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Author Topic: I'm going foundationless  (Read 2836 times)
Mklangelo
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« on: July 28, 2008, 07:32:33 AM »

I read on MB's site that a Popsicle sticks will do for a guide.  It seems easier than beveling the top bar. 

So two Popsicle sticks, placed vertically and evenly spaced and it's just that simple?
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 07:40:08 AM »

So two Popsicle sticks, placed vertically and evenly spaced and it's just that simple?

If it where just that simple, don't you think all the commercial beeks would be doing it?  Everything seems oh so easy on paper Wink
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Mklangelo
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 07:42:54 AM »

So that isn't the method?
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2008, 07:52:10 AM »

That's one of the methods.  I prefer strips of coroplast signs.  They fit perfectly in the groove and one staple holds them.  No messing with glue and things falling/breaking off.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,13296.msg93462.html#msg93462


Setting up the foundationless frames is the easy part,   getting them to draw comb consistently is the challenge.
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 08:58:19 AM »

i'm not quite as sold on it as i was.  worked fine in some hives.  others made a mess.  i'm still working out the kinks, but i don't think i'll do any supers next year that are completely foundationless.  at the end of this year when i really go through the hives, i'll see how they ended up.
at this point, the cutouts seem to have made a mess of things.  the swarms did fairly well.  other hives-mixed results.  that was with wax starter strips.
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2008, 10:13:59 AM »

You have to make sure starter strips are well secured.  They will start building on the strip instead of attaching to the wood.  If it slips, you have an instant mess.  That's why I prefer beveled top bars or solidly attached wood strips.  Also, like any attempt to draw wax, it works best in a flow or heavy feeding.  Give them too much time and they get creative, even with foundation.
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Mklangelo
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2008, 04:41:29 PM »

Hmm...   Thanks for the help everyone. 
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2008, 11:30:49 PM »

I have tryed it ,,   boy do the girls get creative ...   I might keep one hive
foundationless ,, just for that reason  .....    they do things there way , with no regard to what you want ...  not saying that they care what you want anyway  ....    but this year I made up my mind that Im going to try things and see what goes ...   Bees are my way of relaxing,,, my wife is happy er now that I found a way to relaxe  so Im no longer going to worry if they turn out to bee a mess like they did this year ,,,,  Im going to just have fun ,, and having a surprise when I open the hive will just make it more interesting and more fun ... all I want is to get them to winter ,, I owe them that much for the fun and relaxation  I get with them
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2008, 11:34:50 PM »

You have to make sure starter strips are well secured.  They will start building on the strip instead of attaching to the wood.  If it slips, you have an instant mess.  That's why I prefer beveled top bars or solidly attached wood strips.  Also, like any attempt to draw wax, it works best in a flow or heavy feeding.  Give them too much time and they get creative, even with foundation.

You got it.  They will start on the lower edge of the starter strip, even if it's wax, and then fill between that the bottom of top bar after the frame is partly drawn out.  That is one of the reasons the green comb bends so easy if it's tipped.  You'll often find the bees starting in several places at once along the starter strip, looks like leaves on a branch until they are joined up.
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2008, 03:09:40 AM »


You'll often find the bees starting in several places at once along the starter strip, looks like leaves on a branch until they are joined up.

Ah, so is that what I saw? I placed a medium on top of two deeps with two frames of wax foundation. They are drawing the foundation but I noticed on the remaining foundationless frames there were small clusters of bees on the starter strips, maybe a half dozen bees in a half dozen clusters evenly spaced on the strips.
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 08:36:01 AM »

So two Popsicle sticks, placed vertically and evenly spaced and it's just that simple?

If it where just that simple, don't you think all the commercial beeks would be doing it?  Everything seems oh so easy on paper Wink

I guess I got lucky.
I placed five foundationless frames(with posicle sticks) in each of my two strong hives, in the middle of spring.
They have completely filled them.
I was absolutely amazed!
It was cool to watch their progress.
Now, I need to learn how to insert the wires!
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2008, 08:48:24 AM »


Now, I need to learn how to insert the wires!

Too late for that,  you need to wire the frames before they draw the comb.  They will build the comb right around the wire.  But I would highly recommend using wire on any future frames, though others will disagree.
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Eshu
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 05:51:29 PM »

But I would highly recommend using wire on any future frames, though others will disagree.

O.K. I will bite...  ...and disagree.  For medium frames (what I use), I don't see any great benefit to wiring.  The comb is always somewhat fragile when first drawn.  After a while, it is plenty strong.  The wires are just another thing for the bees to get creative with IMO.  Cheers!
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2008, 06:43:55 PM »

You can go with wax starter strips which get melted into the groove in the top of the frames.  This is what I have been doing and it works out really well. No need to put wire in as once the wax combs get drawn out top to bottom, they are extremely strong.

I have found that the bees will draw out the combs perfectly straight, when placed between 2 brood frames. When I placed them in for honey supers and that is what the bees used them for, the combs became very fat with honey and I had to remove one frame (9 instead of 10), but I do not care about this. I probably will do crush and strain anyway with my honey supers, so I do not care if the combs end up very fat.

Annette
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2008, 06:47:03 PM »

i don't use wired foundation.  the key is to make sure it is in straight and well anchored or it can sag in heat.  since i have so much bees wax, i have been anchoring mine in with melted wax as an extra precaution.  it has worked well so far and takes very little time.  i like not having the wires.  it makes it easy to cut out bits if i have messy comb, or some that is stored gets damaged.
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2008, 07:25:28 PM »

Kathy & Annette,
What do you use to drip the wax into the grove? I am at the point of doing that now, and wondering what to use to drip the wax in with? Pics would be great.
Thanks I owe you.
F
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2008, 08:39:13 PM »

What do you use to drip the wax into the grove?

Dadant (and I'm sure others) sell what's called a wax tube fastener.  Dadant has a picture and description online, search for item #M00778.  Personally if I'm fastening wax in that fashion I just use a homemade ladle.  It's a spoon (bigger than a tablespoon) I bent so it has a "spout" on the side and wrapped a bunch of tape on the handle for a cooler grip.  Start slow and expect to make a few spills.

Has anyone tried using woodglue to fasten rather than wax?  The foundation has lots of impressions in it so I'd think it would hold.  If I don't hear any big negatives I just may try it next time.
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annette
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2008, 10:46:33 PM »

Kathy & Annette,
What do you use to drip the wax into the grove? I am at the point of doing that now, and wondering what to use to drip the wax in with? Pics would be great.
Thanks I owe you.
F


I purchased a nifty little device called a "Wax Tube fastener" from Dadant and Sons. Just a few dollars. Followed this video.

 http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-to-use-wax-tube-fastener_26.html

She has a wonderful video and I just followed it exactly.

Annette
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2008, 10:43:59 AM »

i got a glass syringe from ebay.  probably about the same price as the fastener, but i thought it would be fun smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2008, 03:51:53 PM »

10-4, thanks I will see what I can put together. Let you know how it goes.
F
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2008, 06:54:31 PM »

Actually the popscicle sticks run horizontally.

I've seen plenty of messed up foundation that was misdrawn, or it fell out and caused them to build wild comb.  I've seen more messed up comb from plastic foundation than I have from foundationless.
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« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2008, 05:44:23 AM »

hi
   I use   match sticks put my strip of foundation in than push the match stick in the grove beside the foundation  .works grate getthe match sticks from hobby shop. your frames might be a bit different over there. they hold  tight never had any drop out .
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« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2008, 11:05:34 AM »

Micheal, thank you so much for posting the sticks go horizontal, that is how I placed mine and the whole time reading this thread I am thinking I am an idiot. Seems to be working great, but I am thinking "I hope that nobody sees my sticks and thinks I am an idiot" Not that I am not an idiot mind you, just don't want anyone to think that. HAHAHA. Anyway, I have a medium that I have wanted to use for chunk comb honey and so just open medium frames with sticks layed in the groove horitotal...
Thanks for all the help and advice.
F
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« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2008, 02:19:53 PM »

Hey Frantz could you post a pic of your frames with the stick's I am putting together frame's and need help.
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