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Author Topic: Saftey warning signs or not?  (Read 6465 times)

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2008, 08:46:01 AM »
I would put up nothing, the bees don't have a GPS and recording system when they leave the hive and how is anyone going to prove the sting is from one of your bees, will they keep the bee and have it and your queen tested for DNA.
 as i've said before, why rock the boat. if they get stung by a non african bee away from the hive, they probably deserved it.

Two things:

Unlike criminal court, in civil court, the plaintiff only has to have 51% likelihood that your actions led to their loss or injury... they don't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  The fact that you have hives nearby puts that likelihood well over 51%...

Second, they don't have to sue you to cause you all kinds of problems, either.  They can lobby your county board to ban beekeeping in the county. 

Why not act with more responsibility than irresponsibility?  Not acting responsibly will always cause you more grief in the end, than acting responsibly will.
didn't know you was an attorney. I could just see them banning bees in our county, what a laugh.do you think they'll put a bounty on them so we can hunt them down in the woods like rabid foxes? get real and stop trying to scare people. we don't need any more regulations. I still stand by what i said. you do what ever you want to.

I'm not, but I have taken a few law classes.

The bottom line though, is why act in an irresponsible way that may result in someone getting stung needlessly?  Beekeeping already has enough enemies, why make another that didn't have to be?  Of course, if you've got 100 acres and your hives are in the middle where people shouldn't be anyway, that's one thing.  But if you've got your hives placed within 30 feet of someone else's property, or a public place, you should act responsibly and post a sign.

Offline kathyp

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2008, 10:39:09 AM »
Quote
But if you've got your hives placed within 30 feet of someone else's property, or a public place, you should act responsibly and post a sign.

gotta disagree.  seems like an invitation for a couple of things.  theft of hives, kids messing in hives, and lawsuits.  better to say nothing.  most people won't notice.

i, too, am lucky that my neighbors love my bees.  better flowers.  better gardens.  one neighbor grows blueberries.  has had bumper crops since i started keeping  :-)

Brits don't get our state system :-).  my sister is constantly trying to explain to her husband about the difference between state and federal stuff. 

that's ok.  i have a good time with him.  he's very green.  i told him i switched to florescent lights and i kind of like them.  he was so excited.  then i told him that the one problem i had was that they took so long to warm up.  "not to worry", i told him...... "i turn them on at noon and they are warmed up and bright by dark".  i thought he'd stroke out over the phone  :evil:
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Offline eri

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2008, 11:18:55 AM »

I CAN cite cases where neighbor's of beekeepers have successfully banned the practice of beekeeping in that county.  Isn't that enough?

EDIT: I did find a case for ya... John Black and Alejandro Mercado were successfully sued for $1,591,000 in compensatory damages and $75,000 punitive damages after the death of Santos Flores, Sr. who died of anaphylactic shock triggered by a bee sting in 1994.  The case was appealed and the defendants lost the appeal in 2003.  This was in Texas.

Flores was hired by Black specifically to move some beehives Black had recently purchased from Wilhelm. Black provided protective equipment but 1) did not specifically warn Flores about the possibility of anaphylactic shock and 2) did not have Flores tested for allergic reaction before hiring him to move bees.

Only Wilhelm appealed. Wilhelm won the appeal since he did not hire (control) Flores.

Further: ... Nor would Wilhelm, as occupier of the premises where the beehives were kept, have owed an independent contractor’s employees a duty to warn them about being stung, since that danger was obvious.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/states/Tex/04-0208.html



On Pleasure
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And to both, bee and flower, the giving and the receiving of pleasure is a need and an ecstasy.
People of Orphalese, be in your pleasures like the flowers and the bees.

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2008, 11:44:13 AM »
Flores was hired by Black specifically to move some beehives Black had recently purchased from Wilhelm. Black provided protective equipment but 1) did not specifically warn Flores about the possibility of anaphylactic shock and 2) did not have Flores tested for allergic reaction before hiring him to move bees.

Only Wilhelm appealed. Wilhelm won the appeal since he did not hire (control) Flores.

Further: ... Nor would Wilhelm, as occupier of the premises where the beehives were kept, have owed an independent contractor’s employees a duty to warn them about being stung, since that danger was obvious.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/states/Tex/04-0208.html


Ah, I didn't see that he had won in the supreme court, only that he had lost in the appellete court.  But either way, the beekeeper still had to pay.  Really though, in such a highly litigous society where McDonalds gets sued successfully for serving hot coffee, hot... and in a society where more than 90% of people haven't even seen a beehive in person, how long do you think it will take for people to start suing beeks for stings?

The more interresting thing about that case, was that even though they were moving honey bees, the guy had gone off into the woods, away from the hives when he got stung several times which means he may not have even been stung by the honey bees.

Offline eri

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2008, 04:40:32 PM »
how long do you think it will take for people to start suing beeks for stings?

When hobbyist beekeepers post danger signs (lions and tigers and bees, oh my!) and buy extra liability insurance and personal injury lawyers find out ($$)  :)
On Pleasure
Kahlil Gibran
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And to both, bee and flower, the giving and the receiving of pleasure is a need and an ecstasy.
People of Orphalese, be in your pleasures like the flowers and the bees.

Offline tlynn

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2008, 10:55:20 PM »
how long do you think it will take for people to start suing beeks for stings?

When hobbyist beekeepers post danger signs (lions and tigers and bees, oh my!) and buy extra liability insurance and personal injury lawyers find out ($$)  :)


Couldn't agree more.

If a landlord in Florida knew or should have known a tenant was harboring a dangerous dog and didn't act to cure the dangerous situation and it bit somebody on the property, the landlord could be liable for damages.  Then again, in Florida a "bad dog" sign reduces liability of a property owner if his dog bites someone.  Could a bee warning sign reduce liability or could it be an acknowledgment that the beekeeper knows he has a dangerous situation?  I can't find any case law in Florida, at least, that addresses the question.  So I'd imagine it's anybody's guess.

All in all, I'd say putting up a "Danger - bees" sign will do nothing but invite problems where none existed.  Imagine the neighbor working in the garden and getting tagged by a yellow jacket while digging  in the dirt.  She then remembers your bee sign and immediately assumes it was one of your bees.  If she didn't know about your bees she would rightly chalk the experience up to the hazards of being outdoors.

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2008, 01:00:55 AM »
Having been a cop, from that perspective, I post signs that read "Warning, Bee Hives." 

My bee hives are at least 75 feet from the closest property line yet if some tresspasser where to get stung while crossing my property there is still a liability under civil law.  The fact that I not only have a fence around my property plus signage (an additional fence around the bees is in the future) means that I have taken reasonable care to warn and advise everyone of the potential danger.  The fences make it possible for me to counter sue for tresspass (further putting liability on the person stung and puts forth the argument the person was stung while committing a criminal offense) where not having them would indicate access was permissable.

Laws can be complex things to wade through which is why lawyers charge so much.
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Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2008, 09:36:14 AM »
To those of you who don't want to put up signs... if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?

Offline eri

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On Pleasure
Kahlil Gibran
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And to both, bee and flower, the giving and the receiving of pleasure is a need and an ecstasy.
People of Orphalese, be in your pleasures like the flowers and the bees.

Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2008, 10:26:07 AM »
How many states have a purple post law?

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.007.00.000030.00.htm#30.05.00

.........(D)  the placement of identifying purple paint
marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks
are:
            (i)  vertical lines of not less than eight
inches in length and not less than one inch in width;
            (ii)  placed so that the bottom of the mark
is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet
from the ground;  and.............
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2008, 10:26:41 AM »
Quote
if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?

ok, i'm pretty sure that we can chalk that question up to lack of coffee!

want to try again?
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline kathyp

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2008, 10:28:34 AM »
Quote
How many states have a purple post law?

that's pretty cool.  i think i may have to move to TX  :-D
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2008, 11:18:12 AM »
Quote
if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?

ok, i'm pretty sure that we can chalk that question up to lack of coffee!

want to try again?

Not really.  It was pointing out that the message you send when doing things in secret is that they are NOT ok.  That is the message you send the rest of the community and it helps reinforce the fears that the media has instilled in people.

Offline dpence

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2008, 11:35:12 AM »
I have warning signs indicating a " Working Honey Bee Yard " for stupid people who don't know what 15 hives and thousands of Bees flying about look like.    :-D

You have some of those people in your neighborhood too?  :shock: :evil: :-D


Offline kathyp

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2008, 11:45:33 AM »
Quote
was pointing out that the message you send when doing things in secret is that they are NOT ok

maybe i should put a sign on my car that informs folk that i carry, and if they try to car jack i'll shoot them!  i could put a sign on the front door that says "this house is full of guns. enter at your own risk"? 

IF, god forbid, i lived in the city and kept bees, i might consider a warning....  out here, my two biggest risks either do not read, or do not read english.  for everyone else, there is buckshot.

keeping a thing quiet does not imply guilt.

there are probably places where signs are required?
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline tlynn

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2008, 11:46:57 AM »
To those of you who don't want to put up signs... if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?

Because people have irrational fears, which usually are out of proportion to the risk.  Driving to the airport vs. traveling on a plane, for example.  Mark Twain said something like, "I have known a great many problems in my life, most of which never actually occurred."

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2008, 12:46:42 PM »
maybe i should put a sign on my car that informs folk that i carry, and if they try to car jack i'll shoot them!  i could put a sign on the front door that says "this house is full of guns. enter at your own risk"? 

So... you're saying I shouldn't have those signs up either?

Offline octagon

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2008, 01:01:20 PM »
I figure if some bird brain on this planet don't know that a stack of painted boxes out in a field usually mean that Bees live there, then they derserve to get stung and i'll take my chances in court.
  A few yrs ago i used to see signs in many car windows that said "Baby On Board", it didn't mean a thing except that the person had a baby, no one slowed down or drove any different.
   the same as a Bees on Land sign would do, it just tells the world that they have bees and if you want to get stung, go over and slap the pretty boxes, if you want to watch them come and go, stand back and watch.

Offline utahbeekeeper

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2008, 01:02:32 PM »
<<<<<< inner city, albeit in an atypical section.  Hives not visible from street in spring, summer and fall.  In winter they look like three piles of snow.  Would not ever consider a sign.  I do have a really cool "Whirly Gig" honey bee in front yard along creek tho!  I would try my best to educate should anyone voice concern, which has not happened in 3 years  (sound of knuckles on wood)   LOL to Kathy, my "fellow" veteran.  you rock!!!
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Offline Bee-Bop

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Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2008, 01:37:10 PM »
Missouri has the purple paint law, only trouble is none of the city people know what it means !

I know there are at least two practicing Attorneys that post regularly on this forum, I notice neither have commented on this thread, just some S_ H_ lawyers !

Again;
 Take every thing you see on the net with a grain of salt !

Bee-Bop
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