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Author Topic: If this doesn't make you mad...  (Read 7781 times)
SgtMaj
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« on: July 12, 2008, 04:30:43 AM »

So I'm catching up on the news tonight, and I come across an article from a respected news source about how cops in my state are being given the date rape drug Versed to use on prisoners.  This is absolutely asinine!  The excuse they have is that it's used to subdue unruly prisoners, but it can't be administered until a person is already subdued, so that's a bunch of bunk.  I am absolutely outraged that such a thing could happen in this country.  You can read the story for yourself here: http://www.wsmv.com/news/16844880/detail.html

You can bet I'm going to give my elected representatives a piece of my mind first thing in the morning...
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2008, 06:30:02 PM »

versed is a short acting benzodiazepine.  it might be used as a date rape drug, but it has other, legitimate uses.  one of which is to subdue anxious and belligerent patients/subjects.  there is a difference between subduing someone by sitting on them, and subduing them by giving them something that makes sitting on them unnecessary.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
JP
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2008, 06:44:41 PM »

versed is a short acting benzodiazepine.  it might be used as a date rape drug, but it has other, legitimate uses.  one of which is to subdue anxious and belligerent patients/subjects.  there is a difference between subduing someone by sitting on them, and subduing them by giving them something that makes sitting on them unnecessary.

You know, the thing is this, I like police officers, and I like game wardens, the people I worry about are those types that have a problem with enforcement, probably because they are trouble in the first place.

I'm sorry but criminals shouldn't have more rights than victims or society, you can't behave, you get the shot.

Now I understand if someone's acting up because of a medical condition but in the instance in this article I believe the shot saved that guy's life.


...JP
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2008, 08:46:52 PM »

JP, the problem is, it's not likely they'll only use it on criminals... There is nothing stopping them from using it to rape your wife or daughter if they happen to pull up next to her at a red light and decide that she's sufficiently attractive.
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JP
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2008, 10:44:25 PM »

JP, the problem is, it's not likely they'll only use it on criminals... There is nothing stopping them from using it to rape your wife or daughter if they happen to pull up next to her at a red light and decide that she's sufficiently attractive.

So you're talking about the bad cops, boy, I just didn't think of that, and they could do as they please and the poor gals can't remember a thing, dang, you got a very good point there.


...JP
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2008, 11:11:12 PM »

Exactly.  Sure, most cops are probably good, but there was a woman not all that far from here that was raped by a cop during a traffic stop last year...

... and then there's cops like my neighbor who pleaded guilty last year to 5 counts of armed robbery after being caught in the act.

99% might be good, but it only takes 1 bad one...

and there are so many alternatives to this, they could, for example, not give those drugs to the cops to administer, and only allow medical professionals to administer them, or they could use other drugs that don't cause amnesia...
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 10:24:45 AM »

Quote
Exactly.  Sure, most cops are probably good, but there was a woman not all that far from here that was raped by a cop during a traffic stop last year...

... and then there's cops like my neighbor who pleaded guilty last year to 5 counts of armed robbery after being caught in the act.

just as in the military there are bone heads that make us all look bad.  they are not representative of the force as a whole.  it is important to remember that, and not put in danger the entire force for the fear that one or two might to something bad.

Quote
and there are so many alternatives to this, they could, for example, not give those drugs to the cops to administer, and only allow medical professionals to administer them, or they could use other drugs that don't cause amnesia...


as a former medical type, and having worked on the psych ward, i can tell you that i am not getting near anyone who is throwing a hissy fit.  that's what the cops do. 

people complained that cops were shooting to many people.  they they complained that they were tazing to many people.  maybe if they just talked really, really nicely to these folks.....?

amnesia...often temporary...is a side effect of this drug, and many others.  you probably know people on this same class of drugs.  Xanax and Valium fall into the same category.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2008, 05:54:12 PM »

Aren't there drugs that would have the same calming effect without the memory loss though?
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2008, 06:39:01 PM »

  Tough call.....
 But, having been a "Semi-Pro Arrestee", when younger, I feel the cops are generally( remember, I mean most of the time) justified in whatever actions they take to chill out an individual, I've taken really hard "Lickins" by cops but I know I ALWAYS had them coming. You're right about there being some bad cops...I'm surprised there arent any more bad cops than there are, especially having to deal with some of the people that they do have to deal with, including the newer generation who have little respect for authority figures This is kind of like dealing with mechanics, or sales people, or Drs,  or lawyers,.....or anybody for that matter..Theres always somebody who some people will feel are doing something wrong, and with good reason(whatever reason it may be)...Cops are outnumbered, outgunned, and underpaid for what they have to do. For me, its no surprise that police have turned to resorts like "Roofies". Unfortunately, you have made a good point about something like a roofie being put in the wrong hands, and perhaps being used in the scenarios you've presented. Then again, they have to get away with doing something to protect themselves and others.
The bad part is, no matter what the cops do that we dont agree with, these actions still wont deter criminals from doing bad.
One quick note......Death penalty,.......Lots of ways to look at this....One major reason I'm against it is because I dont want to be the one to pull the switch, so, because of this I feel like I dont have a say in is it or isnt it right...I guess thats why in the olden days the hangman always wore a bag over their head.

Well, thats all I know about that.

your friend,
john
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JP
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2008, 06:44:53 PM »

Sorry to disagree, but I believe in the death penalty. Sorry, but scum needs to be treated like scum, that's why crime is what it is, criminals have too many rights and society is breeding career criminals, its downright scary!


...JP
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2008, 07:56:16 PM »

right with you JP.  extreme behavior requires extreme punishment.  if punishment truly did fit the crime, perhaps fewer people would get to the point of committing capital crimes.  by the time someone is caught having committed a death penalty offense, killing them once is not punishment enough, but it's all we have.....or all we are allowed to do.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2008, 08:41:53 PM »

I was bummed about the recent defeat of the "child rape death penalty" case. If you rape a child it should be a capital offense. I cannot believe that should even be a question. Of course it would not matter much in my situation. If it was one of my kids or even a kid somewhere near me I would not need a court system to decide if capitol punishment was appropriate. I would either be leading the mob, or watching their back while justice was served. Don't get me wrong innocent until proven guilty. There has been three cases recently here in utah of a small child 7-12 yrs old taken raped and killed. They caught the guys who did it, those men have admitted to doing it, and we are all sitting around waiting to decide what to do.  I am so tired of this country turning its back on the morals and justice it was founded on.
Maybe those beautiful children would still be alive if when the chance presented it self, those guys thought just for one quick second that they would be put to death horribly and swiftly if they got caught. Just my 2 cents.
F
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2008, 08:47:13 PM »

I was bummed about the recent defeat of the "child rape death penalty" case. If you rape a child it should be a capital offense. I cannot believe that should even be a question. Of course it would not matter much in my situation. If it was one of my kids or even a kid somewhere near me I would not need a court system to decide if capitol punishment was appropriate. I would either be leading the mob, or watching their back while justice was served. Don't get me wrong innocent until proven guilty. There has been three cases recently here in utah of a small child 7-12 yrs old taken raped and killed. They caught the guys who did it, those men have admitted to doing it, and we are all sitting around waiting to decide what to do.  I am so tired of this country turning its back on the morals and justice it was founded on.
Maybe those beautiful children would still be alive if when the chance presented it self, those guys thought just for one quick second that they would be put to death horribly and swiftly if they got caught. Just my 2 cents.
F

Amen to that brother!!


...JP
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2008, 09:01:23 PM »

 Thats cool JP, theres nothing to be sorry about to me.
I think the hardest part to pulling the switch would be having to watch what the criminals family would have to go through. I think, in most instances, family members usually dont have anything to do with the actions of their relatives. Something that comes to mind that i remember now.....I have problems with my son, I feel are from being raised before I met him(by mom, grampa, gramma...) My mother told me once, "Do your best to not crticize, or give your honest opinion about Janelles son to Janelle..A mother is always going to love their son no matter what". I hear that in my mind after everytime I do this!
 And, of course, you have the victims family to think about...Is it justice, or revenge?..Will it bring closure?
 I just dont know really...Thats why I said what i said about pulling the switch. I sort of think a victims family member should do it,..Then again I think it should be a draw between jury members.If neither can do it, it shouldnt be carried out. Thats a heavy load, huh? I also think it should be carried out at the moment of sentencing...Worry about DNA mistakes later, as we all know there arent that many people who are innocent..So, its jury or family members. If theres a mistake later on down the road, let them feel responsible I just dont like the idea of ME being part of changing the scheme of things, right or wrong.
 Thats why I prefer to tend my own garden..I hate dealing with problems until theyre knocking at my door Undecided

your friend,
john

This is a trip, huh? from roofies to the electric chair!
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JP
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2008, 09:35:10 PM »

Thats cool JP, theres nothing to be sorry about to me.
I think the hardest part to pulling the switch would be having to watch what the criminals family would have to go through. I think, in most instances, family members usually dont have anything to do with the actions of their relatives. Something that comes to mind that i remember now.....I have problems with my son, I feel are from being raised before I met him(by mom, grampa, gramma...) My mother told me once, "Do your best to not crticize, or give your honest opinion about Janelles son to Janelle..A mother is always going to love their son no matter what". I hear that in my mind after everytime I do this!
 And, of course, you have the victims family to think about...Is it justice, or revenge?..Will it bring closure?
 I just dont know really...Thats why I said what i said about pulling the switch. I sort of think a victims family member should do it,..Then again I think it should be a draw between jury members.If neither can do it, it shouldnt be carried out. Thats a heavy load, huh? I also think it should be carried out at the moment of sentencing...Worry about DNA mistakes later, as we all know there arent that many people who are innocent..So, its jury or family members. If theres a mistake later on down the road, let them feel responsible I just dont like the idea of ME being part of changing the scheme of things, right or wrong.
 Thats why I prefer to tend my own garden..I hate dealing with problems until theyre knocking at my door Undecided

your friend,
john

This is a trip, huh? from roofies to the electric chair!

John, like Frantz said above innocent until proven guilty, but at some point you have to draw the line. I believe at some point in our lives we are fully responsible for our actions, lets call it age 24 just to pick a number.

If you off someone you deserve the same, unless its in self defense. If the penalty of death was death, Frantz wouldn't even have to think about taking action, the system would do it for him, but the system is a failure, and its also failing the would be hoodlums as well, because there are no boundaries.

If I KNOW that if I cross that line I'm in deep trouble, I'm not crossing it, you get the picture.



...JP
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2008, 11:20:09 PM »

So nobody is gonna mention all those people that have been convicted and after many years in prison are free because new forms of testing evidence have proven them not guilty? Wonder how many innocent people have been put to death for something they didn't do? Funny how hatred for an action blinds us to what is right.
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2008, 11:31:03 PM »

jerrymac, you have a point...

however, it is job of the  jury to find someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.  it is not about hatred.  it is about doing what the law dictates.  yes, people are innocent and found guilty.  more often, people are guilty and let go for one reason or another.  it is not a perfect system, but it is as near justice as we mortals can come.  what alternative would you suggest?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2008, 11:48:50 PM »

jerrymac, you have a point...

however, it is job of the  jury to find someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.  it is not about hatred.  it is about doing what the law dictates.  yes, people are innocent and found guilty.  more often, people are guilty and let go for one reason or another.  it is not a perfect system, but it is as near justice as we mortals can come.  what alternative would you suggest?

All together now... O.J.

The law is not perfect, it errs both ways because it is applied by people against people.  A jury of peers is still the best and most fair system going despite its flaws.
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2008, 01:51:22 AM »

I read somewhere once that the average time spent in prison per murder is something like 8 days.  It's so low because most crimes go un-solved, and even when they are solved, you still have to prove it in court, and even when you do get a conviction, there's appeal after appeal, and often times the time served is rather minimal because even if they do dole out a stiff sentance, the parole board will let you go after you serve 1/4th of your sentance if you were on good behavior while behind bars.

I took a law class a while back, and as part of the class we had to observe some real cases first-hand.  One of the cases I observed was that of a 19 year old guy who had beaten a 17 yr old girl mostly to death and then left her for dead.  She had to have 17 reconstructive surguries on her face alone.  He spent a grand total of just less than 200 days in jail for it... he even asked the sentancing judge to have the conviction expunged from his record so that he wouldn't have to put it on future job applications.  To the judge's credit, she at least didn't do that.  That girl though, spent more time in the hospital, than he spent in jail.

Violent criminals don't get anywhere near the amount of punishment they deserve in my opinion. 
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2008, 08:45:04 AM »

So nobody is gonna mention all those people that have been convicted and after many years in prison are free because new forms of testing evidence have proving them not guilty? Wonder how many innocent people have been put to death for something they didn't do? Funny how hatred for an action blinds us to what is right.

I don't think I agree with you on this one Okay so they might not get the right guy for the particular crime. but how many times do they instead pick up a fine upstanding person and put him in jail. 9 times out of 10 the guy they pick up wasn't a saint. he wasn't the guy working 12 hour shifts to feed his family or the guy graduating with his 3rd masters degree. no he was the carear criminal in the wrong place at the wrong time. just recently here in Louisiana we had a guy who was "wrongly convicted" of murder well his case was overturned and we even gave him a MILLION DOLLARS for all the trouble we caused this fine upstanding citizen and the five years we stole from him. Oh did I leave out the part where he was already out of prison for 2 counts of murder and five counts of rape plus numerous drug offenses. Can we only imagine where and what he will spend our tax dollars on. So no when I hear of someone being wrongly convicted I take it with a grain of salt for sure. in my opinion if we missed on one crime we probably got him for one he got away with before

Keith
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