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Author Topic: You don't like hearing Merry Christmas - get over it!  (Read 6476 times)
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« on: December 21, 2004, 04:17:46 PM »

Just a little seasonal commentary.

I listened this morning to WABC-770AM and the topic was a town in North New Jersey where NOT ONLY can't you sing any Christmas songs in public school any more, you can't even play "instrumentals" where the word Christmas is found - honestly, it's getting a little sickning to live a politically correct lifestyle.

As a Federal Employee I've been taught to walk softly on questionable issues of faith, ethnic diversity and other "sensitive issues" but you know, when I'm forced to say HAPPY HOLIDAYS rather than Merry Christmas on Christmas day to a guard at the front gate of our Naval base, a sailor giving part of his life to preserving our country and ALL it's diverse beliefs, then I'm sickened that we are evolving into a society that has not grown in it's freedoms, but opposingly, grown closer to a restrictive society.

If someone sincerely said to me "Happy Hanukkah", I'd thank them sincerely too, not run for the nearest pulpit and shout that my rights have been violated. It makes me sick that the only holidays we can agree on are political ones these days.

If I insult you by saying Merry Christmas, too bad - get over it. If I hurt your feelings or brused your spiritual ego, to freakin' bad. When will the LEFT stop destroying EVERYTHING that they think they CAN destroy? The ACLU can BITE ME and the LEFTISTS of the Country can BITE the ACLU - I'm tired of walking on glass just to prevent "Sensitive Issues" from offending others.

First they say, let's get rid of God in everything except for our Money - Leftists don't mind our money one bit. Then let's take Jesus or Christ out of Christmas, what's next: saying Happy New Year will offend people who had a lousy year or insult Star Trek fans who are worshiping the future possibility of time travel. Again, BITE ME!!!

Whatever your beliefs, enjoy them, celebrate them, rejoice them - don't hide in the corner like a pervert just so that you won't offend others. I laugh when I see Christmas Trees all over our Navy Base, but no crosses are allowed and not even banners saying Merry Christmas are allowed - is there some Faith other than Christian and elsewhen besides Christmas that celebrates with lighting of trees. Of course, you can have a Lighted Tree, but not a Christmas Tree??? And God forbid you have an Angel or other religious topping on the tree.

Stop the Madness people. If you are so offended that your school puts on a Christmas Choir, if you don't want your kids to be in it THEN write a letter excusing them from the Choir - don't start a petition to prevent others from doing so. If you don't like where your tax dollars are going, then move or get your kids in private school or go wherever you think you will be happy - but stop the madness of letting every little thing insult and upset you. Stop turning our courtrooms into places where religion issues are endlessly fought, when you are the ones crying about separation of church and state.

Frankly, I'm sick of fools who can't just let other people be. I don't care what my neighbors do, what they believe, where they shop or what they eat. I don't care who you sleep with, what you smoke or whatever creepy crap you do - as long as I don't have to see it and as long as it doesn't effect me, it's none of my business. I live my life as morally as I can and I sleep good at night: some people can live a dirty life and although I don't agree, it is NOT my job to change the world, only to live my life in a manor that my conscience can allow.

Which "God" you believe in or DON'T believe in is NONE of my BUSINESS. Keep your nose out of mine. If the Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independance and Contitution bother you so much, then EXCILE yourself out of this GOD BLESSED COUNTRY. If having Christ in Christmas or God in our churches offends you, then lock you door, stick your head in your oven and set it for 400f for 45 minutes or until tender. Because you know what, if I can't say Merry Christmas without offending someone, then I don't need to talk to that person in the first place. If all that is left is HAPPY HOLIDAYS, then I'll save my breath, because honestly at that point I really don't wish them a "happy" anything.

Whatever your holidays, charrish them and enjoy them with your families and friends. Enjoy the diverse country we live in and all the free countries of the world and STOP restricting other people's rights and freedoms.

That is why in this forum, you can express any opinions you wish just by keeping it clean and not being purposefully hurtful to others, there are no other rules - otherwise, I don't restrict anyone here from saying anything about anything. If I start CENSORSHIP then baby watch out - because it never stops until NO ONE can say ANYTHING. I'm not a baby sitter and you aren't children. Enjoy each other, learn and share and enjoy lively debate.

So MERRY CHRISTMAS to all that celebrate it and HAPPY WHATEVER to everyone else - I mean that sincerely. I wish you peace, health and joy no matter what your beliefs, and if we can't all agree on that, then these are sad times... Sad, sad times.

God Bless our troops and may EVERY YEAR be better than the last!
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2004, 06:42:16 PM »

It just amazes me how far they strech the seperation of church and state. Actually I'm not sure I have ever read those words in the constitution or bill of rights. Guess I'll have to read it all again.

Anyway the first amendment is telling the government that it can't force a religion on us and can't interfear with our choice of religion and how we celebrate it. I would suspect this would apply to any government worker. BUT the same amendment giving cause for those people to keep all that stuff out of schools also gives us the right to do those things in schools. It doesn't have to be government sponsored or even approved, just the government employees can't stand in the way and stop us from doing it (Well they do but they are going against our rights.) And as you say, no one will be twisting anybody's arms to attend or participate.

How can they put down all this Christian stuff and yet celebrate the holidays? By just calling it something else? Hypocrites.
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2004, 06:42:42 PM »

Thank the Lord! I am so glad you stood up for that. I can still say stuff like that at are school but I am getting sick of people not say things becuase of the gov. and cry baby peoples. I know a girl that is a Jahovas witness and even she says merry christmas. I think if you are that hurt about people king words to you and your family than you better move to a town that only believes in your religion. Before you know it they wont play christmas songs or alow certain things in school. I am not going to go on with all this, bye
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2004, 10:02:47 PM »

This message is not meant as a slam against anyone, but just as an alternative view.  I could say more, but maybe even less might be better.  But I feel compelled to say it, regardless.

I agree with the expressed opinions to a point, in that things taken to an extreme can ruin all good intentions.  But I still think that "political correctness" (some would call it "politeness") has its place.

This morning, I walked into the lobby of my office building and saw a notice posted on the wall that the building would be closed December 24th and 25th.  When I asked the doormen why the building was going to be closed on Friday, they looked at each other, smiled and said, "Because that's OUR holiday!"

The message was obvious to me, and hit me like a ballbat between the eyes.  Funny thing is, even though there's a mezuzah on our doorway, I'm not Jewish; they just assumed.  But it didn't really matter what I was -- if anything.  Someone else's religious beliefs negatively inpacted my life.  In fact, I had to cancel scheduled appointments with clients.

It may be wrong to try to force everybody into the same vanilla mold in the name of equality.  It's just as wrong to disregard the differences among people.  Would be that we could wish everyone a  joyous observance of their own religious holiday, be it Hannukah, Christmas, Yule, or Ramadan; it's just that you just can't clearly tell a Hebrew from a Christian from a Pagan from a Muslim anymore.  (Tags on the clothing are not an option.)  "Happy Holidays" works just fine.  

I've seen a lot of rants recently railing against the use of "Happy Holidays."  That greeting has been around for ages; I've used it for years and continue to use it.  Who can really be offended by the phrase?  It's a simple, heartfelt wish of joy that recognizes the diversity of faith in our culture.  This small consideration to others (not knowing their beliefs) has cost me nothing.  

Now, it seems the fad is, "I have a right to tell you Merry Christmas, and if you don't like it -- too bad!"  Presuming everyone will just have to learn to revel in the "delights" of the dominant religion is just plain rude.  Since when has crass inconsideration of others beliefs become an American Virtue?  Or is this a corrollary of the recent culture of swagger, bluster and blow that has made our nation the pariah of all civilized nations?  Our country was founded by diverse people on the liberal ideals of the Enlightenment -- the "Grand Experiment"; I really fear for our society when it becomes respectable to go out of one's way to be disrepectful to those who are different.

Incidentally, Pagans have been decorating Yule trees since long before Jesus was born.  And so, on this day of the winter solstice, I wish you all a Happy Yule.  But only if you're pagan.  For everyone else, I wish you a Happy Holiday Season.  Really, I do.

-- Kris
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2004, 10:36:07 PM »

Kris^

People do have the right to say Merry Christmas, just as they have the right to say any other phrase they wish to. And the recieving person of that greeting has the right to dislike it and voice such oppinion. And the giver of rejected greeting has a right to say "if you don't like it TOO BAD."

You have the right to post how you feel about this post as I have the right to respond. What I was trying to get at and what I think John is saying is our rights are being trampled on by others that don't like it, instead of supporting everyones right to disagree and possibly hurt feelings. As far as hurt feelings all I can say is grow up. Have we all become so soft that a few words and actions permanantly damage you? Perhaps it's the product of being raised in an overly protective home. Not allowed to watch violence and such on Television. Is that a good thing? Who am I to judge? Am I getting off subject and ranting? I think so.

I may not like what you say, but I will stand up for your right to say it.
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2004, 10:57:21 PM »

I too may disagree with what you say but from 1983 to 1986 I wore green camo clothing to work,  to defend your right to say it.  I took an oath to defend your rights with my very life if need be I thank god I was not called on to give that ultimate sacrifice however I remember daily that three young men I watched grow up are right now away from their families two in fallujah and one in afghanistan wearing that same uniform so that
1.  those people may if they choose enjoy some of those same rights
2. so that those who invaded our shores to violate those rights will never do it again.
I say merry christrmas and happy hgolidays to all
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2004, 11:39:00 PM »

I reread my original post and although harsh at times, I don't change a word - although I will add a few.

Yes, my point was that basic rights are getting beaten down by political correctness and that people feel restricted to say ANYTHING religious in fear of being scorned. This goes for the kind jesture toward any religion - my bringing up Christmas is purely a timely event, but the last time I looked at my FEDERAL HOLIDAY CALANDER, December 25th (which it refers to as CHRISTMAS DAY) "is" a U.S. Federal Holiday.

My point FURTHER expressed, how can the government say this is a recognized holiday and then PREVENT the expression of it by it's employees, not only in the workplace, but at military housing where (in our case at Navy Lakehurst) officers have individual and typically widespread housing units which do not incroach on "Others" property or even their views.

In the SAME hypocracy, they have a "BEST DECORATED YARD" certificate offered to the (I assume) the prettiest YET least offensive yard - ugh. Don't you see the stupidity in any of this.

I agree about the "Our Holiday" was RUDE, when saying "we are closed for Christmas" is a VERY different statement. But I hope we can agree that there are A-Holes in every religion

If I know of someone's particular religion and the holiday is present, I try my best to recognise their observance - that is curtesy and I think normal - but "Normal" these days is a twisted bunch of BS that makes every word trip out of your mouth as if you are chewing aluminum foil with a mouthful of fillings.

Personally, and trust me I rarely talk about my own beliefs - that "not ONE, but most ALL religions are correct" I think God is an incompass of all that is good and humane. If there is good, there is evil, and we know that there are sects of religions which exist of pure evil intent. Just as I think the UN in general is a good concept, it allows the World's beliefs to be aired and weighed by the chosen few who represent those nations, but in reality it is just another scam that civilized man has to dredge through to find real meaning within the politics.

Again, I'm not picking on "Everyone" except Christians - that is not a Christianly thing to do. Respecting all beliefs is really a LARGER version of respecting individual beliefs. It's all just one jig-saw puzzle, a tapistry sewn together - but there are people who feel the need to restrict everything that they are against.

If telling someone that you know to be Christian "Merry Christmas" is wrong then I'm wrong. If restricting a school band from even playing "instrumentals" which contain the words Christmas is wrong, then I'm wrong.

I live in a very diverse area of the country: within 20 miles there are whole communities of different cultures, many of which it is hard to find people who speak English - they have classes in their schools teaching their heritage, courses in speaking their native language and even material paid for by the tax-payer printed in multi-lingual text. I have no problem with any of that. That is why we have school boards which are elected, it is to respect and reflect the local school zones.

I highly doubt they sing Christmas Carols in their schools, I also assume they have different days off (including Christmas) from their school calendar. None of that should bother me and it don't.

Although I think it is ideal to learn and speak English in America, many ethnic areas of the country seem to survive and even thrive without English - again, this is odd to me, but I accept that a country comprized of cultures from around the globe have the right to live in a fashion that best serves the community.

It's an odd world we live in, creatures as unimaginable as any creatures ever written of in fiction can walk, swim and fly the Earth. Man is luckily at the top of the food chain, not because of his physical strength, but his ability to reason. Toss man into a lion cage and he is toast, walk down the street in the wrong neighborhood at night and he is toast too. No creature on Earth is as clever, adaptive and as evil as man: but with the powers of reasoning comes a mighty burden: beyond all other things man has choice.

We can be good, evil, loving or murderous. Civilized man supposedly has the ability to show compassion and understanding - yet as sophisticated as we are, we lack common sense.  And at that, I'll end this epic lengthed post by saying: If it doesn't hurt to be kind, then why is it so important today to find every excuse to restrict common curtesy?

As the ONLY Religious holiday recognized by the U.S. Federal Government, Christmas is getting a real beating today. Not the holiday, but the meaning. It's mostly agnostics and athiests crying about their tax dollar which they would rather see go to social programs which help keep minorities enslaved in the lower lower middle class. Very often it is the messenger and not the message.

I assume these people who wish to see an end to any reference to the religious connections to Christmas WON'T be happy until the only thing left is a whimsical story of Santa and his Reindeer, elves and magical sleighs. I'm sorry if I see this as sensorship and a violation of religious rights, but I do. Add all the religious holidays you wish to the calander, that is fine by me - I think it is fair and long overdue. But picking, chosing and restricting is what is wrong. And I'll be sheep-dipped before I ever say "Have a very Merry Holiday!" nope... Not this American.
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2004, 06:06:50 AM »

I accept whatever greeeting anyo0ne wants to give me at this time of year. I take it as a expression of friendlyness and those who want to get offended at what I say can go take a leap. Take the greeting in the spirit intended. As for the building being closed and the guys saying cause thats our holiday, I guess them saying it is their religon would be one way to take it, or they could have meant that it was their paid time off and maybe they took offense that someone would want them to work it.
I really try to look for the good in all situations, not saying that I always find it but I look

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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2004, 07:47:46 AM »

Please understand, I rarely take offense at mere words directed my way; I have had too many scurrilous epithets thrown at me through the years to let them stick.  A "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hannakah" is not taken as an insult..

But reading about people's "rights" reminds me of an old Andy Capp cartoon.  Andy is lying on a bench at the pub, crowding out other customers.  The bartender comments, "I may have the right to throw him out, but that doesn't mean I have the fortitude."

We all have rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights.  Inherent in every right is the right to NOT exercise it.  The second amendment gives me the right to bear arms, but I don't have to wn a gun.  The Fifth Amendment protects me from testifying against myself, but I can do so volutarily.  The First Amendment allows me to worship as I please -- or not.  And it allows me to speak my mind and say what I want -- or remain silent.  Which I usually do.  Incidentally, none of these rights are iron-clad and absolute; there are some restrictions on their exercise.  ("You're right to swing your fists ends at the beginning of my nose.")

These rights weren't just established in 1791 and left at that.  The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, they say, and so it is.  As I see it, the fight to retain our freedoms takes place on two battlefields -- the courts and the streets, not in far-off lands.  People die in the battles right here in our homeland to ensure that our civil rights are not trampled.  I remember the fights for civil rights in the 50s and 60s.  At that time, it seemed the guys in green (in the form of various national guards) were more often than not arrayed decidedly AGAINST those seeking to secure their rights.      

I understand anyone's right to exercise their right to autonomy in the US (to exercise one's unique religion, career, sexual orientation, residency, etc.).  Please understand, I rarely take offense at mere words directed my way; I have had too many scurrilous epithets thrown at me through the years to let them stick.  A "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hannakah" is not taken as an insult.   But civility costs nothing, and maybe some people's unwillingness (or inability) to exercise THAT is why the government sometimes feels a need to step in.  I don't mean to harp like Miss Manners on the issue, but there you go.

Okay, I've had may say, and now I fully intend to enjoy the holiday season.  I hope you one and all do, too.  I plan to have a large gathering of family -- my kids, their partners, and even my ex and current partner! -- for the biggest dinner we've had here.  I've embraced the American Orgy to its fullest and have extended my credit way farther than I should have.  I'm gonna love it!  

-- Kris
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2004, 09:49:50 PM »

Remeber Seinfield ---  Happy Festivus ---- A holiday for the rest of us. It's when we stand around the aluminum pole and tell everyone how much they have disapointed us.

I intend to say Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays when ever I feel like it.  A Jewish guy I work with said, "Merry Christmas" to me as I was leavingthe office today and he was not struck down by a lightning bolt for saying it.  

Go ahead and say, "Merry Christmas!" , what ever you want, you will not be arrested.
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2004, 11:33:16 PM »

That is how it should be. bye
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2004, 09:44:05 AM »

Quote from: Jerrymac
It just amazes me how far they strech the seperation of church and state. Actually I'm not sure I have ever read those words in the constitution or bill of rights.


Seperation of church and state is not an American principle but is found in Article 53 of the constitution of the Soviet Union.

Seperation of Church and State came from an anti-Semite, anti-Catholic, racist (KKK member) supreme court judge named Hugo Black.  He injected the phrase in a 1947 ruling of Everson vs. Board of Education as a means to punish religious groups he hated.

It is amazing how these leftist liberal God haters grab right onto this, which by the way, went against a 150 year court precendent.  In 1892 court ruling "we are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being", which was also affirmed by Chief Justice Douglas in 1932.

It is unfortunate that these wacko leftist are trying to take advantage of the fact that we are a Republic and not a Democracy by trying to force their believes thru court decisions and not elections.  That is the reason for pushing liberal judges to the bench.  They hide behind a false pretense that they represent the minorities yet have been obstructing judical judge nominations like Miguel Estrada & Priscilla Owen, both who have recieved the highest rating from the ABA. To top it off, Ted Kennedy refers to these blocked nominees as "Neanderthals".    But yet they will fight to the bitter end on a ruling by a religious hating racist supreme court judge.

This great country was built on a Christian foundation, and when my ancestors migrated here,  they did not come here with the desire to change this country, but worked very hard to become a part of it and what it stood for.  It seems like times have changed, and there is no longer the desire to become apart of this great land, but to change every aspect of it from language to religion and now the effort is to break down this foundation and turn this country into another euro-socialist country.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah,  Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Festivus or whatever other holiday you celebrate.  Respect my rights to celebrate my Holiday as I respect yours.  Just don't try change the foundations of our great country.

I'll end with a piece that some of you have probably seen attributed to Paul Harvey.  Although it isn't from Paul, it is still worth reading.

Quote

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December.

I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game.


So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.

"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue.

Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.

According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect-somebody chanting Hare Krishna?

If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.

If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome...

"But what about the atheists?" is another argument.

What about them?

Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds.. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer

Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do.

I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep.

Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us! And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me.

The silent majority has been silent too long.. it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want.. it is time the majority rules! It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don' t have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him.

That is your right, and we will honor your right..

but by golly, you are no longer going to take our rights away .. we are fighting back.. and we WILL WIN

God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him... God bless America, despite all her faults, she is still the greatest nation of all.....

God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God...

May 2005 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions.

Keep looking up...... In God WE Trust.

Nick Gholson
Times Record News, Wichita Falls, Texas

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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2004, 01:06:24 PM »

That term stinks, I know a number of Indians who hate being called native americans or  american indian they perfere to be called INDIAN or THE FIRST PEOPLE.  Come on when do we just become AMERICANS with out haveing to stick lables on each other.  The goverment keeps receism going by requiring the a race be put on census forms.  All people should mark other on the forms and wright in AMERICAN.    cry  We should not have to worry about offending someone because they come from another area.  Before I found my spiritualityand when I was (1960 something) in high school I recited the pledge of aligence with out saying under god, that was OK it was my choice, and I was allowed to do it.  If we keep trying not to offend people we just wind up offending more it needs to STOP and we need to stop trying to spare everybodies feelings.  Lets all work together and try to become a HUGE family that is what it's all about-IMHO-if your born in this country YOUR AN AMERICAN.   I get real tired of the ACLU and other groups telling me that I cann't say this or that 'cause it might offend someone.  Our tax dollar goes to support the groups that shove POLITICAL CORRECTNESS down our throts, ie-the ACLU.  Stop funding them.
               In case you cann't tell I get really worked up on this subject.
Just for the records IMHO your belief is just that your belief be it church, demigod, temple, sweat lodge, or what ever.  If it makes you feel whole and that is what counts, nothing more, just please don't tell me that your way is the only way.
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2004, 02:11:20 PM »

I made mention prior to the resent Presidential election that the important issue is WHO will be nominated for the Supreme Court over the next 4 years - I stand by that prediction.

Luckily, whether you call it "The first majority victory in 7 presidential races" or a "squeak by win of only 2 percent of the vote" the moral majority has again shown that this nation over-all wants to be morally conscienced people with ethical beliefs and with a need for less governmental control and more personal responcibility. I believe it's a moral choice, not just a Christian choice - people are tired of the average prison time for murder being less than 7 years and for lesser crimes plea bargaining which offers release for nearly all but Federal crimes and Felonies.

I read an interesting book lately (The Taking by Dean Koontz) which as a fictional tale I don't think was his best work, but the premise was very interesting: a great "Invasion" of what the characters and reader of the story assumes are warships from another galaxy. First a glowing rain of nearly a foot an hour pours around the planet, then fungus like creatures sprout all over - the assumption they are oxygen scavengers here to eat and kill of trees and change the enviroment of the planet to be more fitting for the aliens and deadly to us humans.

Over the many pages of the book, adults are literally lifted thru ceilings and taken up into the ships and by the millions people are harvested, leaving only children and a few adults which are "Interestingly" skilled in many trades. Some people are smiling and laughing, other shriek in agony.

As you read the story, you realize that this HARVESTING of humans is in actuality the CLEANSING of the planet much like in Noah's time. The good people moving on to heaven and the bad to Hell. The great spaceships are finally seen through the murky skys as great creatures, more of flesh than of metal - these creatures leave our planet with only a few thousand humans left to repopulate the world.

The one interesting statement is: if a society superiorly advanced were to come, their technology would (to us) seem to be more magical than scientific. I think of just a hundred years ago showing people a jet aircraft, the Internet, cellphones, man walking on the moon, satalites, Hi-Def TVs and a million other modern day technologies (which we take for granted) to these people, the technology would seem magical. Then I think, what will there be in another hundred years (especially knowing the advancements we have made in the last 10 decades) and the answer is obvious, more technologies which to us would appear as magic.

Do you ever wonder how for thousands of years, people around the world lived with nearly NO CHANGES in their lives. They rarely ventured more than 20 miles from home, the rode animals, lived by candle light or lamps, never advancing in technology for hundreds of generations: and then look at our times, the great leap in human interaction, miracles of countless numbers - the simple ability of this forum to reach around the globe at remarkable speed.

You will never convince me that our time (maybe not now, but within a few generations) something special will happen - a paradygm shift in human advancement, maybe beyond the phsyical body into a conscience creature, maybe time travel, definitely logistical transporters which will wisk you up and reassemble you anywhere on the Earth at affordable prices. Nothing is unobtainable, I truly believe that - it's just understanding the technology and making use of the "Stuff" that we already have, just in very different ways.

The only thing that prevents man from being a superior being (not Godly, just superior) is his cruelty to his fellow man. We may need Godly intervention to end the hatred which has plagued man since he walked this planet. But I think the greater plan for man is coming soon and whether through technology or Godly intervention, something is coming and I'd rather find myself on the side of good than evil when that day comes.

Many people think the ENTIRE Bible is a parable, others read it all as fact, even though it's hard to understand much of "The APPARENT MAGICAL" aspects of many of the stories. Again, because we don't understand often leaves us believing it is magic, or exagerations, or tales. We need to get beyond the common sense of things and understand that we don't understand everything and "If we are in the dark" imagine what it was like THOUSANDS of years ago in Biblical times!

Nope.... I don't understand when people of different faiths try to restrict the beliefs and celebration of other faiths. I would hope that people see that restricting anyone's beliefs only creates hurt and distrust. It almost always comes down to minorities fighting for equal time, but NOT accomplishing it by building up their own celebration, but by tearing down others. This is NOT a religious ideal as much as it is a social creation that laws allow and man abuses. We allow hate to destroy almost unchallenged, and often it is justified by skanks like the ACLU who support anything as long as it is immoral, unjust or hateful.

So, I thank God for the level headed people who kept a moral President in office, although I am not a big GWB fan and although "historically" we may not understand why we are at war again, this time of our own choosing: He is NOT the Evil of Two Lessers - thus I'm honored that we have a moral leader representing us again.

The country is out of control - I'm not saying there is ANY religious belief that could save it (honestly, I don't think Religion has much to do with it) but morality does and that includes giving people the chance to celebrate their beliefs, protect their families and grow as a species. We all have the STUFF necessary to do these things and as I mentioned in a previous post - it all comes down to CHOICE: the one item that separates us from ALL OTHER SPECIES on this planet. And choice is a beautful thing, and very much the opposite of censorship... So, tell me that my saying Merry Christmas is offensive, and that even mentioning Christmas is rude, then surely someday you will understand what a foolish choice you made.
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2004, 07:34:47 PM »

You simply cannot legislate morality, it has to come from within. I think it is something that parents install over time by example. I don't care what laws you make if someone is immoral they will be a lawbreaker as well.
Parents that are afriad of not being their childs "friend' will not have the backbone to raise a child to adulthood with character (which I would equate with morality). Rather they give in to their childs every desire, letting the child rule the house, hey it gives you the illusion that your child likes you and it is a lot easier then standing our ground and following through on promises and punishments.
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2004, 08:10:49 PM »

Rog/John,

I couldn't agree more,  morality is surely the biggest problem with society these days, and yes it can be directly attributed to the upbringing by parents.  Unfortunately the lack of morality has left far to many children without both parents and a strong family to lead by example.  I am by no means trying to group all single parents into one big group.  Yes there are single parents that happen to be that way by circumstance, and are doing a fine job raising their kids.  But there are far more single parent kids out there that are considered burdens.
I agree you can't legislate morality, by the liberals sure are trying to legislate immorality.  It is becoming harder and harder to try and teach morals to your kids when the liberals are doing there best to teach immoral issues in schools.  I could care less what two people do in the privacy of their own bedroom, but I don't need the schools teaching my children that Sally has two mommies and it is normal.  Nor do I need them handing out condoms or promoting abortion while at the same time removing God from schools.
It also doesn't help that you can't even repremand your children without the fear of being arrested.  I'm pretty sure a good majority of us where "repremanded" by our parents and teachers growing up,  and when we look back, we actually appreciate it now.
When I got in trouble at school,  I knew I was in for more when I got home and my parents found out.  These days instead of backing up the teachers, many parents go after the teachers and schools.  What example does this set for their children?  I'm so sick of this emotional distress crap. You did something wrong and now your suffering the consequences.  Hopefully you've learned something and won't do it again.
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2004, 08:19:24 PM »

Funny you should mention that right now Rog.  I just had to send my 8 y.o. to bed without supper because of his atrocious behavior throughout the latter part of the afternoon and into the evening ( really more of a psycological punishment, he had " lunch " at around 4:30 pm ). But we had a long talk in his bedroom because he believed I was punishing him because I "hated" him ( his words ) but I had to explain to him that it was my job, as his parent,  to show him right from wrong and when he chose to behave "wrong" there were consequences. I think it sunk in somewhat because we seemed in a better place when the lights went out.  But the irony of it is that, that is the kind of thing that rips out your heart to have to do as a parent, but if you ask the kid, and I mean any kid not just mine, they would say we're doing it because we like it or like to be mean. And then of course the next day, or even an hour later, everything is forgotton and life goes on as normal.  But as you say Rog, these are the tiny little moments of time, stacked one on top of the other, throughout our lives, that make up who we are and what we have for moral fiber later in our lives. Literally, the stuff we call on to make all out decisions in adult life. I'm gonna shut up 'cause I'm scarin' myself here. How come kids don't come with instruction manuals?   shocked  cheesy
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2004, 09:26:42 PM »

Quote from: Robo

I agree you can't legislate morality, by the liberals sure are trying to legislate immorality.  


Hmmm . . . I've become concerned about several conservative "morality-based" initiatives working their way through the various legislatures recently . . . just a matter of liberal perspective, though, I guess.      wink

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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2004, 10:05:00 PM »

Quote from: Kris^

Hmmm . . . I've become concerned about several conservative "morality-based" initiatives working their way through the various legislatures recently


Care to elaborate with some examples?  I bet there are more folks here with Libertarian beliefs when it comes to social policies than you realize.
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2004, 10:37:17 AM »

I tend to agree with Robo, if indeed Librertarian" means "middle of the road" points of view. I know I'm open minded about most issues, but lean toward the right on many others.

I know there is a HUGE percentage of people who think the Moral Majority of the country have a HIDDEN CHRISTIAN OFFENSIVE (I'll save us both the trouble of using agenda when we all know the LEFTISTS would perfer OFFENSIVE over agenda) so I'll humor them right off the bat.

They all seem to think that their RIGHTS are being attacked, when in truth their Rights are being defended - when a parent stops a teen from hanging with the wrong crowd, rarely does it seem to the teen that he is being protected, rather he sees a violation of his freedom. And I think that is what is happening with the Left, they are too paranoid or convinced that everything that makes common sense, or anything that protects their freedom is an assult on their Rights.

I'm sure a lot of this is Trickle Down misconceptions or propaganda from the main stream media (who makes a living off of critisism of the Right) but I'm convinced that most comes from generational idealism passed from parent to child.

In a country where 30 year old grandmothers with four different baby daddys procuring their cornicopia of children, that governmental support (they call it assistance, we call it Welfare) is not a way to get through tough times, but a life-style passed on like the olympic torch.

Frankly, if it weren't for the 4th generation Welfare, where these system-dependant mothers and children remain the wards of the tax-payers until they qualify for Social Securty - I don't think the Left would have the power they have. They create and accept, even support fatherless families as a continuous database of likely voters, meanwhile using the receivers of these programs as examples of the need for such governmental programs.

This vicious cycle creates dysfunctional families, endless generations of drug dependant citizens, rising crime rates and over crowded prisons. It fosters the need for letting criminals out of prisons early in order to house more severe criminals in an ever growing incarserated population of more hardened prisoners. We are letting bad-assed thugs walk the street because it trickles down from dysfunctional families who think the ANSWER to all their problems is MORE Federal and State support.

I'm not blaming the people, by nature many people take the path of least resistance and when the chance of laying with any man that can put a baby in your stomach is condoned by a political party or the people behind such a party, when the only consequence is receiving a larger Welfare check, then where is the down-side to the receiver of such benefits?

The idea of social programs was to "fill in the gap" between times when people could not find work and be self suficient - it was not a life-style or a meant as a reason to pop-out another 6 kids from 7 different baby-daddys. It is sickening to think of the mindset created by those who incourage the abuse of social programs. It is slavery in the 21st century and the left uses it as its biggest advrtizing tool.

I'll stay away from race issues, the voting block of minorities hasn't changed, even though the moral beliefs of many minorities has moved conciderably to the right over the last decade. Much like the YOUTH VOTE that was suppose to move Kerry into the Whitehouse, the minority vote was supposed to change away from the left - but neither happened, so not much has changed in those two very large voting blocks.


We are not doomed, although if governmental handouts continued to be abused as they have for so many years, then we will continue to see an ever-growing group of leeches milk the tax-dollar beyond the breaking point.

Lastly, I'm not talking about the 10% or so of truly needy people who could not and would not survive without social relief. But the problem isn't those who need our help, it is those who abuse the system and sadly the children of the Welfare abusers don't know any better and will likely continue the tradition into the 5th, 6th and 7th generation of abusers who are often very capable of supporting themselves, yet they take (what they have been told) is the easy road and milk the cash cow.

Meanwhile the Left won't be happy until what is left is a police-state where crime is unrelenting, drugs are the norm and prisons out number housing developments 10 to 1. It is then when the Left can say "See, we told you THIS was going to happen" when all along, it was THEM who was creating the scenario.

So, keep saying how Moral the Left is, I need a good laugh. But please DON'T EVER get the left and the DEMOCRATS confused, I'm not bashing the Democrats here. They are as inocent against the subliminal assault from the Left as the 50 year old Great-Grandmothers who have grown up on the teats of the tax-payers.

Personally, I think a two party system (and any other parties who claim to have enough political power to join in) is necessary. I rarely vote a straight party line, and honestly (except for the Presidental Vote) I didn't vote Repulican this year. Our local Governments need a change and the only way was to get a few Dems in office. But I look at their "Slate and their plans" and hope that I'm not making a mistake, just as I do when voting for any other politician.

But there is only so much money for social programs and I have no doubt that people who are truly needy often are turned away because there are people healthy and able to work, but chose not to. Again, there is that word CHOICE - man is that a powerful word.

So that is the end of my soap-boxing it. I think I have said everything that I need to for now Smiley I know of one of the members who probably disagrees about 99% of what I've said - that's okay, this is a free country, just don't say the word CHRISTMAS too loud!
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