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Author Topic: If this doesn't make you mad...  (Read 8194 times)
Jerrymac
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« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2008, 10:45:55 AM »

First off... What other countries?

Second.... Why is it every time something is being discussed "other countries" are brought up. Other countries are not like the USA. Other countries pay more for gas. So what? Other countries outlaw guns and crime is down. So what? Other countries have no gun laws and have wars. So what?

Things work different here than other places.
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2008, 11:14:08 AM »

you can start with the Netherlands.  their easing of drug laws had some nasty unintended consequences.

ok...in what way is this country different.  why do you think it would work better here to legalize drugs?

other countries are not like the US.  still, it would be foolish not to look to things already tried, and not intentionally repeat things that are proven not to work.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2008, 11:33:52 AM »

This seems to conflict with what you claim.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm
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« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2008, 03:18:23 PM »

If you legalize drugs, the price goes way down. There wouldn't be any money to be made. At least not enough to risk your life over. There would be no drug wars. There wouldn't be shoot outs with the cops, or high speed chases from the cops. There wouldn't be the need for a lot of the crime because more people could afford to buy the stuff and not have to steal to support their habit.

More addicts would be willing to seek help knowing there is no jail time should they be found out. More addicts would be out in the open and more people (family members) would know they need help. Be pretty much the same as alcohol.

Yup, Your point was actually proven with prohibition...

As far as where I draw the line with wreckless driving, I consider bucking the norm wreckless, as in driving faster or slower than the flow of traffic, but driving with the flow of traffic, even if that's 10mph over the limit, isn't wreckless.  Needless swerving or braking would also be considered wreckless, as would running stop lights and signs in traffic (but not at 2am when no one else is around and the light has stayed red for more than 10 minutes).  Those limits are often wreckless in an of themselves.  How many speed traps can you think of that would be downright dangerous for drivers to slow down that much that fast.  There's one around here that goes from 65 to 35 in the space of about a hundred yards around a bend in the road.  If people actually slammed on their brakes hard enough to obey the speed limits, it would cause all kinds of wrecks. 

As far as people walking around high in public, well that's what the regulation is for.  You can regulate that hardcore narcotics must be done in clinics under supervision.  I probably wouldn't do that with pot, since I've never heard of anyone holding up a convenience store while on pot... but definately for heroin, coke, pcp, meth, etc.  You get the idea.
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Keith13
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« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2008, 04:24:52 PM »

If you legalize drugs, the price goes way down. There wouldn't be any money to be made. At least not enough to risk your life over. There would be no drug wars. There wouldn't be shoot outs with the cops, or high speed chases from the cops. There wouldn't be the need for a lot of the crime because more people could afford to buy the stuff and not have to steal to support their habit.

More addicts would be willing to seek help knowing there is no jail time should they be found out. More addicts would be out in the open and more people (family members) would know they need help. Be pretty much the same as alcohol.

Yup, Your point was actually proven with prohibition...

As far as where I draw the line with wreckless driving, I consider bucking the norm wreckless, as in driving faster or slower than the flow of traffic, but driving with the flow of traffic, even if that's 10mph over the limit, isn't wreckless.  Needless swerving or braking would also be considered wreckless, as would running stop lights and signs in traffic (but not at 2am when no one else is around and the light has stayed red for more than 10 minutes).  Those limits are often wreckless in an of themselves.  How many speed traps can you think of that would be downright dangerous for drivers to slow down that much that fast.  There's one around here that goes from 65 to 35 in the space of about a hundred yards around a bend in the road.  If people actually slammed on their brakes hard enough to obey the speed limits, it would cause all kinds of wrecks. 

As far as people walking around high in public, well that's what the regulation is for.  You can regulate that hardcore narcotics must be done in clinics under supervision.  I probably wouldn't do that with pot, since I've never heard of anyone holding up a convenience store while on pot... but definately for heroin, coke, pcp, meth, etc.  You get the idea.

You ever hear of an 18 year old kid stoned on pot falling asleep at the wheel and driving off the road, that I agree would be a good thing the bad thing about it was a Louisiana State Trooper was standing on the side of the road writing a ticket he never saw the truck driven by the kid until it crushed him between the two vehicles.

Robbing convenience stores we hear about people getting arrested all the time for armed robbery and simple possseion of marijuana seems to me they go hand in hand

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2008, 07:05:13 PM »

had to go ride my horse for a bit.  we needed some mountain time!  smiley

jerrymac, in the netherlands they have pulled back from their drug tolerance.  towns have run the coffee shops out.  laws have been passed to keep them away from schools.  there has been an increase in the trafficking of hard drugs to and through the country.  other counties have experimented in having designated "safe" shoot up sites.  this has also been re-evaluated in most counties, although i thing germany still does it.

the end result of drug use, even regular use of the so called soft drugs, is the destruction of individual productivity.  if an individual is not productive, they do not support family or society, never mind themselves. 

what about alcohol?  i can only give you my observations.  i have watched college kids and sailors drink every night and get up and do their job the next day.  i have watched college kids and (back in the day) sailors smoke pot every night and drop out, or be unreliable.  for whatever reason, pot crushes ambition.

now....if you are my age, and wish to light up....go for it.  by this age, you should be able to make an informed decision both about effect and consequences.  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2008, 10:17:00 PM »

You ever hear of an 18 year old kid stoned on pot falling asleep at the wheel and driving off the road, that I agree would be a good thing the bad thing about it was a Louisiana State Trooper was standing on the side of the road writing a ticket he never saw the truck driven by the kid until it crushed him between the two vehicles.

Driving under the influence of anything would still be illegal though... so there's no point in making it double-illegal by banning the substance itself.  Just like with Alcohol.  Legal to have, illegal to use while driving.  Yes, there are plenty of alcohol related deaths every year on the highways, but if we aren't filling the jails with people who have committed no other crimes than simple posession (I have no problems with locking up dealers under our current system, since they are also guilty of the very real crime of tax evasion)... they can be a lot tougher on DUI convictions. 
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reinbeau
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« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2008, 07:56:25 AM »

My experience with both potheads and drunks tells me the drunks are far worse off.  Pretending booze is any better than pot is ridiculous.  They're both no good for you.  Having been married to a drunk (who also smoked pot) and given up booze when he finally did (not that it saved the marriage) I was constantly amazed at the attitude towards me.  "Ann, now that he's gone, you can have a beer!  You can drink!"  I don't want to.  I really dislike alcohol.  My parents were both heavy drinkers/drunks, what went on in my house when growing up was just plain sad, mostly as a result of drinking.  The worst part of his pot smoking was how much it cost, it didn't keep him from working or make him any lazier than he ever was  Undecided

We actually had a friend ask us why we would bother going on a cruise, because we didn't drink.  Ya can't have fun without a beer in your hand, ya know!  rolleyes 

I've had more fun watching drunks than they'll ever know  evil

Alcohol in this society isn't just socially accepted, it's socially expected.  I've got no time for drinking, it's ruined way too many parts of my life to want to have it back in.  It's sad that so many want to get away from their reality by altering it with a drug of some sort.
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2008, 07:59:08 AM »

Well said.
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JP
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« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2008, 09:04:22 AM »

Some people just like to drink, it apparently relaxes their nerves, I have an uncle, his immediate family (he's an uncle by marriage) are scotch drinkers, including himself, they can really put it down, that same hardcore stuff they drink would probably peel the skin right from me.

I've known people who were at times belligerent from smoking too much pot, I think it has long term effects whether people want to admit it or not, and let's not forget how it impairs your decision making ability at the wheel.

Life to me is just plain more fulfilling when sober, don't need anything really to help me experience life better, of course I'm also one of those types that doesn't get bored, ever.


...JP
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kathyp
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« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2008, 09:05:57 AM »

reinbeau, you are right about the abuse of alcohol.  guess my point was that you can have a beer or drink every night without the same adverse effect that smoking pot every night would have.  

my husband comes home and over the course of the night has a beer or two.  i don't  notice any difference in him.  i'm pretty sure the same would not be true if he smoked a joint every night.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2008, 10:10:00 AM »

I've known people who were at times belligerent from smoking too much pot, I think it has long term effects whether people want to admit it or not, and let's not forget how it impairs your decision making ability at the wheel.

Life to me is just plain more fulfilling when sober, don't need anything really to help me experience life better, of course I'm also one of those types that doesn't get bored, ever.

So does smoking... and I agree with your latter statement... life is better without all that stuff.

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reinbeau
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« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2008, 11:37:12 AM »

Some people can come home, smoke a bone, and that's it, that's their unwind.  Some people come home and have a beer.  Those people for the most part aren't having problems.  It's the ones that come home and smoke continuously, or drink continuously, day in and day out, that have the problems.  So it isn't really the medium used, it's the desire to blot out reality, that descends into addiction.  They're all drugs. 

Now back a little to the point.  It's been proven that making it illegal doesn't stop people from doing it.  We gave up on the alcohol, regulate it, tax it, make some money on it, legally, and only the abusers end up in jail.  Same thing should be done with pot.  No, I'm not advocating legalizing heroin or other hard drugs, but the way things are going with the Oxi's and all the other prescription drugs, what's the point?  Anyone can get whatever they want, and there's such a market, people are making huge money, mainly because it's a black market and illegal.  So police and other law officials waste tons of time and money trying to control what people themselves won't, and it just doesn't work. 

I don't know the answer.  I just really do know that if people felt happier and more fulfilled without the drugs we'd have fewer problems with them.  But isn't that the whole point of life, finding happiness, or at least contentment.....
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kathyp
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« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2008, 11:48:10 AM »

 
Quote
been proven that making it illegal doesn't stop people from doing it

this might be true of some harder drugs.  they show positive for 72 hours max for most of them.  pot will show for 30+ days.  if you know your job is on the line,  you don't do it.  the effects of pot smoking last much longer.  someone who smokes pot every night will still show a level of impairment in the morning.  someone who has a beer, will not. 

 i don't have a horse in this race.  i have had my day with both drugs and alcohol.  still wouldn't mind taking 'that trip', once if i knew i'd come back from it intact.

my point is that you can not equate the effects of the recreational pot use with the effects of recreational alcohol use. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2008, 12:46:57 PM »

this might be true of some harder drugs.  they show positive for 72 hours max for most of them.  pot will show for 30+ days.  if you know your job is on the line,  you don't do it.  the effects of pot smoking last much longer.  someone who smokes pot every night will still show a level of impairment in the morning.  someone who has a beer, will not.

True enough about the alcohol not showing up, but making pot legal would not mean your job is safe if you do it.  Workplaces would have just as much right to fire you (or not hire you) for using pot if it were legal, as they do now.  It falls under the category of being able to fire you for off the job behavior because it reflects back on them.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2008, 06:56:29 PM »

Quote
been proven that making it illegal doesn't stop people from doing it

this might be true of some harder drugs.  they show positive for 72 hours max for most of them.  pot will show for 30+ days.  if you know your job is on the line,  you don't do it.  the effects of pot smoking last much longer.  someone who smokes pot every night will still show a level of impairment in the morning.  someone who has a beer, will not. 
Failing a drug test and losing your job is the incentive here, not breaking a law.  And around here, truck drivers who fail the drug test can test positive for alcohol - and if they do, they lose their job.  True story, I personally know of two who got hammered the night before, got in late, showed up to work, blew above .08 and were terminated.  At different companies

Quote
my point is that you can not equate the effects of the recreational pot use with the effects of recreational alcohol use. 
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I absolutely can equate the two due to my own personal experience.  Neither one is any better than the other, maybe booze is a little worse, only because it is so expected, people think there are allowances for it.  There shouldn't be.
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Keith13
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« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2008, 08:13:15 PM »

Quote
been proven that making it illegal doesn't stop people from doing it

this might be true of some harder drugs.  they show positive for 72 hours max for most of them.  pot will show for 30+ days.  if you know your job is on the line,  you don't do it.  the effects of pot smoking last much longer.  someone who smokes pot every night will still show a level of impairment in the morning.  someone who has a beer, will not. 
Failing a drug test and losing your job is the incentive here, not breaking a law.  And around here, truck drivers who fail the drug test can test positive for alcohol - and if they do, they lose their job.  True story, I personally know of two who got hammered the night before, got in late, showed up to work, blew above .08 and were terminated.  At different companies

Quote
my point is that you can not equate the effects of the recreational pot use with the effects of recreational alcohol use. 
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I absolutely can equate the two due to my own personal experience.  Neither one is any better than the other, maybe booze is a little worse, only because it is so expected, people think there are allowances for it.  There shouldn't be.

If a truck driver showed up to work inebriated they should have been fired on the spot! but if he drank the night before slept for 8 hrs and went to work who cares
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reinbeau
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« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2008, 05:14:28 PM »

Go to bed at 1 am, get up for a 6 am start - you'll still test positive for booze if you tied one on.  That's what happened.  Late night, early start, the hangover hadn't begun yet.
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