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Author Topic: whats the problem with Round-up (glysophate)  (Read 6637 times)
Understudy
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2008, 12:01:21 PM »


I saw that last week. It is an intriguing documentary, but I knew most of that before it ever aired. I encourage others to watch it.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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The status is not quo. The world is a mess and I just need to rule it. Dr. Horrible
LocustHoney
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2008, 12:09:07 PM »

Only got to see the first little bit but will definitely watch the rest.
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kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2008, 12:35:20 PM »

no propaganda there!  smiley

do you know that if water is over-chlorinated it can make you really sick?  antibiotics can kill you.  some kids die from immunization reactions.  better to leave off those chemicals and let people die of natural causes like starvation and dysentary.......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
shawnwri
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2008, 01:10:08 PM »

Might as well admit it, Monsanto is in fact the maker of Soylent Green and are pushing for the destruction of all natural food crops. rolleyes
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DayValleyDahlias
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2008, 03:21:42 PM »

Oh yeah this stuff is really safe, maybe we can add it to the baby food so it has a longer shelf life...you know, so weeds don't grow in it or anything like that...please don't  tell me that the studies done on rats don't prove anything.  I work in an agriculture area with extreme high incidence of cancers in the field workers...this is serious stuff. 

New research findings are raising serious concerns over the safety of
the most commonly used herbicide, and should be sending shockwaves
through proponents of genetically modified (GM) crops made tolerant to
the herbicide, which now account for 75% of all GM crops in the world.
Worse yet, the most common formulation of the herbicide is even more
toxic than the herbicide by itself, and is made by the same biotech
giant that created the herbicide tolerant GM crops.
Broad-spectrum herbicide glyphosate (N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine),
commonly sold in the commercial formulation Roundup (Monsanto company,
St. Louis, Missouri USA) has been frequently used both on crops and
non-crops areas world wide since it was introduced in the 1970s. Roundup
is a combination of glyphosate with other chemicals including a
surfactant (detergent) polyoxyethyleneamine that enhance the spreading
of the spray droplets on the leaves of plants. The use of Roundup has
gone up especially in countries growing Roundup-tolerant GM crops
created by Monsanto.
Glyphosate kills plants by inhibiting the enzyme,
5-enolpyruvoyl-shikimate-3-phosphate synthetase (EPSPS), essential for
the formation of aromatic amino acids such as phenylalanine, tyrosine
and tryptophan; which leads onto vitamins and many secondary metabolites
such as folates, ubiquinones and naphthoquines. It is believed to be
rather specific in action and less toxic than other herbicides, because
the shikimate pathway is not present in mammals and humans. However,
glyphosate acts by preventing the binding of phosphoenol pyruvate to the
active site of the enzyme, and phosphoenol pyruvate is a core metabolite
present in all organisms; thus it has the potential to affect other
metabolic pathways. This is borne out by many reports of toxicities
associated with the herbicide reviewed in the Independent Science Panel
Report, The Case for a GM-free Sustainable World [1].
An epidemiological study in the Ontario farming populations showed that
glyphosate exposure nearly doubled the risk of late spontaneous
abortions [2], and Prof. Eric-Giles Seralini and his research team from
Caen University in France decided to find out more about the effects of
the herbicide on cells from the human placenta.
They have now shown that glyphosate is toxic to human placental cells,
killing a large proportion of them after 18 hr of exposure at
concentrations below that in agricultural use [3]. Moreover, Roundup is
always more toxic than its active ingredient, glyphosate; at least by
two-fold. The effect increased with time, and was obtained with
concentrations of Roundup 10 times lower than agricultural use.
The enzyme aromatase is responsible for making the female hormones
estrogens from androgens (the male hormones). Glyphosate interacts with
the active site of the enzyme but its effect on enzyme activity was
minimal unless Roundup was present.
Interestingly, Roundup increased enzyme activity after 1 h of
incubation, possibly because of its surfactant effect in making the
androgen substrate more available to the enzyme. But at 18h incubation,
Roundup invariably inhibited enzyme activity; the inhibition being
associated with a decrease in mRNA synthesis, suggesting that Roundup
decreased the rate of gene transcription. Seralini and colleagues
suggest that other ingredients in the Roundup formulation enhance the
availability or accumulation of glyphosate in cells.
There is, indeed, direct evidence that glyphosate inhibits RNA
transcription in animals at a concentration well below the level that is
recommended for commercial spray application Transcription was inhibited
and embryonic development delayed in sea urchins following exposure to
low levels of the herbicide and/or the surfactant polyoxyethyleneamine.
The pesticide should be considered a health concern by inhalation during
spraying [4].
New research shows that a brief exposure to commercial glyphosate caused
liver damage in rats, as indicated by the leakage of intracellular liver
enzymes. In this study, glyphosate and its surfactant in Roundup were
also found to act in synergy to increase damage to the liver [5].
Three recent case-control studies suggested an association between
glyphosate use and the risk of non-Hodgkin lymphoma [6-8]; while a
prospective cohort study in Iowa and North Carolina that includes more
than 54 315 private and commercial licensed pesticide applicators
suggested a link between glyphosate use and multiple myoeloma [9].
Myeloma has been associated with agents that cause either DNA damage or
immune suppression. These studies did not distinguish between Roundup
and glyphosate, and it would be important for that to be done.
There is now a wealth of evidence that glyphosate requires worldwide
health warnings and new regulatory review. Meanwhile, its use should be
reduced to a minimum as a matter of prudent precaution.
References
The Case for a GM-Free Sustainable World, Chapter 7, ISIS & TWN, London
& Penang, 2003.
Savitz DA, Arbuckle , Kaczor D, Curtis KM. Male pesticide exposure and
pregnancy outcome. Am J Epidemiol 2000, 146, 1025-36.
Richard S, Moslemi S, Sipahutar H, Benachour N and Seralini G-E.
Differential effects of glyphosate and Roundup on human placental cells
and aromatases
Marc J, Le Breton M, CormierP, Morales J, Belle´R and Mulner-Lorillo O.
A glyphosate-based pesticide impinges on transcription. Toxicology and
Applied Pharmacology 2005, 203, 1-8.
Benedetti AL, de Lourdes Vituri C, Trentin AG, Dominguesc MAC and
Alvarez-Silva M. The effects of sub-chronic exposure of Wistar rats to
the herbicide Glyphosate-Biocarb. Toxicology Letters 2004, 153, 227 32.
De Roos AH, Zahm SH, Cantor KP, et al. Integrative assessment of
multiple pesticides as risk factors for non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma among
men. Occup Environ Med 2003, 60, E11
http://oem.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/60/9/e11
Hardell L, Eriksson M, Nordstrom M. Exposure to pesticides as risk
factor for non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma and hairy cell leukemia: pooled
analysis of two Swedish case-control studies. Leuk Lymphoma 2002,
43,1043 1049.
McDuffie HH, Pahwa P, McLaughlin JR, Spinelli JJ, Fincham S, Dosman JA,
et al. 2001. Non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma and specific pesticide exposures in
men: cross-Canada study of pesticides and health. 2001, Cancer Epidemiol
Biomarkers Prev 2001,10,1155 63.
De Roos AJ, Blair A, Rusiecki JA, Hoppin JA, Svec M, Dosemeci M, Sandler
DP and Alavanja MC. Cancer incidence among glyphosate-exposed pesticide
applicators in the agricultural health study. Environ Health Perspect
2005, 113, 49-54.
The Institute of Science in Society, PO Box 32097, London NW1 OXR
telephone: [44 20 8452 2729] [44 20 7272 5636]
General Enquiries sam@i-sis.org.uk - Website/Mailing List
press-release@i-sis.org.uk - ISIS Director m.w.ho@i-sis.org.uk

****************************************************************************
****************************
This GMO news service is underwritten by a generous grant from the Newman's
Own Foundation, edited by Thomas Wittman and is a production of the
Ecological Farming Association www.eco-farm.org <http://www.eco-farm.org/>
****************************************************************************
****************************
  New research findings are raising serious concerns over the safety of
the most commonly used herbicide, and should be sending shockwaves
through proponents of genetically modified (GM) crops made tolerant to
the herbicide, which now account for 75% of all GM crops in the world.
Worse yet, the most common formulation of the herbicide is even more
toxic than the herbicide by itself, and is made by the same biotech
giant that created the herbicide tolerant GM crops.
Broad-spectrum herbicide glyphosate (N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine),
commonly sold in the commercial formulation Roundup (Monsanto company,
St. Louis, Missouri USA) has been frequently used both on crops and
non-crops areas world wide since it was introduced in the 1970s. Roundup
is a combination of glyphosate with other chemicals including a
surfactant (detergent) polyoxyethyleneamine that enhance the spreading
of the spray droplets on the leaves of plants. The use of Roundup has
gone up especially in countries growing Roundup-tolerant GM crops
created by Monsanto.
Glyphosate kills plants by inhibiting the enzyme,
5-enolpyruvoyl-shikimate-3-phosphate synthetase (EPSPS), essential for
the formation of aromatic amino acids such as phenylalanine, tyrosine
and tryptophan; which leads onto vitamins and many secondary metabolites
such as folates, ubiquinones and naphthoquines. It is believed to be
rather specific in action and less toxic than other herbicides, because
the shikimate pathway is not present in mammals and humans. However,
glyphosate acts by preventing the binding of phosphoenol pyruvate to the
active site of the enzyme, and phosphoenol pyruvate is a core metabolite
present in all organisms; thus it has the potential to affect other
metabolic pathways. This is borne out by many reports of toxicities
associated with the herbicide reviewed in the Independent Science Panel
Report, The Case for a GM-free Sustainable World [1].
An epidemiological study in the Ontario farming populations showed that
glyphosate exposure nearly doubled the risk of late spontaneous
abortions [2], and Prof. Eric-Giles Seralini and his research team from
Caen University in France decided to find out more about the effects of
the herbicide on cells from the human placenta.
They have now shown that glyphosate is toxic to human placental cells,
killing a large proportion of them after 18 hr of exposure at
concentrations below that in agricultural use [3]. Moreover, Roundup is
always more toxic than its active ingredient, glyphosate; at least by
two-fold. The effect increased with time, and was obtained with
concentrations of Roundup 10 times lower than agricultural use.
The enzyme aromatase is responsible for making the female hormones
estrogens from androgens (the male hormones). Glyphosate interacts with
the active site of the enzyme but its effect on enzyme activity was
minimal unless Roundup was present.
Interestingly, Roundup increased enzyme activity after 1 h of
incubation, possibly because of its surfactant effect in making the
androgen substrate more available to the enzyme. But at 18h incubation,
Roundup invariably inhibited enzyme activity; the inhibition being
associated with a decrease in mRNA synthesis, suggesting that Roundup
decreased the rate of gene transcription. Seralini and colleagues
suggest that other ingredients in the Roundup formulation enhance the
availability or accumulation of glyphosate in cells.
There is, indeed, direct evidence that glyphosate inhibits RNA
transcription in animals at a concentration well below the level that is
recommended for commercial spray application Transcription was inhibited
and embryonic development delayed in sea urchins following exposure to
low levels of the herbicide and/or the surfactant polyoxyethyleneamine.
The pesticide should be considered a health concern by inhalation during
spraying [4].
New research shows that a brief exposure to commercial glyphosate caused
liver damage in rats, as indicated by the leakage of intracellular liver
enzymes. In this study, glyphosate and its surfactant in Roundup were
also found to act in synergy to increase damage to the liver [5].
Three recent case-control studies suggested an association between
glyphosate use and the risk of non-Hodgkin lymphoma [6-8]; while a
prospective cohort study in Iowa and North Carolina that includes more
than 54 315 private and commercial licensed pesticide applicators
suggested a link between glyphosate use and multiple myoeloma [9].
Myeloma has been associated with agents that cause either DNA damage or
immune suppression. These studies did not distinguish between Roundup
and glyphosate, and it would be important for that to be done.
There is now a wealth of evidence that glyphosate requires worldwide
health warnings and new regulatory review. Meanwhile, its use should be
reduced to a minimum as a matter of prudent precaution.
References
The Case for a GM-Free Sustainable World, Chapter 7, ISIS & TWN, London
& Penang, 2003.
Savitz DA, Arbuckle , Kaczor D, Curtis KM. Male pesticide exposure and
pregnancy outcome. Am J Epidemiol 2000, 146, 1025-36.
Richard S, Moslemi S, Sipahutar H, Benachour N and Seralini G-E.
Differential effects of glyphosate and Roundup on human placental cells
and aromatases
Marc J, Le Breton M, CormierP, Morales J, Belle´R and Mulner-Lorillo O.
A glyphosate-based pesticide impinges on transcription. Toxicology and
Applied Pharmacology 2005, 203, 1-8.
Benedetti AL, de Lourdes Vituri C, Trentin AG, Dominguesc MAC and
Alvarez-Silva M. The effects of sub-chronic exposure of Wistar rats to
the herbicide Glyphosate-Biocarb. Toxicology Letters 2004, 153, 227 32.
De Roos AH, Zahm SH, Cantor KP, et al. Integrative assessment of
multiple pesticides as risk factors for non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma among
men. Occup Environ Med 2003, 60, E11
http://oem.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/60/9/e11
Hardell L, Eriksson M, Nordstrom M. Exposure to pesticides as risk
factor for non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma and hairy cell leukemia: pooled
analysis of two Swedish case-control studies. Leuk Lymphoma 2002,
43,1043 1049.
McDuffie HH, Pahwa P, McLaughlin JR, Spinelli JJ, Fincham S, Dosman JA,
et al. 2001. Non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma and specific pesticide exposures in
men: cross-Canada study of pesticides and health. 2001, Cancer Epidemiol
Biomarkers Prev 2001,10,1155 63.
De Roos AJ, Blair A, Rusiecki JA, Hoppin JA, Svec M, Dosemeci M, Sandler
DP and Alavanja MC. Cancer incidence among glyphosate-exposed pesticide
applicators in the agricultural health study. Environ Health Perspect
2005, 113, 49-54.
The Institute of Science in Society, PO Box 32097, London NW1 OXR
telephone: [44 20 8452 2729] [44 20 7272 5636]
General Enquiries sam@i-sis.org.uk - Website/Mailing List
press-release@i-sis.org.uk - ISIS Director m.w.ho@i-sis.org.uk

****************************************************************************
****************************
This GMO news service is underwritten by a generous grant from the Newman's
Own Foundation, edited by Thomas Wittman and is a production of the
Ecological Farming Association www.eco-farm.org <http://www.eco-farm.org/>
****************************************************************************
****************************
 New research findings are raising serious concerns over the safety of
the most commonly used herbicide, and should be sending shockwaves
through proponents of genetically modified (GM) crops made tolerant to
the herbicide, which now account for 75% of all GM crops in the world.
Worse yet, the most common formulation of the herbicide is even more
toxic than the herbicide by itself, and is made by the same biotech
giant that created the herbicide tolerant GM crops.
Broad-spectrum herbicide glyphosate (N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine),
commonly sold in the commercial formulation Roundup (Monsanto company,
St. Louis, Missouri USA) has been frequently used both on crops and
non-crops areas world wide since it was introduced in the 1970s. Roundup
is a combination of glyphosate with other chemicals including a
surfactant (detergent) polyoxyethyleneamine that enhance the spreading
of the spray droplets on the leaves of plants. The use of Roundup has
gone up especially in countries growing Roundup-tolerant GM crops
created by Monsanto.
Glyphosate kills plants by inhibiting the enzyme,
5-enolpyruvoyl-shikimate-3-phosphate synthetase (EPSPS), essential for
the formation of aromatic amino acids such as phenylalanine, tyrosine
and tryptophan; which leads onto vitamins and many secondary metabolites
such as folates, ubiquinones and naphthoquines. It is believed to be
rather specific in action and less toxic than other herbicides, because
the shikimate pathway is not present in mammals and humans. However,
glyphosate acts by preventing the binding of phosphoenol pyruvate to the
active site of the enzyme, and phosphoenol pyruvate is a core metabolite
present in all organisms; thus it has the potential to affect other
metabolic pathways. This is borne out by many reports of toxicities
associated with the herbicide reviewed in the Independent Science Panel
Report, The Case for a GM-free Sustainable World [1].
An epidemiological study in the Ontario farming populations showed that
glyphosate exposure nearly doubled the risk of late spontaneous
abortions [2], and Prof. Eric-Giles Seralini and his research team from
Caen University in France decided to find out more about the effects of
the herbicide on cells from the human placenta.
They have now shown that glyphosate is toxic to human placental cells,
killing a large proportion of them after 18 hr of exposure at
concentrations below that in agricultural use [3]. Moreover, Roundup is
always more toxic than its active ingredient, glyphosate; at least by
two-fold. The effect increased with time, and was obtained with
concentrations of Roundup 10 times lower than agricultural use.
The enzyme aromatase is responsible for making the female hormones
estrogens from androgens (the male hormones). Glyphosate interacts with
the active site of the enzyme but its effect on enzyme activity was
minimal unless Roundup was present.
Interestingly, Roundup increased enzyme activity after 1 h of
incubation, possibly because of its surfactant effect in making the
androgen substrate more available to the enzyme. But at 18h incubation,
Roundup invariably inhibited enzyme activity; the inhibition being
associated with a decrease in mRNA synthesis, suggesting that Roundup
decreased the rate of gene transcription. Seralini and colleagues
suggest that other ingredients in the Roundup formulation enhance the
availability or accumulation of glyphosate in cells.
There is, indeed, direct evidence that glyphosate inhibits RNA
transcription in animals at a concentration well below the level that is
recommended for commercial spray application Transcription was inhibited
and embryonic development delayed in sea urchins following exposure to
low levels of the herbicide and/or the surfactant polyoxyethyleneamine.
The pesticide should be considered a health concern by inhalation during
spraying [4].
New research shows that a brief exposure to commercial glyphosate caused
liver damage in rats, as indicated by the leakage of intracellular liver
enzymes. In this study, glyphosate and its surfactant in Roundup were
also found to act in synergy to increase damage to the liver [5].
Three recent case-control studies suggested an association between
glyphosate use and the risk of non-Hodgkin lymphoma [6-8]; while a
prospective cohort study in Iowa and North Carolina that includes more
than 54 315 private and commercial licensed pesticide applicators
suggested a link between glyphosate use and multiple myoeloma [9].
Myeloma has been associated with agents that cause either DNA damage or
immune suppression. These studies did not distinguish between Roundup
and glyphosate, and it would be important for that to be done.
There is now a wealth of evidence that glyphosate requires worldwide
health warnings and new regulatory review. Meanwhile, its use should be
reduced to a minimum as a matter of prudent precaution.
References
The Case for a GM-Free Sustainable World, Chapter 7, ISIS & TWN, London
& Penang, 2003.
Savitz DA, Arbuckle , Kaczor D, Curtis KM. Male pesticide exposure and
pregnancy outcome. Am J Epidemiol 2000, 146, 1025-36.
Richard S, Moslemi S, Sipahutar H, Benachour N and Seralini G-E.
Differential effects of glyphosate and Roundup on human placental cells
and aromatases
Marc J, Le Breton M, CormierP, Morales J, Belle´R and Mulner-Lorillo O.
A glyphosate-based pesticide impinges on transcription. Toxicology and
Applied Pharmacology 2005, 203, 1-8.
Benedetti AL, de Lourdes Vituri C, Trentin AG, Dominguesc MAC and
Alvarez-Silva M. The effects of sub-chronic exposure of Wistar rats to
the herbicide Glyphosate-Biocarb. Toxicology Letters 2004, 153, 227 32.
De Roos AH, Zahm SH, Cantor KP, et al. Integrative assessment of
multiple pesticides as risk factors for non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma among
men. Occup Environ Med 2003, 60, E11
http://oem.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/60/9/e11
Hardell L, Eriksson M, Nordstrom M. Exposure to pesticides as risk
factor for non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma and hairy cell leukemia: pooled
analysis of two Swedish case-control studies. Leuk Lymphoma 2002,
43,1043 1049.
McDuffie HH, Pahwa P, McLaughlin JR, Spinelli JJ, Fincham S, Dosman JA,
et al. 2001. Non-Hodgkin¹s lymphoma and specific pesticide exposures in
men: cross-Canada study of pesticides and health. 2001, Cancer Epidemiol
Biomarkers Prev 2001,10,1155 63.
De Roos AJ, Blair A, Rusiecki JA, Hoppin JA, Svec M, Dosemeci M, Sandler
DP and Alavanja MC. Cancer incidence among glyphosate-exposed pesticide
applicators in the agricultural health study. Environ Health Perspect
2005, 113, 49-54.
The Institute of Science in Society, PO Box 32097, London NW1 OXR
telephone: [44 20 8452 2729] [44 20 7272 5636]
General Enquiries sam@i-sis.org.uk - Website/Mailing List
press-release@i-sis.org.uk - ISIS Director m.w.ho@i-sis.org.uk

****************************************************************************
****************************
This GMO news service is underwritten by a generous grant from the Newman's
Own Foundation, edited by Thomas Wittman and is a production of the
Ecological Farming Association www.eco-farm.org <http://www.eco-farm.org/>
****************************************************************************
****************************
 www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/poisoning030805.cfm



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"Become vegetarian/vegan, and no one gets hurt"
Michael Bush
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2008, 08:09:08 PM »

Yea.  I remember when DDT was perfectly safe and you could drink chlordane and it wouldn't hurt you...  it didn't last.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
reinbeau
Super Bee
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Gender: Female
Posts: 2502


Location: Hanson, MA and Lebanon, ME


« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2008, 09:15:18 PM »

Yea.  I remember when DDT was perfectly safe and you could drink chlordane and it wouldn't hurt you...  it didn't last.

But there are still those who defend the use of DDT and insist it didn't do any harm to the environment.  How they explain the return of the large predator birds who were harmed by the use of DDT I don't know. Wink 

I understand the quest for convenience, but as I said in another thread, at what cost?  Oh, it doesn't hurt you immediately, just sometime down the road.  I only use these strong herbicides against one thing, and one thing only, that's poison ivy, and then I use it judiciously, brushed onto the stump after cutting off and pulling the vines (by hand, well protected), which are disposed of in a plastic bag.  Other than that I weed, I pull, I brush hog, whatever it takes - but I don't use chemicals.
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- Ann, A Gardening Beek -  ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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kathyp
Universal Bee
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Posts: 15160


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2008, 10:34:48 PM »

in this country we equate chemical free with a healthy lifestyle.  if you go some place that is actually chemical free, you find starvation and death.  it is probably true that there is some trade off.  it is also true that anything can be abused.  there are things that we can not anticipate.  what we do know is that the abundance of food and health that we enjoy, is in large part due to the development of chemicals that make farming more productive, preserve foods, and kill disease.

don't use them if you don't want to.  if you use them, be informed and do the best you can to do no harm.  if you really want to experience chemical free living, i can give you some destinations.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Understudy
Galactic Bee
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Gender: Male
Posts: 4640


Location: West Palm Beach, Fl


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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2008, 10:58:25 PM »

in this country we equate chemical free with a healthy lifestyle.  if you go some place that is actually chemical free, you find starvation and death.  it is probably true that there is some trade off.  it is also true that anything can be abused.  there are things that we can not anticipate.  what we do know is that the abundance of food and health that we enjoy, is in large part due to the development of chemicals that make farming more productive, preserve foods, and kill disease.

don't use them if you don't want to.  if you use them, be informed and do the best you can to do no harm.  if you really want to experience chemical free living, i can give you some destinations.
This is the difference. I don't equate chemical free for everything. I have said before that I understand why farmers use chemicals to prevent their crops from being decimated by pests. The problem is simply when the the chemical pesticides used cause mare harm than benefit and when the companies that make them lie about it.

Monsanto lies.

I prefer not to use chemicals because I am in a situation where I can get by without using them. I think bees are better off without them. Mites are already showing resistance to treatments.

I can also list places that don't use chemical pesticides on crops and do just fine. And I have been to some of them. They are very nice.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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The status is not quo. The world is a mess and I just need to rule it. Dr. Horrible
reinbeau
Super Bee
*****
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Gender: Female
Posts: 2502


Location: Hanson, MA and Lebanon, ME


« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2008, 07:15:57 AM »

The 'we need these chemicals to feed the world' line is what's trotted out all the time to defend the use of agricultural chemicals.  I disagree.  We need those chemicals to feed the world based on an agricultural business model that makes lots of money.  If they truly wanted to feed the world they'd teach the people to grow food for themselves and become self-sufficient within their own village, not depend on huge shipments of food from 'somewhere'. 

Yes, use those chemicals (if you must) responsibly, per the label instructions, but understand that the 'data' is bought and paid for by the manufacturers, who have no interest in making their product look bad in any way, shape or form.  I'll get by using as little as possible, thankfully I haven't had to use any herbicide on poison ivy for many years now, because I hand pull at the seedling stage.  I'm busy pulling the brambles alongside the garage right now, it's labor intensive, but if I keep at it they'll be totally gone within a year. 
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- Ann, A Gardening Beek -  ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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dlmarti
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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2008, 07:45:59 AM »

Might as well admit it, Monsanto is in fact the maker of Soylent Green and are pushing for the destruction of all natural food crops. rolleyes

aaahhhh, Soylent Green with cream cheese.  Thats the best.
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beekeeperookie
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2008, 09:09:13 AM »

Mental note:  Do not mention Roundup  Wink
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Keith13
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2008, 01:16:36 PM »

trust me you beekeeperrookie you will never have to worry about me mentioning it ever again
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dlmarti
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2008, 01:37:31 PM »

Without Round-Up we wouldn't have Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.   grin
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kathyp
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2008, 04:20:45 PM »

now keith13, look how many different opinions you got!  what is life without a little conflict??   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
pdmattox
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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2008, 09:41:40 AM »

now keith13, look how many different opinions you got!  what is life without a little conflict??   evil

We can agree to disagree and nobody trashed another member doing it. Smiley

PS. I love roundup and arsenal.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2008, 02:19:38 PM »

>if you go some place that is actually chemical free, you find starvation and death.

That is not for a lack of chemicals.  That's from the warlords practicing genocide...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
danno
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« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2008, 08:23:54 AM »

I spray Imazapyr  (Arsenal), tricloyp (Galon3A for broad leaf foliage and garlon 4 for cut stump and basil) and glyphosate( roundup and rodeo over water). Its my job Sorry
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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2008, 10:00:46 AM »

don't apologize for doing your job. 

MB, warlords don't help smiley , but even they have no control over locust invasions, dirty water, etc. 

yes, sustainable farming methods should be taught, but teaching will not bring rain, or make MB's warlords and dictators honest. 

perhaps we do the world a disservice in the long run by feeding people in these 3rd world countries.  who would make that call when we have to resources to share?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
utahbeekeeper
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« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2008, 11:55:17 AM »

kathyp   I like your measured responses and lean towards your take on these things.  I run a VM department for my local government and have seen much in last 25 years.  I even inherited a 30 gal barrel of 2,4,5-T when I was hired here in 1982.  I was an Army pilot in Vietnam and knew what it was.  I also knew it was still legal in US at the time, but everyone knew the end of that window was near.  I have a fellow VM pro from Southern Utah who found he had a 5 gal jug of 2,4,5-T in his storeroom.  He is a very green kinda guy so he contacted EPA and dutifly registered his stash of AO as a toxic chem.  The nightmare began.  His county VM department was hounded for over 2 years about the disposition of the now declared toxic waste.  Ya cant' (and shouldn't) just take it to any old waste disposal place.  A semi going to a disposal site in texas was finally engaged to stop by and load the 5 gallons.  When it was all over, Utah taxpayers had to pay $9,500.00 for the LEGAL disposal of 5 gallons of 2,4,5-T in 1988.

Since it was legal to spray then, I loaded mine up and sprayed roadside broadleaf weeds at labeled rates along a few miles of rural dirt roads.  There are many who would also ban 2,4-D.  Sadly, the few who misuse it and other herbicides are causing grief for responsible users.

That said, chemical conglomerates do lie for profits.  Tobacco lied.  Enron lied.  I can't really blame Brendhan for his hostility towards Monsanto.  I do think that he has made his distaste for Monsanto a personal touch stone . . . even a vendeta, and I was surprised by his contempt for big M.  However, many of us have such hot buttons . . . IRS, Lawyers, Hillary,  the rape and pillage of our economy by big oil without admitting any responsibility whatsoever,  . . . even Twinkys and Big Macs.  We all have targets to blame for our struggles.

I am glad that Danno posted about the LD50 of Glyphosate.  It simply is not very toxic at all.  I use it around my hives.  At the same time, I don't medicate for mites . . . SBB's and a powdered sugar shower once in a while keeps the problem manageable for me.

Danno, you don't really spray roundup over water as you stated, do you?  That is what Rodeo alone is for . . . . a Glyphosate without the harmful (to some aquatic animal life) surfactant in it.  A aquatic safe surfactant such as R-11 is added to the Rodeo tank mix.

PDMattox - a hint.  Ardenal is spendy, and many weeds develope resistance to it.  For bare ground treatments, tank mix Arsenal with diuron (cheap)  You can cut down on Arsenal, and you avoid a lot of resistance problems.

Record temp here for 2008 today . . . 77!!  Bees will take cover tomorrow as more snow in forcast  **sigh**  Be well, everybody!   JGP
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Pleasant words are like an honeycomb, sweet to the soul and health to the bones.  Prov 16:24
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