Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
April 25, 2014, 05:51:09 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: ATTENTION ALL NEW MEMBERS
PLEASE READ THIS OR YOUR ACCOUNT MAY BE DELETED - CLICK HERE
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat(1)  

Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: To exclude or not to exclude, that is the question...  (Read 3494 times)
Miss Pepper
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 12

Location: Washington


« on: April 12, 2008, 07:42:00 PM »

Here's something I've been wondering about, maybe you can help shed some light on this...

There is an elderly man in the beekeeping club I occasionally go to who is very strongly against queen excluders.  In his words, "a queen excluder is the same thing as a honey excluder."  I asked him if he has problems with his queens laying in the honey supers, but he said that even if the queen does lay up there, after they hatch they fill the cells back up with honey, and all it does is make the honey a little darker in color.  He has lots of hives and has been keeping bees for a very long time, so his opinion is respected.  (in other words, it's not just some random new beekeeper's idea with no validation)

What do you think about this?  Is he just an old man used to his ways, or is there really a big difference by not using an excluder?
Logged
rdy-b
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


Location: clayton ca


« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2008, 07:52:01 PM »

lots of pepole dont run excluders -if you have many hives then it is somthing that helps you when you harvest-the small amount of honey i might lose is of no consequence to me -pulling honey for sevral days in a row needs to be done without the slow down of rambling trough boxes looking for brood -we just pull honey from above the excluder and geterdone cheesy RDY-B
Logged
Bigeddie
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 100

Location: Catawba,Wisconsin


« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2008, 07:58:11 PM »

I'm not using them any more. Bees seem reluctant to go thru and draw comb or fill supers. If I were you I would take heed of what the old beek said. Try it both ways, then you will know for sure. What works best for you is what you need to do.  Smiley
Logged

God bless Us all!!
JordanM
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 393


Location: Standish, Michigan


« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2008, 08:06:22 PM »

You might want to try a search on this(it has been discused many, many times befour.

I will be using an excluder.
Logged

WhipCityBeeMan
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 148


Location: Massachusetts


« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2008, 08:52:36 PM »

I have used a queen excluder in my hives and found that they do, at times, act as a honey excluder as the old bee pro put it.  I have also heard that if you put the excluder in perpendicular it allows the workers up into the honey super on the front and back of the hive but the queen generally moves in the middle of the hive so it still excludes her.  I have no idea of that is true but it might be worth a try. It certainly wouldn't hurt.
Logged

Sola Scripture - Sola Fide - Sola Gracia - Solus Christus - Soli Deo Gloria
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2008, 09:02:47 PM »

>There is an elderly man in the beekeeping club I occasionally go to who is very strongly against queen excluders.  In his words, "a queen excluder is the same thing as a honey excluder."

I agree.

>  I asked him if he has problems with his queens laying in the honey supers, but he said that even if the queen does lay up there, after they hatch they fill the cells back up with honey, and all it does is make the honey a little darker in color.

And if there is enough drone comb in the brood boxes, she probably won't even lay there.

>  He has lots of hives and has been keeping bees for a very long time, so his opinion is respected.  (in other words, it's not just some random new beekeeper's idea with no validation)

Exactly.

>What do you think about this?  Is he just an old man used to his ways, or is there really a big difference by not using an excluder?

There is a big difference.  I gave them up 33 years ago.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Miss Pepper
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 12

Location: Washington


« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2008, 09:05:54 PM »

I have also heard that if you put the excluder in perpendicular it allows the workers up into the honey super on the front and back of the hive but the queen generally moves in the middle of the hive so it still excludes her.

That's an interesting idea, I haven't thought of that before.  Maybe I'll give that a try, thanks!

I want lots of honey, but I don't know how I would remove the larva, eggs, etc. when I harvest it.  It'd be nice if I could get the best of both, lots of honey and no brood in it!
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13475


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2008, 09:59:31 AM »

>t'd be nice if I could get the best of both, lots of honey and no brood in it!

There is nothing difficult about it.  First if you use all the same sized boxes, then you don't care anyway.  If there is brood in a super, you just put that frame back down in the brood nest and steal a frame of honey from the brood nest.

But even if they are different sizes, if there is drone comb in the brood nest they will not be tempted to rework the soft wax in the super to make drone brood and the queen will have no reason to go lay there.

But if you REALLY are worried about it, you can buy 7/11 foundation from Walter T. Kelley and the queen doesn't like to lay in it as it's too large for worker and too small for drone.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
DayValleyDahlias
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1622


Location: Aptos, California


WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008, 10:13:48 AM »

Thanks to the info here  I do not use an excluder and won't....I just filtered out bee bits with cheese cloth  Wink
Logged


<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniWeather2_both_cond/language/www/US/CA/Aptos.gif
" border=0
alt="Click for Aptos, California Forecast" height=50 width=150>[/url]

"Become vegetarian/vegan, and no one gets hurt"
tillie
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1739


Location: Atlanta, GA

Bee in N Georgia on a Blackberry flower


WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2008, 02:11:53 PM »

I have used the queen excluder twice:

Once as a drain board for cut comb honey - the spacing on the queen excluder is the perfect size not to "dent" the wax in the beautiful comb

Second:  when I had two queens in a hive (or thought I did) and folks on this list suggested that I put a queen excluder between two boxes to see if a week later there were eggs in both boxes - proving the presence of a queen in both boxes.

Otherwise I let the queen lay where she wishes which has only very rarely been in a honey super.

Linda T in Atlanta with a feminist perspective on the freedom of the queen.
Logged

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You never can tell with bees" - Winnie the Pooh


Click for Atlanta, Georgia Forecast" border="0" height="60" width="468
JP
The Swarm King
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 11662


Location: Metairie, Louisiana

I like doing cut-outs, but I love catching swarms!


WWW
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2008, 02:40:50 PM »

My .02, I don't use them either, no problems.


...JP
Logged

"Good friends are as sweet as honey" Winne the Pooh

My pictures can be viewed at http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus
and
http://picasaweb.google.com/112138792165178452970

My Youtube videos can be viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=JPthebeeman&aq=f

My website JPthebeeman.com http://www.jpthebeeman.com/jpthebeeman/
DayValleyDahlias
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1622


Location: Aptos, California


WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2008, 03:05:30 PM »

LOL cheesy I bees laughing~*~*~
Logged


<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniWeather2_both_cond/language/www/US/CA/Aptos.gif
" border=0
alt="Click for Aptos, California Forecast" height=50 width=150>[/url]

"Become vegetarian/vegan, and no one gets hurt"
Joseph Clemens
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 382


Location: Tucson, Arizona U S A


WWW
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2008, 04:01:55 PM »

 grin

There are different ways to do things, configuring hives included.



I just started trying it, and it seems to work fine, so far. I'm sure there will be some that never try anything different or new -- I like tinkering. Tinkering can be fun.
Logged


<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniWeather06_both/language/www/US/AZ/Marana.gif
" border=0
alt="Click for Marana, Arizona Forecast" height=50 width=150>[/url]
Joseph Clemens
Beekeeping since 1964
10+ years in Tucson, Arizona
12+ hives and 15+ nucs
No chemicals -- no treatments of any kind, EVER.
Miss Pepper
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 12

Location: Washington


« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2008, 04:34:18 PM »

That's interesting...  It looks like with your hive the queen cannot get out.  With this configuration, how do you know if they are becoming too crowded? (It looks like they couldn't swarm, even if they wanted to)

Alright, you've convinced me to take off my excluder...  I'm learning a lot!
Logged
pttom
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 33

Location: Denton, N.C.


« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2008, 04:47:56 PM »

(It looks like they couldn't swarm, even if they wanted to)

Alright, you've convinced me to take off my excluder...  I'm learning a lot!

The Queen will be reduced in weight, so she can get through the extruder if they want to swarm.
Logged
pttom
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 33

Location: Denton, N.C.


« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2008, 04:52:16 PM »

grin

I just started trying it, and it seems to work fine, so far. I'm sure there will be some that never try anything different or new -- I like tinkering. Tinkering can be fun.

I too have some of my hives like this and believe it's going to work just fine for me.
Logged
Joseph Clemens
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 382


Location: Tucson, Arizona U S A


WWW
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2008, 06:01:56 PM »

I forgot to mention, I drill a 7/16 inch diameter hole into a corner of the back side of the top brood super so drones and queens can exit the brood area if they wish. This configuration makes it easier for the foragers to enter the honey supers than the brood supers, inspiring them to deposit more nectar into the honey supers than into clogging the brood nest. Seems like a win - win to me.
Logged


<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniWeather06_both/language/www/US/AZ/Marana.gif
" border=0
alt="Click for Marana, Arizona Forecast" height=50 width=150>[/url]
Joseph Clemens
Beekeeping since 1964
10+ years in Tucson, Arizona
12+ hives and 15+ nucs
No chemicals -- no treatments of any kind, EVER.
Joseph Clemens
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 382


Location: Tucson, Arizona U S A


WWW
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2008, 06:03:34 PM »

grin

I just started trying it, and it seems to work fine, so far. I'm sure there will be some that never try anything different or new -- I like tinkering. Tinkering can be fun.

I too have some of my hives like this and believe it's going to work just fine for me.

I look forward to comparing notes.  Smiley
Logged


<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniWeather06_both/language/www/US/AZ/Marana.gif
" border=0
alt="Click for Marana, Arizona Forecast" height=50 width=150>[/url]
Joseph Clemens
Beekeeping since 1964
10+ years in Tucson, Arizona
12+ hives and 15+ nucs
No chemicals -- no treatments of any kind, EVER.
DennisB
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 206


Location: Louisiana MO


« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2008, 10:43:16 PM »

What is the reason for the offset of the supers? Am I missing something. I would think that would let in water during a rain.

DennisB
Logged
Joseph Clemens
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 382


Location: Tucson, Arizona U S A


WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2008, 11:54:30 PM »

What is the reason for the offset of the supers? Am I missing something. I would think that would let in water during a rain.

DennisB
With SBBs to let it out the bottom I could pour it in with a hose or a bucket and it will just channel down the vertical wooden surfaces and out the bottom and onto the ground (remember everything inside the hive is coated with beeswax and propolis) -- in a way this would not be a reverse of a process which is one of the reasons the honey supers are pushed back to begin with. Extra access for the foragers and convection pushing the heated and moisture laden air up and out of the supers and the honey, nee nectar. When its raining the ambient humidity is too high to assist in curing nectar to honey anyways.

I've been a beekeeper in many parts of our wonderful country, even including Whidbey Island, Washington for seven years, where it seems to rain more than 300 days out of the year. Even there I've seen what lots of rainwater infiltrating a hive can do, and how the water channels down and out, I assume designed by the bees that way. One of their many wonderful instinctive talents.
Logged


<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniWeather06_both/language/www/US/AZ/Marana.gif
" border=0
alt="Click for Marana, Arizona Forecast" height=50 width=150>[/url]
Joseph Clemens
Beekeeping since 1964
10+ years in Tucson, Arizona
12+ hives and 15+ nucs
No chemicals -- no treatments of any kind, EVER.
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.413 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page April 10, 2014, 06:38:13 PM
anything