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Author Topic: national health care  (Read 15276 times)
kathyp
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« on: March 01, 2008, 03:19:06 PM »

i promised not to mess in the democrats obama/clintion thread any more, so i thought i'd start this.  it seems like a topic worth discussing.  i'll start with kevs quote from the other thread.

Quote
The US trails every developed country with universal health care in real measures of quality: life expectancy, prenatal care, access to primary care. What scares people is that some people in those other countries have to wait for elective surgeries or expensive high-end treatments like the Gamma knife for treating cancer or the MRI for a hurt knee


"real measures of quality"?  the statistics used to not take into account demographics.  the do not take into account immigrants, illegal immigrants, etc.  they may or may not be correct, but there are many things that can skew statistics.

the country with the largest population and universal health care is England.  they have around 60 million people.  the NHS is the 3rd largest employer in the WORLD.  the NHS system is bankrupting the country.  here is one question and answer about the NHS.

Quote
Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much the NHS cost the public purse in 2005-06; and how much this equated to per tax paying citizen. [115569]

Andy Burnham: National health service expenditure is not usually presented in the format per tax paying citizen.

Total NHS expenditure for 2005-06 was £76.4 billion. (Estimated outturn)

The total number of individual income tax payers in 2005-06 was 29,700,000. (Figure taken from HMT, HMRC/stats/tax receipts/tablel-4).


http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070123/text/70123w0029.htm

you do the math.

the standard of care for all NHS patients is lower.  we are not talking about elective surgery.  we are talking about life saving diagnostic tests, medications, and treatments.  we are talking about rationed care, and reducing care for those with "anti-social" behaviors.  it is now being suggested by some in the NHS that care of disabled infants, ill seniors, etc. be withheld. comfort care only.  some have even suggested that killing disabled infants a birth would save the system money.  this would be done by decision of the physician, not the family.  this has not been adopted, but is considered by some to be a cost saving measure.  the Netherlands and Belgium are actively practicing euthanasia.  in the Netherlands, children as young as 12 can request death.  it need not be because of a terminal illness.  it can be for "psychological pain".

obama and hillary are not talking about providing basic care.  they are talking about providing total care.  we can provide total care.  we can not provide the level of care that most of us expect for all.  we can not pay for top level care for all.  hillarys plan would take over all health care and force all into a government plan.  obamas plan is slightly less communist, but only slightly.  there is a reason that Brits pay for very expensive private insurance and it's not so they can get a bad knee scanned.  it's so they have have prompt and 21st century health care. 

again, we are talking about fixing a problem that impacts a relatively small number of people, or destroying the best health care system in the world.  that doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.

i suggest that an honest first step would be to identify the actual number of people who are without insurance because they truly can not afford it.  i think we would be surprised to find that the number is much smaller than the one thrown at us.

BTW...Canadian women who need high risk prenatal care are being sent here for lack of resources in Canada.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2008, 04:18:35 PM »

Kathy, Kathy, Kathy, how can you possibly say anything in this country is better than anywhere else?  Because of the facts?  Please, let's get real.  Anything American is awful, and the rest of the world will be better off if we just assimilate.   rolleyes

Actually, I couldn't agree with you more, and applaud your ability to express things in such a logical, commonsense manner.  I wish I could think and type as clearly as you do.  You go, girl!  Wink
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2008, 05:20:31 PM »

Keep in mind the British have a two tier system, private and public which is most of the problems with their system. The private system sucks all the doctors to higher returns and so the public is shortchanged and it has to match the renumeration to keep doctors.

Canadians may be sent to the U.S. for a very few treatments and so what? It's still all paid for by medicare.

I spent 3 weeks in the burn ward, cost to me walking out the door $0
My dad got triple bypass surgery, cost to him walking out the door $0
My mother just had a broken hip fixed, cost walking out the door $0
My dad was just in for pallative care, cost walking out the door $0

I don't really care at all that you don't have gov. funded medicare, it is only one item on the long list of why I'm glad to be Canadian. I have to snort when I hear the 'socialism' like that is something bad. Follow the $$. The insurance industry makes the tobacco industry look like children when it comes to spewing misinformation to protect its windfall profits. We here pay less than the cost of any of the private insurance policies in the U.S. As well, 100% of the populous is covered, you can't be cut off or treatment denied by a H.M.O. Best of all the doctor is in the driving seat when it comes to deciding the treatment best for the patient not a squint sitting at a desk w/no medical training.

It amazes me to no end how getting sick in the U.S. is the largest cause of bankruptcy, save all your working life, look after your retirement income and then one of you get sick and next thing you know you are living in a box under the bridge on the freeway. BUT you're not socialist.    lol     Great system Y'all have

A couple of weeks of funds for the Iraq war would pay for all of you to be covered.

cheers

peter
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2008, 06:22:35 PM »

http://www.medhunters.com/articles/healthcareInCanada.html

I’lll not dispute anything you say about the Canadian health care system. 

May I point out that you have a population of about 34 million people?  Your population is just over half that our England’s. You, and much of Europe, also have the luxury of not having depend on your own military for your defense.

I, too, am happy that you have made Canada your home.  I’m glad that works for you.  Perhaps if more people who wanted things given to them would go to countries that would oblige, we would lower our costs.

As I said, we can do it.  If we do, we’ll have to make choices.  Less international aid?  No military support to other countries?  Cut our contributions to the UN?  If we are going to embrace socialism, then we need to let the rest of the world pick up the tab for their own stuff.  You might detest the policies of this country, but I think you’d be a bit surprised at the vacuum our withdrawal would leave, not to mention the cost to you.
 
Nothing is free.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2008, 07:50:10 PM »

... A couple of weeks of funds for the Iraq war would pay for all of you to be covered.

cheers

peter

Amen
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2008, 07:58:33 PM »

so you are in favor of continued deficit spending?  + i thought the idea was to get out of iraq and concentrate on afghanistan?  how does that save money?

wars and war spending are temporary.  what you want is forever.  you have to consider a permanent and escalating financial cost, never mind the destruction of health care as we know it.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2008, 08:12:47 PM »

If we took all the money we spent on the poor and would have actually just given it to them instead of all the bureaucrats they would have all been wealthy. The trillions this country has spent helping the poor should have eliminated the poor class,not created a larger dependent class.

Didn't the Canadian health care sysem have to close hospital doors a few years back when funding ran out?
  I'll have to check on that but I think I'm right,it was for the month of December if I remember correctly!
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2008, 11:33:36 PM »

Universal Health Care = Veterans Services for Everybody. 

That's what you'll have in a nutshell.
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2008, 09:41:37 AM »

No the health care in Canada did not nearly run out of money. That's like saying the FBI nearly ran out of money.

The Canadian military is punching above it's weight in the most dangerous and active part of Afghanistan, the south so don't tell me about we don't have a military. What we don't have are super-military bases all over the globe. Nor do we have the population base to support a massive military.

Not that it's any of my business but what you spend on escalating the arms race like star=wars etc. it's your choice over health care. Your choice, your business. We are not a military-industrial complex nation up here and no-one is asking you to be the guardian of the world either. Going by track record, your interventions have not cured anything in modern history either so the rest of the world wouldn't miss it/your (massive) military.

Nothing is given to us, just the taxes we pay go towards medicare instead of B-1 bombers. The military technological death spiral you are caught in is an expensive addiction. You build a super weapon worth $, [they] counter with a better one at $$, you then feel obliged to counter with a better one costing $$$ and onwards. Most of which end up mothballed and surplus.

If I remember Clinton had a surplus budget and didn't cut the military I believe. Not that I'm promoting parties here just cause and results.

Yes, the amount ALL developed nations have spent on the poor if given them directly seems to have had the poss. of making them better off. Unfortunately, and this is a global thing, there are strings attached to this charity and the focus isn't broad enough to cure any problems. It seems just recently that donors are just starting to look at the whole picture instead of just one aspect. Sorta like vertical integration. But then there is the age old problem of arms sales being such a profitable endeavor that countries arm the 3rd world and any good can be undone by the 'other' tribe wreaking devastation on the other. Partly this is a 'colonial' caused problem when they divided countries by geography instead of tribes.

I always liked the saying

"There are no truths, there are no facts, it's all a matter of style"

cheers

peter
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2008, 12:10:43 PM »

i am not putting down your military.  they have done an excellent job where they have been deployed.

i am simply pointing out that because of the NATO agreement, you do not need to worry about fielding a military large enough to protect you resource rich country.  the same is true of Europe.  Germany spends about 1% of it's GDP on defense.  France and england, about 3%.  the majority of their money goes to social welfare programs. 

i am in favor of withdrawing from NATO.  i am in favor of closing our bases in Europe.  i do not think we should be anywhere that we do not have a national interest.  it would be interesting to see what choices would be made by other countries if they had to provide for their own defense. 

if we try to provide government funded health care for 300 million + people, we may need to spend less on defense.  if we intend to provided cradle to adult government funded child care, as Hillary wants, we may need to cut down on defense.  you can only give away what you have, and there are not enough taxes to collect to cover all the programs that Hillary and Obama are proposing.  deep cuts will have to be made elsewhere, or rationing of care will have to be considered.

if you believe you have a right to be given things just because you exist, how long will it be before you are required to justify your existence?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2008, 12:23:43 PM »

Protect from whom??

Iraqis or Iranians coming over to land on the beaches?
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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2008, 12:32:30 PM »

you already have a problem in your country with terrorists.  the don't have to come, they are there. 

i know you think that 9/11 was some great US government conspiracy.  if you assume that it was, then i guess you would see no danger from "over there".  perhaps you think that no one would be interested in attacking your country because you are so nice?  if we all stay home and don't make any waves, no one would want to hurt us?  wonder if Europe thinks that way also?  no defense is always an option.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2008, 12:40:51 PM »

BTW

Quote
f you believe you have a right to be given things just because you exist, how long will it be before you are required to justify your existence?

Once again we are not GIVEN it..... it is what our taxes pay for instead of.......

Canada is the only G8 country running consecutive surplus budgets and actively paying down our national debt.

We neither need or want to spend huge $$ on 'boogiemen' over there (somehere?) as that strategy only seems to create them where they didn't exist before.

Follow the $$. Due to your humungeos consumption of oil you need to project yourselves militarily to ensure a supply. Afghanistan was not about terrorists or you would have rooted them out. It was to ensure a pipeline free from eastern bloc influence for the oil in the 'stans'. Iraq wasn't about Saddam, it is about securing the 3rd largest supply of oil and to build super-military bases to protect it as well as the Saudi's were asking for the super-base there to be dismantled and removed.

Y'all are a extremely bright country. Do you think if the stated objectives were true they would not be resolved already. They don't want them resolved and neither do the dems or repubs.

It's also why research and implementation of oil reducing strategies are no where on the radar. We'll never completely wean ourselves off oil but we could certainly reduce it by a large %. Us here in Canada are no beacon for that either. Why are vehicles not mandated to 70+ m.p.g?? Why are alternate forms of energy production not promoted to help cut down the amt. of oil consumption.

Making ethanol out of food is no solution either. Tho it has surely helped our local farmers driving up the price of wheat several fold.

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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2008, 12:58:03 PM »

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml?cmp=EM8705
Or how about this?
Excerpt from here:
http://www.marketmed.org/gov_payer.asp?fmmfont=fontsml
 The Canadian Experience

Programs such as Canada's national health care plan can do nothing to check the demand for medical services.  In order to keep such a system from hemorrhaging, administrators must limit the type and quantity of health care available to individuals, which inevitably leads to long waits for treatment and restricted access to medical care.  In 1991, the Fraser Institute in Vancouver conducted a study of patient waiting covering five Canadian provinces, 10 medical specialties, and 333 physicians (representing 20% of all practitioners in each of the 10 fields).  The study showed that waiting time ranges from 2-5 weeks (for Internal Medicine) to 10-42 weeks (for Cardiology).  In an article for Reason magazine, Michael Walker, executive director of the Fraser Institute, described Canada's system this way:

    The total cost of health care is controlled by arbitrarily limiting the number of procedures of certain types, by limiting access to technology and diagnostic machinery, and by compensating physicians so that they are discouraged from responding to the demands of their patients.  There are measurable consequences of this supply limitation in the form of queues or waiting lists for surgery.[6]

In a series of articles for the Boston Globe, Colin Nickerson has chronicled the steady disintegration of the Canadian system:

April 1996: Canadian doctors are moving to the US to practice in record numbers, complaining that their country's national health system denies them the freedom, technological resources and funding to provide top-notch medical care.  The system is desperately strapped for cash and is a constant target for politicians seeking to reduce state spending.  Things taken for granted in the US, such as ordering CT scans, MRIs (magnetic resonance images), or securing operating room time, are a constant struggle.  People needing surgery for conditions which are not immediately life threatening, such as hip replacements, cataract surgery and removal of certain tumors, often wait for months or years.  More than 70 communities in Canada's richest province, Ontario, do not have access to basic medical services.[7]

October 1996: Obstetricians in southern Ontario, angered by health spending cuts, are refusing to take on new patients, including women about to give birth.  As a result health officials are making deals with US medical centers to allow Canadian women to deliver their babies in the US.[8]

February 1999:  Cuts in Canada's medical system combined with the seasonal arrival of broken bones and pneumonia cases are transforming hospitals into disaster areas.  Emergency rooms in major urban centers are headed for meltdown, with insufficient doctors, nurses and technicians to handle caseloads.  Ambulances in Toronto were told to take patients to less crowded hospitals in the suburbs.  In Quebec, emergency room patients were parked on gurneys in hallways and supply closets because of a bed shortage.  A Montreal hospital is a scene out of a Dickens novel, "with bleeding patients screaming for attention in jam-packed facilities reeking of urine and vomit."  Patients have died waiting for surgery and other services.  The shortage of general practitioners forces more Canadians to head for emergency rooms to receive basic care.[9]

January 2000:  A flu epidemic, along with a shortage of doctors and nurses, has tranformed emergency rooms across Canada into disaster areas.  In Montreal, people with non-critical problems, such as broken bones and serious flu, are waiting up to 48 hours to see a doctor.  The city's 17 emergency rooms are staggering under a patient load that is 209 percent in excess of capacity.  There are dangerous shortfalls of beds, equipment and, in some cases, medicines.  In Toronto, radio appeals from ER staff to ambulance drivers to stop delivering patients are ignored.  In Winnipeg, fire inspectors say jammed hospitals have become a fire hazard, with stretchers blocking corridors and exit doors.  Canadian health professionals describe their system as "reeling from budget cuts, bureaucratic interference, and political indifference."  Government officials have closed scores of hospitals in recent years and reduced health care programs by millions of dollars.  Health care bureaucrats blame vacationing doctors for the overflowing emergency rooms.[10]

January 2001 (Reuters):  New Brunswick's 1300 doctors closed their offices on January 8th to protest slow negotiation with the provincial government over wage increases and better working conditions.[11]
The Last Word

In describing government-run health care systems, Goodman and Musgrave note:

    In Britain, with a population of about 57 million, the number of people waiting for surgery is more than 1 million.  In New Zealand, with a population of 3 million, the waiting list is more than 50,000.  And in Canada, with a population of about 25 million, the waiting list is more than 250,000.[12]

Runaway costs associated with the Medicare program in the US belie the notion that government-funded plans are the answer to the health care crisis.  The single most important factor in controlling medical costs is the presence of financial incentives for health care consumers to seek cost-effective care.  Yet, Medicare officials fail to take action against hospitals which routinely waive co-insurance and deductibles for their patients.[13]

Moreover, government programs are not particularly efficient.  The low administrative costs claimed for the Medicare program do not take into account the billions of dollars spent each year for unnecessary medical treatment (See A System Out of Control and Studies on Avoidable Medical Care).  And Medicaid is notorious for being a procedural nightmare:  "The complexity of this particular (New York State) Medicaid system is reflected in the huge procedure manuals sent to physicians: the instructions for filing a one-page billing form run for 135 pages, followed by 260 pages of procedural codes."[14]

A national health system is not the answer to the health care crisis.  Any government health care program is inconsistent with limited government and respect for individual liberty and would simply be a massive wealth re-distribution scheme. 

As a practical matter, whom would you rather have building your house, supplying the grocery store, teaching your child and treating your illnesses?:  A government worker whose pay is only loosely tied to performance or a market player whose next paycheck depends on providing you with high quality, reasonably-priced goods and services.


Don't go there with the oil thing,
Unless you bicycle your way around Canada,I think you're using it too.And I do not believe Canada is 100 percent self sufficient in energy.I've been to Canada and I see cars at gas pumps there.Where does that come from?
 Middle East I bet!Or Venezuela.
And do you think for a minute If the US pulled everything back to the good old homeground the world would be at peace?
I think you would see China pulverizing Taiwan,move onto Japan and take over the Latin Americas and possibly all of South America. Then Canada would be next in the conquest to surround the US.
 And don't think for a minute Russia would not retake all it has lost in the last years.
  Hmmmm!!!!
  Goodbye Germany,Poland France Spain,Welcome to the USSR!!
Not to mention the economic setbacks from the loss of our military base closures.
 And since all will be better at home without our vast military spending we can bring the jobs back here we exported to Canada!! 
   That would be the frosting on  the cake!!
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2008, 01:13:18 PM »

Canada has the #2 amount of oil in the world.

And you are 100% correct that we have the same distinct lack of any kind of forward planning to reduce our consumption and it is something I find annoying.

For example, there is a really nice electric car being produced in Quebec that unlike most of the alternate fuel vehicles is affordable to the masses. Quite affordable as I believe is around $20K. It is being sold in the U.S. and a few other places but is not licensed or whatever it needs to be sold here due to our gov't. for dog knows what reson..

I think I am getting off the original subject of health care and I stand by my original opinion that universal medicare not only benefits ALL the people, but costs me, not nothing, but less than your private insurance w/o the worry of being cut off or refused treatment my DOCTOR deems appropriate. Or losing everything I have worked for because I got sick.

No Canada has the same technologies and walking into our hospitals there is no difference. What we do suffer from however are our trained doctors, especially specialists who 'go for the bucks' to your country. Tho some return as we suffer not from huge malpractice settlement. Not to say we are any better at not having malpractices, but we don't award multi-million $$ settlements.
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2008, 01:26:00 PM »

Buzzbee

The first link is from a U.S. newspaper. Yea like the U.S. media is the harbringer of truth.

And the second is mostly pure B.S. and no-where is who it is put up by. The U.S. insurance ind. perhaps.

Give me a break, Spending thru the nose on a for profit system is best for y'all but thanks...no thanks.

I know first hand by my family and friends and friends of all that some ELECTIVE procedures have a waiting list. But the more urgent the need the faster the service.

Hey, if you like the way your system is set-up welcome to it. I wouldn't think of foisting anything on Y'all.

It's your country, I am content just to observe. I feel absolutely no need to proselytize.

As Cindi would say "have a good life" (at least I think that's Cindi's line)

cheers

peter
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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2008, 03:42:39 PM »



I think I am getting off the original subject of health care

Or are you getting of your real original subject, that America is the whole wrong of the world?

Actually some of what Canada's medical system calls 'elective' is considered essential down here and there are fewer waiting lists.  But it's still not a perfect system, nor is Canada's.  If we could knock the two together maybe the shaken out system would be the right one.  Oh, well, maybe we'll get a chance to do that when we're all one happy family  evil
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2008, 07:33:04 PM »

we may be comparing apples and oranges here.  canada has a small population that has decided to spend on entitlement programs.  the us has a huge population and is considering expanding entitlement programs when we can't pay for the ones we have.  we don't do a good job with the free stuff we have.  education would be a good example.  we can't support the social security program we have.  medicare is out of control.  in addition, if we do government health care and do not put a stopper in the border, we'll be taking care of central america for free.  they don't pay our taxes.  find me a country that has done a good job of providing government health care to 300 million + people and i'll take a look at the program.  maybe i'll change my mind.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2008, 11:59:47 PM »

we may be comparing apples and oranges here.  canada has a small population that has decided to spend on entitlement programs.  the us has a huge population and is considering expanding entitlement programs when we can't pay for the ones we have.  we don't do a good job with the free stuff we have.  education would be a good example.  we can't support the social security program we have.  medicare is out of control.  in addition, if we do government health care and do not put a stopper in the border, we'll be taking care of central america for free.  they don't pay our taxes.  find me a country that has done a good job of providing government health care to 300 million + people and i'll take a look at the program.  maybe i'll change my mind.

The only way the American People can be controlled like they are in Russia and China is to buy their freedoms away from them with government entitlements.  Our Federal Government is busy doing that very thing this very minute.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
BarneyG
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2008, 01:26:54 AM »

KATHY P  WHOS FALT IS IT THAT MED CARE IS HAVING PROBLEMS HuhHuhHuh? THE DOCTORS AS I HAVE SEEN ON MY PERANTS BILLING STATEMEDNTS WHERE DOCTORS HAVE BILLED OUT THINGS THAT WHERE NOT EVEN DONE TO MY PERANTS , THEN  THE DOCTORS WELL BILL IT AGAIN IN 4 OR 5 MONTHS LATER   YOU KNOW WHY BECAUSE THE DAM DOCTORS ARE  VERY GREETY IN AMERICA ,  AND THE DAM VA HOSPITALS ARE NO BETTER  WE WERE ON A TRIP AND DAD NEEDED TO REFILE HIS MEDS  WELL GUESS WHAT THEY HIRE THE HANDY CAP TO RUN THEM HOSPITALS  IT TOOK 3 DAYS OF WAITING TO GET THEM REFILED WHAT A BUNCH OF B/S  I BACK YOU PETER 100%   I'AM ABOUT READY TO MOVE TO CANADA
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