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Author Topic: Small Cell Colonies  (Read 16930 times)
Lesli
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2005, 09:35:45 AM »

Quote
AHB aren't small cell are they


Actually, the are!  

Here's more info on feral bees:

Cornell University, a major research institution in agriculture, recently did a survey of feral colonies in Arnot Forest (I'm only about 20 miles from Ithaca, NY where Cornell is located): from Bee Culture:

Quote
It seems that honey bees infested with Varroa mites and have not been treated with chemicals are doing just fine in the Cornell University s Arnot Forest.


http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=411
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Lesli
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2005, 09:57:08 AM »

Lesli,
That link you gave, here is a part of it; "Many questions remain, according to Dr. Spivak who concludes, there are no beekeepers or researchers who have successfully bred a line of bees that is Varroa resistant or tolerant such that they (sic) can survive without treatment."

Now I wonder why out of all the "References" the Lusbys are not mentioned anywhere?

You do realize ofcourse that should some magical bee come along that laughs at all pest and disease, then the reserch labs will be cut off from funding. They will no longer be needed.

And people wonder why I don't trust these guys to come up with our answers.
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Finman
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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2005, 09:59:21 AM »

Quote from: TwT
I have read about the Russian bee's being mite resistant for 100 years and there not small cell bee's, don't think they are anyways. .


See Canadin report:2002: http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=2294

If the case is Clear, why Canadians  make that research?
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Lesli
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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2005, 10:03:37 AM »

We do have conflicts of interest in research. Companies that create chemical treatments are not going to fund research into resistant bees or small cell or anything else that would make their products redundant.

I applaud the work of breeders--but they have a monetary interest, too. It doesn't make them dishonest, but it's something to keep in mind. If all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail.
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Lesli
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TwT
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2005, 11:32:16 AM »

Quote from: Finman
See Canadin report:2002: http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=2294

If the case is Clear, why Canadians  make that research?


Americans are still researching the russian bees too, but they do show some promise, you know I think it's just a matter of time before the feral population here in america that have survived the mites like the russian bee's  did in russia, because feral hive's are on the come back, I moved to Ga. in 89 and I never seen a honey bee on my place for about 13 years but i saw a few this past 2 years. Evolution, only the strong survive.
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Finman
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2005, 11:42:08 AM »

Quote from: TwT

Americans are still researching the russian bees too, but they do show some promise, you know I think it's just a matter of time before the feral population here in america that have survived the mites like the russian bee's  did in russia, because feral hive's are on the come back.


You are right! They are coming back. I wrote a research.

Also I have a feral beehive near my summer cottage and I have  followed it 6 years. It is alive all the time. It lives inside brick wall of building and I am going to mate my queens with it. Also there has been 20 year  a feral bee hive in the tower of church, told by my friend beekeeper.

Every where they do this kind of work.

But as I have tried to say, I am not going to sacrifice my few hives for beekeeping's  future.
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Jay
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2005, 02:14:51 PM »

I'm gonna get me some frames with only one cell on each side! That way I figure I'll need only about 6 bees to get me 250 lbs of honey!!  I might need to adjust the size of the entrance though, waddaya think? cheesy  cheesy  cheesy
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Finman
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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2005, 02:28:25 PM »

Quote from: Jay
I'm gonna get me some frames with only one cell on each side! That way I figure I'll need only about 6 bees to get me 250 lbs of honey!!  I might need to adjust the size of the entrance though, waddaya think? cheesy  cheesy  cheesy


If you have so good idea, it is better to keep as secret, for some time Cheesy
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Jay
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2005, 06:21:39 PM »

Finman, I'll let you know how it goes!  If it works maybe I'll send you some superbees!! Maybe this is the awnser we're all looking for!! With bees like this, there's no way those tiny little mites can even make a dent!! We might have to reconsider what we wear for protective clothing however!!! cheesy  cheesy  cheesy
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Lesli
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2005, 07:47:13 PM »

My poor dog! He'll never go to the beeyard again.
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Lesli
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asleitch
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« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2005, 08:04:28 AM »

http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/index-f.html

Makes interesting reading. To some up though....

Quote
the result do not indicate that the reproduction of mites was substantially influenced by cell size on worker bee brood.


And from Dave cushmans site... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/denwood.html

Quote
Though the details as reported at third-hand are confusing, this would seem to suggest an anti-varroa effect of large-sized cells.


So, should we be using large cells to combat varroa? Anyone?

As for me, I'm with Finman, my bee inspector is not recommending this as worthwhile effort, but I attended a IPM (integrated pest management) day run by our bee inspectors, and the likes of shook swarm (every year onto foundation), queen trapping to a single comb (replaced to act as an attractant), monitoring of resistance to chemicals etc were all discussed in detail, with scientific data to back up the results. I'll stick with my standatd sized cells, and use the technques that have stood up to rigorous scientific method. Shook swarm, queen trapping, open mesh floor, chemicals etc.

We are fortunate in the UK to have the Central Science Laboraotry, (who in fact are the employer of the Bee Inspectors), so any information they are recommended, has been tried, tested and approved for results.

http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/

I, for one, will wait to see evidence from properly controlled experiments before I commit to either larger, or smaller cell sizes. I'm willing to change, but only on the back of rigorous scientific method.

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2005, 09:21:40 AM »

I still have comb from the small feral  hive I wiped out a few months ago. If anyone knows how to translate these measurements from inches to the 5.9 or 4.9 or what ever it might be.

Here they are. As the comb hangs from the ceiling there are flat walls on the right and left. so going straight across five cells come to one inch exactly. From top right diagonal to bottom left fives cells are exactly one inch. The last measurement from top left to bottom right is one inch exactly.

Measured wall to wall.

So what is it?
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asleitch
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« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2005, 10:02:44 AM »

Quote from: Jerrymac
I still have comb from the small feral  hive I wiped out a few months ago. If anyone knows how to translate these measurements from inches to the 5.9 or 4.9 or what ever it might be.

Here they are. As the comb hangs from the ceiling there are flat walls on the right and left. so going straight across five cells come to one inch exactly. From top right diagonal to bottom left fives cells are exactly one inch. The last measurement from top left to bottom right is one inch exactly.

Measured wall to wall.

So what is it?




Are your measurement like this?

You measure across the 10 cells, in each of the three orientations shown, and then average those three results, and then convert to SI units. (Standard International). I think Americans still use imperial though don't you? In that case, multiply your 1 inch by 25.4 (to get it in millimeters) and then divide by the 5 cells, = 5.08 (or 5.1mm close as, or 5.1).

Adam
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Robo
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« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2005, 10:06:51 AM »

The standard way is to measure 10 cells and use a metric ruler.  When your dealing with .1 mm the human measuring error can play a big part.

From what you said,  you have 5.08.  I wouldn't go bet your house on it though. See above shocked
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asleitch
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« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2005, 10:08:29 AM »

As Robo says, its a bit of a "wooly" technique. Hence taking the average of 3 measurements of 10 cells, rather than 5.

Adam
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2005, 10:58:51 AM »

asleitch,
 Yep that's the way I did it.

Here are the ten across, Right to left downward diagonal, then left to right diagonal, In inches. (Hey it's all I got)

1-31/32
1-15/16
1-31/32

My friend has a micrometer at his shop. Will that help?
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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2005, 11:26:28 AM »

Quote from: Jerrymac
asleitch,
 Yep that's the way I did it.

Here are the ten across, Right to left downward diagonal, then left to right diagonal, In inches. (Hey it's all I got)

1-31/32
1-15/16
1-31/32

My friend has a micrometer at his shop. Will that help?

1-31/32 = 5.0mm
1-15/16 = 4.9mm

As you can see, your dealing with 1/32 over ten cells.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2005, 11:44:59 AM »

So these bees were building around the 5.2 to 4.9 range naturally. Don't know that it proves anything in this thread.
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2005, 12:37:52 PM »

Quote from: Jerrymac
Don't know that it proves anything in this thread.


Especially since you probably don't know where the bees came from.  If they were a swarm from a domesticated (big bee) hive, then this would have been the first regression.

They tend to build the smaller cells in the center of the combs, so depending on which comb (inner or outer) and where in the comb you measures (center vs. edges), your mileage will vary.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2005, 12:50:27 PM »

Well there wasn't much comb there. I have the only two pieces I found. one is 4.5 inches across the top. Hangs down 4.75 in. Tapering downwards. the other is 1.5 in. wide and 3.25 in long pretty consistant width until the last inch then taper or rather rounded bottom.

The first measurements were from the small piece and the second from the larger piece.

Off topic question; How far will bees go when swarming before they stop and let the scouts seek shelter?
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