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Author Topic: Hives are wrapped up, but the bees are on the OUTSIDE?  (Read 7850 times)
romduck
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« on: November 03, 2004, 01:49:27 PM »

Last week I finished medicating (apistan, terramycin, etc) and wrapping up (1 layer tar paper) my three hives.

After being away from the house since then, I left for work this morning at 7am to find that the strongest hive, and only the strongest one, had a huge number of bees clustered on the front of the hive, above the entrance reducer.

Any ideas why on earth they would do this?

Other items to note about this hive.

1) This hive still has some brood developing in it.
2) This hive was SO full of bees and honey that I left it stacked three deeps high.
3) As with the above items, when I finished medicating all the hives, I found this hive had a very large number of drones in the colony.

Any thoughts on this? anything else I should look for or do?  smiley
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Rommie L. Duckworth
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2004, 01:58:17 PM »

My first thoughts would be that since the hive is still extremely populated and there is no nectar around to gather, the foragers just don't have anything to do and they're just hsnging around.
I'm surprised that as far north as you are that the hive still has any drones in it. My hives evicted their drones two weeks ago.
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Finman
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2004, 02:16:12 PM »

Quote from: romduck
Last week I finished medicating (apistan, terramycin, etc) and wrapping up (1 layer tar paper) my three hives.

After being away from the house since then, I left for work this morning at 7am to find that the strongest hive, and only the strongest one, had a huge number of bees clustered on the front of the hive, above the entrance reducer.

Any ideas why on earth they would do this?

Other items to note about this hive.

1) This hive still has some brood developing in it.
2) This hive was SO full of bees and honey that I left it stacked three deeps high.
3) As with the above items, when I finished medicating all the hives, I found this hive had a very large number of drones in the colony.

Any thoughts on this? anything else I should look for or do?  smiley


I look what in the hell is Connecticut? - Opposite direction, I thought because climate seems to cold at winter.  Your temperature is just now 32 F = 0C

This  kind of medicating does not affect that kind of behaviour.  3 deep is much. How many you had in summer time?

In Finland I put my hives under protection of earth construction textile. It is white and sun doe not affect like in black tar paper.  I do it in December when snow covers the earth.

What is your ventilation? How big is the entrance? Do you have middle openings?  But why it come out if it was before?  - tar odour?

In Finland the knowledge is that opening must be wide at winter, but grid against mice.
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romduck
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2004, 02:22:14 PM »

This hive is my most aggressive and my most successful hive so far.

This Summer, this hove had four deeps and then three honey supers on top of that.

The hive has a small bottom entrance and middle and a small top entrance too, but these are now behind the tar (roofing) paper.

I didn't notice this behavior before, but I've been away for the week since they got wrapped up.

The other two hives right next door aren't doing this. Very strange.
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Rommie L. Duckworth
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2004, 02:36:05 PM »

Quote from: romduck
This hive is my most aggressive and my most successful hive so far.

The hive has a small bottom entrance and middle and a small top entrance too, but these are now behind the tar (roofing) paper.



The sun can warm the paper and it does inner climate warm. When hive is agressive, it may be disturbed because of odour. In polar circle of Finland  it was today 7C = 45F warm. Bees come out in this weather.

But ,do not believe that agressive are good honey makers. I have calm hives and they bring 100 - 300 lbs honey per hive, and give no stings like all kind of hybrids.  My aim is to get  3 deep and 4 low supers for honey.  The extreme case 3 deep + 6 low supers is not good, but you must stand everything wink

Take paper away and look what happens.
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2004, 03:26:39 PM »

DId you treat with menthol?  This is the only other reason I can think of besides what has already been mentioned.
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romduck
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2004, 09:06:24 AM »

I did treat with menthol. In fact (and as a paramedic I should probably know better) because of the large size of this hive, I used the one extra bag of menthol that I had in this hive so it has a little extra.

I assume that I should remove the bag or bags of menthol since that appears that it may be bothering my girls.

Ugh, more wrapping and unwrapping. Oh well.
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Rommie L. Duckworth
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2004, 11:09:48 AM »

Quote from: romduck
I did treat with menthol. .


What is the meaning of menthol?
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Sting
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2004, 11:15:51 AM »

Hi Finman:  Menthol, also called  peppermint camphor, is a crystalline organic compound with a strong, minty, cooling odour and taste obtained for centuries from the oil of the Japanese mint; it is used in cigarettes, cosmetics, and flavourings. It belongs to the isoprenoid family, the empirical formula being C10H20O.  It has also bee found to be useful in the control of mites.
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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2004, 12:07:06 PM »

Quote from: Sting
It has also bee found to be useful in the control of mites.


Sure, we do the same, but why to put apistan and menthol together? One medicin at one time must should be enough.

Also in Finland beekeepers have reported difficulties with mite stuffs. Part of brood die, queen will turn sterile and so on.  Not overloding.
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romduck
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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2004, 12:34:57 PM »

From the bee keeper who supplied me with the medications, it was my understanding that the Apistan was to combat the varroa mites and the menthol was to combat the tracheal mites for the Winter.
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Rommie L. Duckworth
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2004, 12:43:09 PM »

Quote from: romduck
From the bee keeper who supplied me with the medications, it was my understanding that the Apistan was to combat the varroa mites and the menthol was to combat the tracheal mites for the Winter.


Thymol is also good against varroa. My nabour gived only "thymol pilow" and varroa was very low level next summer, he said. I have not used menthol or Thymol.
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2004, 02:29:02 PM »

According to the bee Bee Research Lab in Beltsville, Md. the menthol is most effective against tracheal mites when used in the hives when the daytime temperatures are in the 70's.
It seems to be a little late in the year to be using it.
A good method for winter control of tracheal mites is to put grease patties on top of the brood frames.
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Kris^
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2004, 10:41:38 PM »

The "Dummies" book has a method of applying menthol that's supposed to be less dependent on temperature for effectiveness.  It involves dissolving the menthol in a little bit of warm vegetable oil and saturating paper towels with the solution.  Then place the towels in the hive above the brood and replace them every 2 to 4 weeks.  

Has anyone here tried this method?

-- Kris
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2004, 12:57:34 AM »

Quote from: Kris^
The "Dummies" book has a method of applying menthol that's supposed to be less dependent on temperature for effectiveness.  It involves dissolving the menthol in a little bit of warm vegetable oil and saturating paper towels with the solution.  Then place the towels in the hive above the brood and replace them every 2 to 4 weeks.  

Has anyone here tried this method?

-- Kris


I have wrote wrong some matters. We use thymol in Finland, not menthol.  It is different. http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/potter-comp/mentha_ment.html

Thymol pilow is commercial product. It can be used in August when it is warm and chemical vaporize in hive air.  It cannot be used at autumn, when bees are in winter ball.

Cris, the method you told is the same we use here. But staff is Thymol.

Noe I understand the siddefence with apistan and menthol. Menthol is given when it is warma anh hive has brood.  Apiastan is given when brood has hatched, during cold autumn.
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2004, 07:36:33 AM »

Kris^
I've seen the paper towel method on other websites, but I've never tried it myself. I thought you were using the regular menthol bag method.
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romduck
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2004, 05:08:15 PM »

Today, since the sun was out, I popped open that hive and took out the menthol. The bees were extremely active but were not stining at all.

So now the hive still has the Apistan strips and the terramycin patties inside, but no more menthol.

The other two hives still seem to be fine.

We'll have to see what happens next. cheesy
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Rommie L. Duckworth
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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2004, 10:05:20 PM »

Quote from: carbide
I've seen the paper towel method on other websites, but I've never tried it myself. I thought you were using the regular menthol bag method.


Yes, I have a 1/3 cup of methol pellets in a mesh bag in my hive.  I am somewhat concerned that the proper amount of menthol isn't evaporating, due to it getting cooler sooner than I expected.  So any alternative that wouldn't be so temperature dependant could be good, I'd think.  Then again, grease patties are always available, too.  Just seeing which might be more effective, for future reference.

-- Kris
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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2004, 05:13:02 AM »

Quote from: Kris^
Quote from: carbide
I've seen the paper towel method on other websites, but I've never tried it myself. I thought you were using the regular menthol bag method.


Yes, I have a 1/3 cup of methol pellets in a mesh bag in my hive.  I am somewhat concerned that the proper amount of menthol isn't evaporating, due to it getting cooler sooner than I expected.  So any alternative that wouldn't be so temperature dependant could be good, I'd think.  Then again, grease patties are always available, too.  Just seeing which might be more effective, for future reference.

-- Kris


Do you know that you have tracheal mites?

Have you brood deases? (= terramycin)

You use quite  a lot medicin.

I give terramycin with spray bottle on the brood area, if there is deases. Otherwise not. I have told that if hive does not have larvas, terramysin is vain.

In Finland tracheal mite is rare.
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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2004, 08:33:48 PM »

I'm afraid I just don't understand the hesitancy of beekeepers to use medications in their hives. Antibiotics (Terramycin in particular) will not hurt bees and I don't understand why someone would be unwilling to use a preventive measure to prevent a nasty disease (foulbrood) in their hives. Our local beekeepers association had a combination meeting and hive inspection about 3 weeks ago. We held it at a member's apiary so that the state inspector could open up his 5 hives and show everyone the proper methods of inspecting and manipulating a hive. Lo and behold, all five hives had foulbrood in them. Four of them were beyond saving and the poor beekeeper had to destroy everything in them with fire. The fifth one had just a little bit of foulbrood in it (probably because it was only placed there 2 weeks ago) and the inspector assured the guy that proper treatment with terramycin could save it. The inspector told us that two years ago the state went into stores throughout the state and bought honey from over 2000 locations. The honey was tested and EVERY sample had foulbrood spore in it. The point being that foulbrood spore is everywhere and is capable of flaring up in your apiary anytime the hives are stressed for any reason. I for one would much rather spend 50 cents per hive to treat my bees than to have to destroy them because I was too cheap or lazy to treat them properly. In the state of Pennsylvania during the winter of 2003-2004 beekeepers lost almost 50% of their hives.

Do we have a lot of tracheal mites in Pa? I honestly don't know. But I do know that since they are too small to see and you need a microscope to find them I'm not going to take any chances by not using preventative measures.

As George Imirie says, are you going to be a beehaver or a beekeeper? If you have to replace a large number of bees every year, or you loose a lot of bees due to not manageing your bees properly and having them either die or swarm away into the wild blue yonder, then according to him you are a beehaver and not a beekeeper.
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« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2004, 06:40:43 AM »

As I think I have mentioned before, In Norway apistan is not used at all.  Acid treatment is the only method used, which means that we don't get rid of the mites, but keep them in such low number that they don't do much harm. No one in Norway want medication near the honey, that's why apistan is not used.

Anyway, I just thought I should mention that acid treatment not nescessarily need special equipment like a vaporizer.  In Europe you can buy kramer plates.  That is a soft plate soaked with acid wrapped in a plastic bag.  When you will treat your bees with this, you make some holes in the bag and put it on top of your frames.  The acid will dampen in the right amount during the day.  The plate stays for 1-3 weeks depending of the time of the year.


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« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2004, 08:44:21 AM »

Eivindm,
Neither Apistan (fluvalinate) or Checkmite (coumophos) are to be used when you have honey supers on the hives. They are used and removed well before you put honey supers on in the spring, or right after you remove the honey supers in the fall.
I don't know about the rest of the states, but I do know that the use of formic or oxalic acid is illegal to use in bee hives in the state of Pennsylvania.
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« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2004, 08:17:06 AM »

Quote from: carbide
Eivindm,
Neither Apistan (fluvalinate) or Checkmite (coumophos) are to be used when you have honey supers on the hives. They are used and removed well before you put honey supers on in the spring, or right after you remove the honey supers in the fall.
I don't know about the rest of the states, but I do know that the use of formic or oxalic acid is illegal to use in bee hives in the state of Pennsylvania.


I believe the american and norwegian policy on this matter is very different.  I know that apistan is not to be used when the supers is on, but as long as one don't have to use pestiside near food related tools, I think it should be avoided anyway.  Acid is not dangerous at all, and I really can't understand why it should be illegal.  I think this is the same issue as farmers abroad uses antibiotics in the cows food to make them grow faster even though they are not sick.  This is strictly forbidden here.  You wouldn't be able to sell honey in NOrway if you used apistan.

But anyway, my main point was not to go into the acid/apsitan discussion, but to show a method using acid that didn't need special tools. It is possible to treat with acid just as labour unintenisive as with apistan and without special tools.
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« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2004, 10:24:34 AM »

<<<I'm afraid I just don't understand the hesitancy of beekeepers to use medications in their hives. Antibiotics (Terramycin in particular) will not hurt bees and I don't understand why someone would be unwilling to use a preventive measure to prevent a nasty disease (foulbrood) in their hives<<<



if antibiotics are used as a prevention its no good
in time diseases will become resistant to it, thats what i've been taught
there is also a problem of everything in the hive beeing contaminated with antibiotics for a long time
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« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2004, 12:21:46 PM »

It is true, in time some bacterial and diseases do become resistant to treatment. There is a strain of AFB that (after over 30 years of use) has proven to be resistant to terramycin. The strain is however treatable with tylocin.
Does a hive become "contaminated" with the antibiotics? The fact is that terramycin has a half life of 4-5 days in a hive enviroment. This means that it loses half of its efficacy (potentcy) in 4-5 days and half again in another 4-5 days, etc., etc. This being the case, by the time I put my honey supers back on my hives in the spring the terramycin will have retained less than 0.00001% efficacy. If this is the definition of "contaminated", then I'm afraid that my honey is contaminated by a lot more things that are harmful to me than terramycin.
Irregardless, it seems that there are a number of people on this forum that don't believe in treating their hives with medication and are willing to take a chance on their hives well being with little or no treatment. I'm just glad that none of their hives are anywhere near mine.
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« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2004, 05:27:25 PM »

after-thought is a bad kind od wisdom.

I killed my first hive 20 years ago because of varroa.

Many tricks have tried and now things seems so easy. But the way to this day has been difficult. 10 years ago we did not know what to do with varroa. Apistan was good. It is quite expencive compared with acids.

Before the second world war there was no antibiots. Bee hives all died many times  from farmers.   Nowadays many talk like antibiots are some poison. They do not understand that with antibiots situation is now so good as it is.

I have used terramycin 35 years. In Finland there are no base values for terramycin. It means that in honey teccamycin is not allowed to exist.

We can use terramycin, if honeys is not sold or medicin is given in perevious summer or autumn.

Many beekeepers are very sensitive for talking abot the matter and some use terramycin without licence.

Relative with these sensitive thinking is that bees must give real honey on winter.  The manage over winter beautifully with mere sugar.
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« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2004, 10:46:56 PM »

If you won't medicate your hive to prevent illness there, ask yourself this - Do I keep my kids current on all their innoculations?  If you protect your kids with medication against something they might or might not get, Why wouldn't you protect your girls against illness as well? My 2 cents.
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2004, 08:41:16 AM »

Quote from: carbide
I don't know about the rest of the states, but I do know that the use of formic or oxalic acid is illegal to use in bee hives in the state of Pennsylvania.


Carbide,

Not looking to stir the pot in this debate on treatments,  but can you elaborate on this statement.  I know there has been a lot of heated debate on other forums about "illegal" vs. "Not Approved".  Is this a general statement that anything not explicitly approved for treatment (including mineral oil, essential oils, etc) is illegal and I assume punishable in some way.  Or is it explicit towards the acids?  Just trying to understand.
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2004, 11:41:03 AM »

Robo wrote:
Quote
Is this a general statement that anything not explicitly approved for treatment (including mineral oil, essential oils, etc) is illegal and I assume punishable in some way. Or is it explicit towards the acids?
[/b]

The Apiary laws of Pennsylvania disallow any chemical substace to be used in a beehive for pest or disease treatment unless it is specifically approved by EPA Section 18. Any use of these substances is punishable by a fine of up to $100 per occurence (if you are caught using it in 10 hives it would cost you $1000). The fine is doubled if you are caught doing the same thing within a 3 year period.

Items specifically exempted from this law are those items that are specifically exempted from EPA review such as: mineral oil, essential oils, mint, peppermint or any combination of these items.

At the present time the only items allowed to be used in Pa. are coumophos (checkmite) and thymol. These are being reviewed and approved by the EPA on a yearly basis.
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2004, 05:41:29 PM »

Carbide,

Thanks for the explination....
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