies by region.

I also don't believe that everyone stores pollen the same. There are a number of nutrients that degrade with time, temperature, and increases/decreases in humidity. So just because it is 'real pollen' doesn't mean its 'really healthy pollen'.

You can see where opinions get to be a bit like religion here.
Eventually you will see results that cause you to build and accept your own doctrine as gospel.
That's all fine and good, because if we all kept bees the same, a single disease could wipe out everyone.

-Jeff
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« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2008, 10:25:04 PM »

ArmucheeBee mentioned using a pollen patty in an SHB trap. Here in the south I learned first hand a hard lesson about leaving excess patties on and attracting SHB. I never thought as using them for SHB bait.
Does anyone know anything about this method?

To SHB a pollen patty means party time and they crash the gate big time.  Use of pollen substitutes is even worse, if you want an SHB problem that's a good way to start one.  It is better to feed patties sparingly, in small pieces, and often with breaks in between to lessen SHB infestation.
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2008, 09:09:36 AM »

poka-bee
you know yellow jackets live in the ground, right?   paper wasps build the small nests under your eaves.  see my post in "pests" on how to build a YJ trap with apple juice or beer.  I caught over 400!!!   I have no problems now.


Stephen, unbelievable!!!  I have learned something new today.  I have always referred to these paperwasps as yellowjackets.  Absolutely and absolutely wrong.  I will now call them paperwasps, because I am informed, thanks to your post.  These paperwasps are the ones that I work hard to eliminate around my property, they do do damage to the honeybees, and they pack a powerful sting.  When I am working the colonies in late summer, they are a nuisance to me too, I usually grab them really quickly between my thumb and first finger and snap my fingers, they fling apart long before they can even think to sting.  Anyways, I love to learn and you have enlightened my day. 

I do see the yellowjacket all the time too, they are entirely different than the paperwasps, and have a much smaller body than the paperwasps.  It is the paperwasps that cause harm to my bees, I have never seen the yellowjackets bothering them, ever.  I have always called the yellowjacket wasps, "wasps" with no other description, but "now I know", yeah!!!!!  Have a most beautiful and wonderful day, Cindi

Identical picture below at Wikipedia, to my picture of the paperwasp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_wasp

The yellowjacket from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_jacket

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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2008, 10:08:39 AM »

When you feed a patty do they store it also?
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2008, 09:46:48 AM »

Annette, I purchase irradiated pollen from my bee instructor, he runs 1200 colonies and gathers lots of pollen.  I have not yet to gather pollen from my colonies, but that is my intention for next year.

Mat, now that is a really good question.  Whether the bees store the pollen patty, no clue, I would love to hear that answer though, perhaps it will come.  Have the most wonderful and awesome of days.  Cindi
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2008, 12:45:05 PM »

Thanks Cindi for the info. Fortunately, I found many frames of pollen I had stored away and had forgotten about. I will now feed these frames back to the bees by next week.

Take care
Annette
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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2008, 09:03:20 AM »

Annette, more clearly define about the pollen frames.  The reason that I say this is that pollen loses its nutritional value after about one years time.  That is even if it is stored in the freezer.  If these frames were not frozen, or even refrigerated, the nutritional value would not be very high.  Google this to have what I am saying corroborated, it is important that the bees have nutritional pollen.  I am pretty sure this has also been discussed in our forum too, but to try and find that thread might be an enormous task.  Have a most wonderful and awesomely great day, Cindi
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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2008, 09:38:10 PM »

These pollen frames were removed from my laying worker hive that died out in beginning of July and my other hive that got hit by wax moths end of July (I had to bring them down from 6 supers to 3 supers to control the wax moths). I froze these frames for a few weeks time. So they are still fresh and good to use I guess. They are so full of pollen and very heavy to lift. I would hate to waste these frames especially I can see my hives really need them.

What do you think?? Only about 2 months time.
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2008, 11:20:32 AM »


Pollen patties:
For a small batch-
2 cups of pollen
add just enough water to cover the pollen 1/4" and let the pollen absorb the water overnight.
add granulated sugar to the pollen and stir until it becomes the consistency of bread dough.
Place a scoop of the mix, I used an ice cream scoop, onto waxed paper, place a second piece of wax paper on top and flatten out to about 1/2"
The best sugar syrup is like a type 50 syrup for feeding bees because does not dry out as fast as the above mix.
Place any extra patties in the freezer.

Good luck.
Ernie Lucas Apiaries
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2008, 11:30:10 AM »

poka-bee

you know yellow jackets live in the ground, right?   paper wasps build the small nests under your eaves.  see my post in "pests" on how to build a YJ trap with apple juice or beer.  I caught over 400!!!   I have no problems now.

One way to spend a lazy afternoon is to set up a community feeder and then wait for the wasps, hornets, and yellow jackets to arrive.  I sometimes spend hours squishing them with my cane tip.  Great way to work off your frustrations and aggrivations.
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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2008, 03:54:36 PM »


Pollen patties:
For a small batch-
2 cups of pollen
add just enough water to cover the pollen 1/4" and let the pollen absorb the water overnight.
add granulated sugar to the pollen and stir until it becomes the consistency of bread dough.
Place a scoop of the mix, I used an ice cream scoop, onto waxed paper, place a second piece of wax paper on top and flatten out to about 1/2"
The best sugar syrup is like a type 50 syrup for feeding bees because does not dry out as fast as the above mix.
Place any extra patties in the freezer.

Good luck.
Ernie Lucas Apiaries
(Queen Breeder)


Thanks for the recips. Sounds great.
Annette
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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2008, 09:05:14 PM »

Was Matt's question ever anwered?  I just received my PP in the mail.  Do they store it?
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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2008, 09:37:30 PM »


I just received my PP in the mail.  Do they store it?
I do not know what kind of pollen patties you odered? But, they do not store them. They have to be within 2" of the brood nest for good consumption. I have some on the top bars of a double brood boxes with a 3/4" rim and for some others I place the pattie between the brood boxes/brood chambers.
Currently I am feeding Mann Lakes 15% pollen patties + one gallon syrup pails on the cover with a 1.5" hole cut out with a hole saw. Most of the hives have been on "feed lot" feeding for 8 weeks and they have consumed 6-8 patties per hive! We will feed them fumagillin syrup in about 4-6 weeks. You want the fumagillin readily available to the bees and not covered up with syrup from later feedings. In other words fed them for winter weight 1st. Research has proved that fumagillin is better fed in the fall than the spring to keep your spore counts down.
good Luck
Regards,
Ernie
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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2008, 08:26:28 AM »

Wow.  2 inches from the brood!!   I did not know that.  Thus my OB hive is not interested in it for just that reason.  So I have to open it again and reposition the patty on top of each frame!!!  I have Mann Lake too, but only 4%, I did not see 15% when I was buying!!
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Stephen Stewart
2nd Grade Teacher

"You don't need a license to drive a sandwich."  SpongeBob Squarepants
Cindi
Galactic Bee
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Gender: Female
Posts: 9827

Location: Grindrod, B.C. Canada


« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2008, 11:07:34 AM »

Stephen, Matt's question has not been answered, unless I have been missing something.

I'll ask the question again, let's see if we can keep on track and get the answer, I want to know too.

Do bees store pollen patty in the comb?

I would think personally that they don't store it, but consume it and leave any pollen stores that they may already have in the cell, but the question needs further answers, and definition.

Bees4U, that was a great summary of how to make pollen patties, with only pollen, sugar and water, thank you.

I am a hands on person.  Instead of stirring this stuff with a spoon, I would just love to get my hands in there and squish it all up, and oh yes, the scent of pollen is a thing of beauty.....

The pollen patty DOES need to be as close to the brood as is possibly feasible.  That way the nurse bees can just go grap a hunk of pollen food and do their thing without having to travel too far.  It is is too far away, they don't really know it is there, hee, hee.  They are so focused on working in the brood area that they don't have time to travel to that store.  Beautiful and most wonderful day, love our groovin' life we all live and share.  Cindi
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