Changing Brood frames

[willebanks]

howdy all,

read something somewhere that stated that you should swap out old brood frames but I can't remember what the time frame was. I have one hive that is going on it's 3rd year with the same brood frames. Every year I switch boxes ie honey box becomes brood box and visa versa. So far this plan has had no adverse effects. And the bees seem to know what to do....

my question is how often are you suppose to change brood frames?

I plan on doing a split this year with #1 hive this should take at least half the current frames...when do i change the remainders?

Will Banks

[Beth Kirkley]

Oh heck, I've heard of people using really old brood comb. Like 30 years old and such. I would think....... if it's holding up, not all saggy and stretched, and has been in illness free hives, then use it as long as you want.

Beth

[Finman]

I take brood frames away when light does go through any more.

Once I made mistake when I put darks on side and new ones in the middle. All my frames became old at same time!

Now I try to drive to end brood frames and I do not mix them with honey frames.

3 years are too much. In Finland we have short brood season and 3 years is a good period.  But see the color.

When you give new foundations to bees in early summer, it prevents swarming.

[leominsterbeeman]

Finman's light test is go provided that you aren't using plastic frames.  

I've heard of people using the same frames for eons, too like Beth.  But what happens is the bees get smaller. because there is a little bit of larva gunk left behind and the cells get smaller.  

One rule of thumb that I have heard that sounds good is to move your darkest frames of comb to the outside  and the lightest to the inside.

Every year remove the outermost frames and add two new ones in the middle - that way every frame is there for 5 years.

[Finman]

One rule of thumb that I have heard that sounds good is to move your darkest frames of comb to the outside  and the lightest to the inside.

Every year remove the outermost frames and add two new ones in the middle - that way every frame is there for 5 years.

OH NO. Every year you must new whole box to be build.

If frame is black and  there is pollen inside, I put the frame in the middle of larva frames.  Bees eat pollen off. Then I lift the brood frame to super above the exluder. Pollen is off, and I can take old frame away.

 When you put old frame outermoust, bees fill it with valuable pollen and you must leave it in the hive. And again, pollen must be near brood at spring.

Many in Finland ask, what they do when they have pollen in old frames. Do bees eat pollen outside. - No they don't eat.

[Beth Kirkley]

I believe I've also heard that you should put old brood frames on the outside. I chose not to do that though, because like is mentioned, the bees use it for different food storage. To me it just looks nasty. Especially if it's honey they've stored in these brown/black cells. I then see it as "unharvestable" honey.
I've only been a beekeeper for about 18 months, so I have little personal experience. Of course I have some personal experience, as to the look of brood comb and the choices I make. But I haven't had to toss out brood comb yet because of age.
I personally try to place any comb that's been used as brood comb into the middle of either brood box. I'll then put fresh frames on the outside. They build fresh comb, store some honey in it, and the honey looks "clean and nice". I have accidentally put brood comb on the outside, not thinking, and when they stored honey in it I realized I'm made a bad choice.

That's my take,
Beth

[TwT]

i found this from another site:


The cells in old comb often appear smaller than they really are... The cell rims are thicker in axial depth and have a higher wax to pollen ratio than newer comb. The mouths of the cellrim are often more truly circular in old comb whereas in new comb the shape is a hexagon with rounded corners.

I once, (1989 or 90), came accross some combs that had been in continuous use for 22 years, the bees were healthy, fairly dark coloured, nice temper. The combs were solidly black, but smelled sweet. I persuaded the owner to let me cut a chunk from the centre of the most central brood comb, as luck would have it there were only eggs and young larva in that position. I used a very sharp pocket knife, but the cutting was very difficult with a great deal of tearing rather than clean cutting. When I got the sample back to my factory I put it in the fridge alongside the milk, temperature 3 or 4 deg C, I cut many cross sections using various blades, (I had to re-cool it several times as well), with varying degrees of success... The mid rib was 6mm thick but the cell walls were no different to fresh cells although the bottoms of the cells were 'bullet shaped'. You could see where the bees had chewed back the cocoons and then sealed over the exposed laminations. I think the bees repeat this process at about 3 or 4 year intervals. I have given old comb to several swarms (I prefer to use foundation but sometimes needs must...) The results were about a 50/50 split with some combs used straight away and others chewed up and fresh walls added.

We now know that we have been providing our bees with oversize foundation for about a century. I feel the so called smaller bees are merely natures attempt to redress the balance. And that if comb were to be kept in use for a long time a stable situation would occur whereby the cell walls would be chewed down and replaced on a regular basis.

[Finman]

i found this from another site:


The cells in old comb often appear smaller than they really are... The cell rims are thicker in axial depth and have a higher wax to pollen ratio than newer comb.

Yeah! I had 30 years old combs in honey supers, but during few years I renewed them all. Brood combs I use about 3 years. I change one box per hive every year.  I do not let bees to raise larvas in supers.

We now know that we have been providing our bees with oversize foundation for about a century. I feel the so called smaller bees are merely natures attempt to redress the balance. And that if comb were to be kept in use for a long time a stable situation would occur whereby the cell walls would be chewed down and replaced on a regular basis.

That kind of writing is partly dreams. What we have done during 100 years, cannot be wrong.  It is now studied that tight comb help to Africanized bee to kill varroa mites, but if bee race is not capable to protect itself against varroa, little combs do not help hive.

Alot of dreams

[beesharp]

Every year I switch boxes ie honey box becomes brood box and visa versa. So far this plan has had no adverse effects.

Be careful to ensure you're not using boxes that have had mite strips in them for honey supers! I think what you're implying is swapping boxes/brood chambers for swarm control.

Jim