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Author Topic: My Dark Queen from the Cut out, Worker Layer, Swarm cell?  (Read 4295 times)
Angi_H
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« on: March 25, 2008, 12:59:26 AM »

Ok Remember I told everyone in my cutout board that I had trouble finding the queen. And then the other day I found her. They have been going through syrup fast and had to refill again today so I took pictures. She is very dark. She is in the middle box and is laying nicely. But I noticed I have a worker that is laying. There in the top box and there are 2 to 3 eggs per cell there. What do I do about that. I also noticed in the frame next to where the queen is that there is what looks like a Queen cell started there is also a egg in there now with royal jelly. This is new from the last 4 days. what should I do about that as well. There is still no evidence of Varoa none at all. Drone cells are even still clean as I took out a secton of come that was mostly hatched out except a few drones and replaced it with foundation. I opened the drone brood to find no mites in any of them. These are in the area where the worker is laying. I think why the hive has so many drones is because of that worker. Unless the queen is moving between boxes and laying carelessy. Here are the pictures and I need feed back.



here is one close up of her she is very dark and her wings look like crud. When I first saw her she was a little fatter, Do you think they are getting ready to swarm here is the other picture of her below.



you can see her good in this picture. Look below for the picture of the superceder cell or swarm cell it is high on the frame in the middle of the box next to the frame where the queen is now. There is an egg in there with royal jelly.



So Feedback would be good. Brendan, Jp, All you all lol.


Angi
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Angi_H
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 01:03:48 AM »

I am picking up my packages on Monday and I can easily get a queen if you think I should re queen.  There are bees still hatching and there numbers are up there. They have undrawn foundation and are drawing out foundation and they have a 3rd box that was added the last time which they are in.

See how dark she is and boy is she hard to find especially when she was on the dark comb she almost dissapeared. Oh and they are chewing through the rubber bands and pulling them out of the hive. There is a nice pile in front of rubber bands.

Angi
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 01:34:30 AM »

Probably a superceder cell. They could be ready to replace her. Are her wings clipped?

Just because they just swarmed doesn't mean she is in great shape. Could be old and about done in. Perhaps she is the one putting multiple eggs in and is why they want to get rid of her. I would let them do their thing. They know what is best.

Yeah, ferals never have mites, didn't you know that
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 02:49:57 AM »

If you look in the removal section this was a hive I removed over a week ago from an attic. Looked to jp and I that they had been there for over 2 ,2 1/2 years I had removed the ones when I removed the hive from the house. There are tons of drones in that hive more then 15%. I would say like 1?4 to 1/3 are drones. So she must be getting low on sperm. Aint she dark though. My god She is the darkest I have seen even on pictures. I would like to get a few more queens from her though Maybe they will make more. Maybe I will run to dadant tomorrow and pick up some queen cups and transfer some stuff over and let them go at it. Wouldnt mind having more then one hive of that genetics of no mites and being able to survive.

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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 02:51:27 AM »

Oh on the Clipped Wings I thought the same thing. But how would they have flown 12 feet up and built a hive in the house attic/soffet. They do look short to me as well.


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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 04:14:32 AM »

Angi, good catch spotting a dark queen, its not always an easy task to do! She is being superceded is my guess, she looks kinda old and ratty. Her wings do look like they're clipped, weird. I would let them make a new queen, you could speed things up by 86ing her, could use her then for swarm lure.


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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2008, 05:36:03 AM »

As long as they are clipped on both sides and there's 3/4 of them left or so and she's slimmed down to swarm, she can fly.

She doesn't look THAT dark to me.  Not yellow, but not black.
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2008, 09:19:10 AM »

Angi,

Did you happen to measure any of their old brood cells? Were you letting them build their own comb and if so what does it measure? Just curious.
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2008, 11:00:33 AM »

>Did you happen to measure any of their old brood cells?

Yes.  Especially at the center.  Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2008, 08:13:09 PM »

I would venture to add my agreement with the superciedure equation.  If their were going to swarm there would most likely be more cells, that there is only one queen cell usually means supercedure regardless of its location in the hive.
Any large hive is apt to have one or more laying workers.  The further away from the actual queens location the more likely it is.  If, from a cutout, you put brood comb or comb that was adjacent to brood comb in a different box from the queen and most of the brood the more likely for a laying worker to develop.  A weak queen, getting into her dotterage, is also more likely for a laying worker to develop has her phernomes are less potent.

I wouldn't worry about it, a new young queen will cure this problem on her own once is beings laying.  The laying worker may also have been initiated in order to produce sufficient drones for supercedure, especially if you removed most of the drone comb during the cutout process.  The bees would still try to compensate for lack of breeding drones even if the delay in incubation of drone eggs is longer. 
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2008, 10:44:39 PM »

I had a somewhat similar situation last summer when my hive population peaked around august, I didnt have any queen problems but the bottom deep was so full of worker brood that the queen probably never bothered to go up, there were at least two full frames of drone brood covered with workers in the top deep, some of them probably doing the laying.  it was kinda cruel because they got evicted not long after.

mine are yellow italians, but I do see some very black foragers around here, no brown or yellow color, they are really black, I'll bet their queen would be fun to find.
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2008, 01:24:53 AM »

She is almost a mahonogy color. Well I got 2 1/2 boxes of comb from the hive. The picture where you see the superceder cell is from the cutout. I have tons of the old comb laying around I was letting them robb out the honey stores. And they have been drawing the new foundation like a mad man. I can measure if someone tells me how again. Can we use the centemeter measures on the ruler? I can say one thing they are not as small as the hive I took out of the tree and they got drowned in the feeder when the lid cracked. they were tiny compaired to these. I will measure the brood comb hanging out here. And get back to you all tomorrow. What ever honey I could not do crush and strain on and could not fasten to frames I have been letting them robb it out. Then the white wax I have been melting it the other stuff is going in the compost pile so when we light it on fire it will burn better.  There are now as of yesterday 3 new frames and one old frame of new eggs. Some have 2 to 3 eggs in there. I so hate to kill her off. There is now 3 meds of bees allready yes there is undrawn foundation but they are all over the 3 boxes.  There is an egg in the superceder cell. As I saw it in there with the royal jelly. It was new from Sat. The cell so maybe only now 4 days old. How much more time Do I have before she will hatch I forgot. Do you think I could take the old queen and give her some capped brood and some bees and put her in a nuc? I know she looks ratty but maybe the nuc will also build a queen then I can have 2 hives of these bees. And there no mites if a big plus.  Also Another question even though they do not have mites should I go ahead and start powder sugar shakes on them? They are using the water tray I  made for them and are mixing with other bees. I hope they dont get mites from them. They are very hygenic. As they are removing all of the rubber bands in the hive. All of which I would like to keep these trates around in more then one hive. Do you think it is to early to take some of the brood in the old comb still and put the queen in the nuc. And let the others build there queen and work the eggs in the hive like they are. There are still tons of drones and more due to hatch out. I left them with drone cells that were capped. I sure like her color though. But boy was she hard to find. The only way I found her was when she was on the foundation. Then I could really see her well. I also wanted to thank you all for all of the help. This hive is sure a keeper and they are building fast.

Angi
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2008, 01:40:44 AM »

You want to measure the middle of the brood nest, not the honey storage or drone comb as those will be a lot bigger cells.

Ruler is fine, just like this. Count ten cells. In this case it averages to be 4.8 (note the beginning is not quit on the cell wall.)

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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2008, 02:01:48 AM »

Thats easy enough to do and I have tons of rulers with mm/cm marks. I will do that tomorrow and let you all know.

Angi
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2008, 12:26:57 PM »

Angi

What you drinking?Huh?
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2008, 01:34:42 PM »

Very nice job on the cutout. I wouldn't worry to much about the supercedure cell.

Just keep an eye on the hive and keep feeding as it needs it. Watch out for wax moth.

Don't disturb to often you want her to keep laying. Check for fresh eggs and larva.

Sincerely,
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Angi_H
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2008, 11:34:40 PM »

Annette what do you mean about what have I been drinking?Huh? I am so confused.


Ok so about cell size here is what the measurements were today. The measurements are 4.8mm Now I feel bad I gave them some foundation to draw out. I might go and buy small cell foundation for the empty frames I have here and slowly work those in to them. I dont want to make them get bigger with reg foundation. Either that or give them small cell starter strips and let them go. Will they be ok for a while with the foundation they have now? As I can go by Dadant tomorrow on the way to town and pick up some small cell foundation and what ever foundation is not drawn out yet replace it with the small cell closest to what they are currently drawing from the cutout.  I would still like to know what was ment by what are you drinking??? I am on meds for my chronic pain and degenerative discs in my back and my fibro and TMJ. So that is all I am taking no drinking Just Pepsi.


Angi
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2008, 11:42:27 PM »

Your avitar is drinking something!!!!
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JP
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2008, 11:45:09 PM »

Angi, I would put them on small cell and 86 the reg. foundation. Not good to mix and match. Others will give you the long version as to why, I'm too tired for a longer explanation right now.


...JP
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« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2008, 11:49:34 PM »

lol ok Dadant here I come tomorrow. TO bad I can not buy it already in frames.  Thanks JP. I def dont want to mess with there ability to draw out small cell. Now where they had just honey and pollen stored it was 5.1mm.


Oh Ok Annette it is Cola. I can drink a 24 pack or more a week.


Angi
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2008, 12:43:59 AM »

Just make starter strips out of what you got. In the wild the top would be storage for honey, then pollen then you start getting into the brood nest where the center is the smallest cells working out to the edges where you find your drones and the possibly more pollen then honey. You really don't have to throw out all that foundation.
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2008, 01:16:31 AM »

Oh I was not going to toss it. i would use it in the other hives for the packages. And use small cell for the other gals that are 4.8mm. Dadant has 4.9 for 11.95 for 10. I will pick some up if they have any at the fresno store.

Angi
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2008, 06:25:59 AM »

>TO bad I can not buy it already in frames.

You can buy Mann Lake PF100s (deep) or PF120s (mediums, sorry it did say "deep" here and I am correcting that PF120's are mediums).  They are all one piece plastic 4.95mm.
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2008, 02:04:47 AM »

Hmmm To bad they are in med hive bodys. With my back I could not do deeps. Only meds.

Angi
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2008, 09:47:41 PM »

>Hmmm To bad they are in med hive bodys. With my back I could not do deeps. Only meds.

I don't follow you.  Too bad the ARE in med or too bad the aren't?

Small cell wax is available in deep or medium, whichever you like.  Mann Lake has PF120's that fit mediums and PF100's that fit deeps.  Both are 4.95mm.
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2008, 01:01:02 AM »

I went by what you had wrote you said the pf 100 (deep) and pf120 (DEEP) that is what I had went by. But then again those bees are on wax with having there old comb in there that as that brood hatches I am removing.  And replacing with wired waxed foundation.  I will be gone sunday and be back monday as I get to go and pick up my 2 4lb packages. Hopefully I will be home in time on Monday to install them and the weather is nice. They were mentioning the chance of rain.


Angi
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« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2008, 12:35:14 AM »

well had to put more syrup on the girls today and I checked that frame with superceder cell on it. And it has 2 others on it now. All are empty from what I can tell they are dry at the bottom.  I would love to keep these genetics of this so would it work that when they do raise one and those cells become ripe can I place them in the jars or something like that to be able to keep them to install into other hives. poor ole queen that is in there looks raggity. Although they now have one complete frame of foundation drawn out and capped with brood. and several others on there way. I am not sure what they want to super cede her as her brood pattern is very nice and looks ok to me. Although she does look old. She fell off the frame today and on my shirt i quickly bent over the hive and placed her back in there. She is not very nimble that ole queen but they have built up very nicely. And boy there numbers are high already.
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« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2008, 01:27:18 AM »

well had to put more syrup on the girls today and I checked that frame with superceder cell on it. And it has 2 others on it now. All are empty from what I can tell they are dry at the bottom.  I would love to keep these genetics of this so would it work that when they do raise one and those cells become ripe can I place them in the jars or something like that to be able to keep them to install into other hives. poor ole queen that is in there looks raggity. Although they now have one complete frame of foundation drawn out and capped with brood. and several others on there way. I am not sure what they want to super cede her as her brood pattern is very nice and looks ok to me. Although she does look old. She fell off the frame today and on my shirt i quickly bent over the hive and placed her back in there. She is not very nimble that ole queen but they have built up very nicely. And boy there numbers are high already.

According to Don, aka fatbeeman, ripe queens will last about 24hrs without other bees covering them. I would wait and make sure you have a quality queen before you remove any of the queen cells. Remember, after a virgin hatches out she still has to get mated and back in the hive, then laying. Don't jump the gun. Once you know things are where they need to be, and if you have extra cells then you could look at doing some splits. my .02.


...JP
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« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2008, 05:51:39 AM »

I would remove the queen and use her for a nuc. The bees are probably superceding due to all the stress from the cutout and change in location. Their normalcy has been severely disrupted so they feel they need to supercede the queen due to all the disruption. Start a nuc with the old queen and keep her in case you need her for an emergency or grow a new colony with her. If you split that colony and gave most of the brood to the half with the queen cell you would have plenty of time for them to build up nicely this spring and over the summer. If it was me I'd do my best to save her. Chances are she is last years queen. That colony probably swarmed a few times last year so the queen is most likely not even a year old.
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« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2008, 10:21:52 AM »

>I went by what you had wrote you said the pf 100 (deep) and pf120 (DEEP) that is what I had went by

Sorry.  I messed up.  PF120 are mediums.
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« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2008, 12:49:12 AM »

Ok Cool, That is what I was thinking Cass that way if the new queen they made is not up to par then the old queen can be put back in along with the brood and eggs she has in the nuc. I dont want them to kill her off even before the new queen mates and starts laying. This queen is not even missing a beat she has 2 frames of foundation that the bees already drew out full of capped brood and one with larve and several of just eggs. I have nucs 5 are deep and on is a double med I had made up from a guy on ebay then he made me a buy it now auction. I will keep a careful eye on them. The crazy thing is is they are already taking up 3 med brood boxes yes there is still several frames of foundation not drawn out but there is allot that is and full of either eggs, brood, capped brood or pollen and syrup.


Angi
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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2008, 08:45:14 AM »

Another option is a double screen board instead of a nuc.   That way if the new queen doesn't cut the mustard, you can dispose of her and remove the double screen board and your back to where you started.

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/queen-introduction/
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« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2008, 01:02:58 AM »

Ya I have seen those they look cool. Back from Sacramento, Woodland and Biggs. Got my 2 4lb packages in there hives. Queen in in a real small cage with no workers and no room for a candy. He said to let them sit for 3 days and then just let her out. They are supposed to be italians but some are a very pritty Golden color almost chestnut color. And the queens are as well. Maybe an italian cross. I went by Mann lake today also. Got PF100s for the one deep I have and also got 20 pf 120s for the med for the top of those. They were out of the new style of the pf120s and all they had was from last year but I wold get a discount instead of 99c I got them for 90c each. I have white ones. Bought another varoa screen and migratory cover. And 2 top feeders. Only left with spending 230.00 lmao.


Angi
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« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2008, 03:02:56 PM »

Angi
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