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Author Topic: Frames  (Read 6874 times)
Jerrymac
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« on: December 26, 2004, 10:43:14 AM »

I got about 120 frames for Christmas. Now I wonder, do I glue the things or just pop in a few nails?
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Beth Kirkley
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2004, 11:03:51 AM »

You'll definately want to nail them, but I believe most people glue them too. Two things that I've heard help: 1) soak the wood so that it softens, the wood often splits if it's dry, 2) an air nailer makes the nailing go much faster.

I've never put together frames before. This is just info I've read. I always get my frames assembled with the foundation already in it.

Beth
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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2004, 11:28:43 AM »

Quote from: Beth Kirkley
You'll definately want to nail them, but I believe most people glue them too. Two things that I've heard help: 1) soak the wood so that it softens, the wood often splits if it's dry, 2) an air nailer makes the nailing go much faster.

I've never put together frames before. This is just info I've read. I always get my frames assembled with the foundation already in it.

Beth


I have never glued frames. I put only nails. Also wires keep sticks together. Bees build combs and they put their "glue" in every little chink.

Do not put wood in water, because the form of frame is then different and wires will be not any more tight.

I tighten the wires like quitar wires. They must make sound. Then I put electric circuit through the wire and 1000 W electric resistance in the loop. It takes 10 seconds wire to go into wax faundation.

The air in the working room must be over 25C so foundation sleeps evenly on the wires.
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Jay
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2004, 12:44:48 PM »

Well, ask 10 cooks, get 10 answers! cheesy  I would say definitly use both glue and nails! If you use a polyurethane glue like gorilla glue you want to wet the joints, it says this in the glue's instructions. An air nailer does make the nailing go much easier and you get no splitting of the wood because the nail gets injected into the wood instead of driven like a hammer does. If however you don't have air tools, turn the nail around and hit it a couple of times on the point before you use it, to dull the point. This helps with the splitting because the nail crushes the wood as it is driven in and makes a hole for itself. Whereas if you use the nail sharp, it tends to find a path between the grain, and that is usually where the split happens.
If you need a reason to use both, ask beemaster how he felt after his last frame fell apart in his hands, and he didn't have his veil on!
Hope this helps. Cheesy
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2004, 02:05:45 PM »

Quote from: Jay
...because the nail crushes the wood as it is driven in and makes a hole for itself.


I say that it is too delicated ... it is "part optimation". ..  Frames does not get honey from field.

It is easy to everybody find out what is comfobtable  and what suits for you  Cool
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Horns Pure Honey
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2004, 08:05:04 PM »

I have always read use lots of glue, nail, then wipe up the extra glue. bye
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Ryan Horn
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2004, 03:43:07 PM »

I always put the frames side pieces in a 5 gallon pain of water for about 15 miniutes. I also use gorilla glue when I assemble mine. The thing is they are my frames and I will build them as strong as I can. The water is only used so the side bars don't split, they are dried while still in my home made frame jig.
I have use what I consider off brand frames made of wood of unknowen parentage that I had to drill to get a nail into, I stay away from those now.
 Cheesy Al
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2004, 02:38:09 AM »

What is the tree species you use in frames?

Quality of wood makes frame too soft or too hard.

We use Scotch pine (Pinus sylvestris) and pruce Picea abies. Pruce is often too soft and a wire sink easily into the wood.

Scotch pine has twig figures much and such a piece must be discarded, because piece will bend in the point of twig.

I have handled Middle European pruce (German) and it is like balsa, really soft.

If frames are hard wood, they surely will split.

Also if you use too thin wire, it will sink easily into wood.
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2004, 08:00:27 AM »

I recommend the eyelets in the frames for the horz. wires to run thru. I have found I like white pine the best for frames.
 Cheesy Al
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2005, 11:51:12 PM »

Two more questions about frames. Is there a certain amount of space needed between the sides of the frames or should they touch?

Is it OK to use galvanized wire such as is used for electric livestock fences?
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Beth Kirkley
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2005, 12:57:51 AM »

The frames can touch, or have a gap. You wouldn't want a very big gap, because the bees will build alot of bridge comb if the frames are too far apart. But a little space is helpful - it gets the bees building the comb just a fuzz deeper, allowing you to get more honey - also, it helps to have the space when getting out frames. It's just nice to have a little "wiggle, shove, and adjust" space between frames. They get so stuck together, if they're RIGHT next to eachother it makes it harder to get them loose.

But, you know, it's hard to get every single frame just so. Some end up touching - unless you're very particular. I've personally thought about buying some frame spacers. Just haven't bothered with it though. It's all been working out so far - some get gapped, some touch together.

Beth
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Lesli
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2005, 08:08:38 AM »

I nail and glue. I've nailed using a hammer and used a brad nailer--the brad nailer is easier. But if you use a hammer, get a tack hammer--a smaller head makes it easier.

What Finaman says is true--the bees will strengthen the frames with propolis and comb. Still, I like to be careful, and I figure that spinning the frames does put a lot of stress on them. If time isn't an issue, I'd say do both. I've used both Gorilla glue (which requires you to wet one side of the join) and Elmer's wood glue.

For the Gorilla glue, I didn't soak, just had a bowl of water and dipped.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2005, 08:26:08 PM »

No answers for the second question, or was it just over looked?
Is it OK to use galvanized wire, such as is used for electric livestock fences, to wire your frames?
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Beth Kirkley
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« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2005, 12:37:17 AM »

I saw it Jerrymac, but don't know an answer. If you don't get an answer soon, then try posting it as a fresh question (a new post). That might get more attention.

Beth
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2005, 09:44:33 AM »

Yes you can use the galvanized livestock wire. for years before plastic and stainless steel pails and extractors were galvanized.
Electric fence wire though is sure some heavy wire just to support comb that is going to be spun in an extractor.
 Cheesy Al
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2005, 10:15:55 AM »

Yeah, but I have a bunch of it around here.
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2005, 10:20:46 AM »

Quote from: trail twister
Yes you can use the  livestock wire.



Why? ----galvanized means zinc coated.  Acidity of honey will dissolve zinc away.  Livestock wire is thick. How do you get it inside wax foundation? And after that it will be black ferrium something.

Frame wire is not money question. Why don't you use it?

Once I bougt a wire which consist copper. It dissolved and painted 10 mm width combs along wire.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2005, 11:47:38 AM »

So Perhaps I should forget that Idea. Like I said, I have a lot of it around and figure if it worked why bother getting more wire around this place.

How about stainless steel welding wire?
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« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2005, 03:53:11 PM »

Great topic with lots of good advice.

I tend to agree the most with Trail Twister here.

Soaking the side rails is a great point and gorilla glue is great stuff too. I also have imbedded wire for support and took the easy road and just nailed sections, and honestly - you can't go overboard in frame contruction. It is a time verses return issue. But at the very least I always glue the frame pieces, eventhough as Finman said "the bees glue everywhere" there still an invunerable time where the frames are not yet drawn out and when mixing them with older (more built-up frames) you can get to prying in the wrong place and break the newer frames apart.

If you are always dealing with frames the same age and same exposure to the internal workings of the hive, you can fudge a little and NOT go overboard on strengthening the frames, but over the years we are always mixing and matching frames from hive to hive and there is often a trendous amount of propolis to deal with (especially if you don't inspect frequently) so I believe reinforcing the frames with glue and nails is the MINIMUM I would do.

Adding wire support is strictly a "Blow-out" prevention for extracting in cyntrifical spinners - and most motorized ones are built to do a fine job of NOT overly stressing the frames by winding up slowly and winding down slow too - but hand operated spinners can be rough, judging the right speed and working the frames from one direction to the other (not to forget improper load balancing) you can easily get the extractor hopping around and over RPM it and THAT is when you will blow-out the foundation.

I've wired many frames and when you are only dealing with a handful of bee supers to load with new frames, it's no biggy putting massive reinforcement into the frames - ideally, although many will argue that doing all the gluing and wiring is overkill, I still say that ideally if time is not an issue and if you assembly-line the whole process, going all-out is the way to go.

I really suggest glue and nails as a minimum and if you hand-spin the frames, you might think about wire reinforcing too. But it all boils down to how much life you expect to get from your frames. I always like to think that it is a one time investment, but we all know that isn't so. So spending the extra time to give each frame a long life span is worth the effort if you want the biggest bang for your buck.

I have a screen-door on my back porch which is now 8 years old. I put L-brackets in all corners  (inside and out) and I put a heavy wire mesh on the bottom section to keep the neighbors cats from ripping at the screen and also stained and eurathaned the door. My screen door is as sturdy as the day I installed it. My neighbors bought the same door, didn't do anything to reinforce or protect it and it lasted one season, literally sagging to the point that it fell off the hinges. The cost of the door wasn't much, but the labor was a bit time consuming, but I believe I'll get another 5 years out of that door, so it really paid off in the long haul.

I'll add a photo of what soaking can really accomplish to illustrate a point later tonight. I have a wooden hand-crafted puzzle which uses soaking to accomplish a very neat illusion - again, look for the image later once I upload it.

Again, these are just my opinions, we have a lot of very valid opinions on this topic - it comes down to choice and maybe even experimentation - there is nothing wrong with doing one super one-way and another super another, then comparing them down the road. That may be the best of all solutions.
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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2005, 09:44:42 AM »

Cheesy  As I said about the live stock wire it is awful heavy for use in the frames.
 Smiley  The smallest rolles of frame wire don't cost but a bit over $5.00 and will do hundreds of frames. Personally for brood frames (for the 9 5/8" deeps) that are not going to be spun I think the support pins are enough. for the honey Supers (6 5/8") that are going to be spun in a radial extractor I found two wires to be enough. The radial extrator has a varibable speed controll so you can keep the speed down when the comb are just starting. We even did some frames we had set up for cut comb honey but found that due to the flow the comb was thich then thin and thich again, didn't look what we call real pretty.
 Cheesy Al
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