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Author Topic: national health care  (Read 15243 times)
johnnybigfish
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« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2008, 08:39:34 PM »

 Yeh,...A shouting match..
You guys are gonna just love me for my input this time!
....Where I work there are only 2 of us...My wife has named us "Gloom" and "Doom"...I'm Doom!...My partner, Lee, is "Gloom" as he's ALWAYS whining about EVERYTHING!..He whines when the phone at work rings....Whines when a customer comes in the shop....Whines when a customer has a question...Whines when his mother doesnt cook him supper to his satisfaction(Hes 40 for cryin' out loud, he can cook his own meals and can move into his own place) Whines because he doesnt have a girl..on an on an on.....
 As I mentioned a second ago,.... My name is Doom,.....
 I think the world is gonna be hit by a comet,.....I think theres gonna be a nuclear war....I think we're gonna have a biological bomb go off soon which will be worse than the plague, AIDS, and Anthrax all put together..I think theres gonna be an economic colapse very soon in our country.I think the horrors of prophecies will soon be fulfilled. I also think that I cant do anything about these things I've mentioned.
 This is the "Me" that only my family and very close friends of mine
 know of.(See where you all stand now?) Smiley
People talk and complain about our system and how it does stuff...Health care,social security, retirements, interests rates, fuel costs,....Who will be running the country in 20 years...War....Just tons of stuff that isnt being done right or is downright criminal.
 Now this is it in a nutshell.(Also,only MY opinion)....
   Just make the best of what we have now 'cuz IT AIN"T gonna get any better......!!

your friend,
john

Just want you to know,....I still like you even if you dont see things the way I do.
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kathyp
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« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2008, 09:53:20 PM »

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The problem is that with each cycle our country become more divided and less willing to listen to the other side, no matter how relevant their points may be.

It's really depressing when you try to have a discussion about issues that matter, and it degenerates into a shouting match about who's a socialist.

it may seem like we are getting more divided, but i don't think we really are.  in fact, i think we are drifting more toward the middle (muddle) and it's not a good thing.  go look through old newspaper archives from past elections all the way back to the beginning.  in hindsight, the arguments and name calling are funny.  i'm sure at the time, it was not so funny.  the difference now is that we can't get away from it.  24/7 tv news, radio, and daily newspapers, bombard us with it to the point that we despair.

 division keeps us from extremes, and it also keeps us from wallowing in the bottom of the murky pit of mediocrity.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2008, 01:23:49 AM »

America (These United States) was founded on the proposition that every person was created equal for the pursuit of life, liberty, and Happyness.  The opportunity is equal, the result is of our own making.  If someone wants to sell their civil rights for a 10 cent cup of coffee that's up to them, but they had better not demand I sell mine too.

Freedom requires responsibility of action, if you want others to provide for you you have abandoned your responsibility to yourself.  Socialism is the act of requiring that every one be treated equally, regardless of their own ability or responsibility, and as a consequence life soon sinks to the lowest common demoninator.  It sounds good, everybody is equal but the result is everyone is subjected to the same miseries.
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« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2008, 10:15:13 AM »

But you did sell your civil rights for less than a 10 cent cup of coffee.

One terrible event, that was bad but hardly crippling, and had absolutely nothing to do with socialism..... and you watched the inception of the patriot act, wiretaps w/o warrants by telecoms, rendition to torture in obliging countries, jailed ex-communicado for years w/no recouse or even hearing the charges, like gitmo and secret CIA bases off shore, courts not following precedence, war on sovreign countries based on lies,  Transportation Security Administration, giving middle class jobs to foreign unfriendly countries with no tarrifs to protect the US rank and file, VA quagmire, no bid billion dollar contracts to friends, losing a billion or so in cash, patriotic political predators who play on your fears with promises of security and stimulus payments, similarity between the mainstream media and Goebbels' Ministry of Propaganda?........gee the list is extensive.

But medicare for everyone is evil??

Yikes

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Kev
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« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2008, 03:10:58 PM »

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The problem is that with each cycle our country become more divided and less willing to listen to the other side, no matter how relevant their points may be.

It's really depressing when you try to have a discussion about issues that matter, and it degenerates into a shouting match about who's a socialist.

it may seem like we are getting more divided, but i don't think we really are.  in fact, i think we are drifting more toward the middle (muddle) and it's not a good thing.  go look through old newspaper archives from past elections all the way back to the beginning.  in hindsight, the arguments and name calling are funny.  i'm sure at the time, it was not so funny.  the difference now is that we can't get away from it.  24/7 tv news, radio, and daily newspapers, bombard us with it to the point that we despair.

 division keeps us from extremes, and it also keeps us from wallowing in the bottom of the murky pit of mediocrity.

You make a very interesting point here Kathy. You're right that hyperbole has always been around and always been a part of politics, all the way back to the founding fathers. The difference is not that we can't get away from it but that politicians can't. They're no longer able to villify the opposing party in a campaign and then quietly compromise with it later because (again you're right) of the 24 hour news cycle. Their "base" will tar and feather them instantly. 200 years ago the term was up before the base found out about it.

I disagree that the middle is equivalent to mediocrity. If fascism is the right's extreme and communism is the left's extreme, I think I'll stick to the middle.

The beauty of our representative form of democracy is that it forces compromise so that the majority is not able simply to always run roughshod over the minority.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2008, 03:20:41 PM »

Cage drivers drive cars.

As for mandatory this and that, I an completely sick and tired of people butting their noses into my business by assuming I'm too stupid to wear a seatbelt or a helmet.  I can take care of myself (now insert the rant about how everyone has to pay for stupidity which justifies yet more and more laws), and I do.  Just don't tell me how to keep myself safe, I can figure it out myself. 

This argument continues everywhere, with those who feel the need to 'help' everyone vs. those who want to see people help themselves first - I'm in the latter camp.  You can't protect enough stupid people from enough stupidity without robbing those of us who aren't stupid of our freedoms. 

Socialism creeps in on the backs of those who think they're doing good.
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kathyp
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« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2008, 07:42:15 PM »

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One terrible event, that was bad but hardly crippling, and had absolutely nothing to do with socialism..... and you watched the inception of the patriot act, wiretaps w/o warrants by telecoms, rendition to torture in obliging countries, jailed ex-communicado for years w/no recouse or even hearing the charges, like gitmo and secret CIA bases off shore, courts not following precedence, war on sovreign countries based on lies,  Transportation Security Administration, giving middle class jobs to foreign unfriendly countries with no tarrifs to protect the US rank and file, VA quagmire, no bid billion dollar contracts to friends, losing a billion or so in cash, patriotic political predators who play on your fears with promises of security and stimulus payments, similarity between the mainstream media and Goebbels' Ministry of Propaganda?........gee the list is extensive

the argument over this stuff is getting old, so i think i'll leave it after this.

you show a remarkable lack of knowledge of history and a tendency to parrot liberal web sites.  it seems to me that it is the left who is doing the fear mongering about men in black snooping through our library accounts, and listening to our phone calls.

yes, some potentially intrusive measures have been taken.  they are certainly less invasive and intimidating than those taken during ww2.  yes, we had a bad thing happen on 9/11 and no it didn't take us down.  like most liberals, you seem to think that 9/11 was both the beginning and the end of attacks.  it was this very thinking that led us to ignore almost 30 years of growing violence by islamic terrorists, and will lead us to miss the next attacks.  it is also this 'head in the sand' thinking that has ignored many attacks in other countries and many small successful, and other  fortunately thwarted attacks here.  2 bit terrorists, one of you called them.  maybe that is true, but they seem to be willing to keep at it until they get it right.

i don't think we should have secret camps or gitmo.  i think the info they have should be wrung from them, and they should be executed on the spot.  unfortunately, they won't put me in charge........
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2008, 07:49:25 PM »

i don't think we should have secret camps or gitmo.  i think the info they have should be wrung from them, and they should be executed on the spot.  unfortunately, they won't put me in charge........


You have my vote!

Steve
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« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2008, 08:39:17 PM »

Mine too.  And proud of it!  Wink
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« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2008, 09:28:12 PM »

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i don't think we should have secret camps or gitmo.  i think the info they have should be wrung from them, and they should be executed on the spot.  unfortunately, they won't put me in charge........

Fortunately wiser heads exist.

I don't think we should have the secret prisons. I don't don't think we should be executing people. And I don't think people who want secret prisons removal of civil rights in the name of security should be in charge.

But also it seems that has nothing to do with health care. Unless you count torture as a form of health care.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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Kev
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« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2008, 08:38:44 PM »

As for mandatory this and that, I an completely sick and tired of people butting their noses into my business by assuming I'm too stupid to wear a seatbelt or a helmet.  I can take care of myself (now insert the rant about how everyone has to pay for stupidity which justifies yet more and more laws), and I do.  Just don't tell me how to keep myself safe, I can figure it out myself. 

I wasn't picking on you personally, but here's the problem I have with this argument:

Maybe you do wear a helmet, but in NH and elsewhere lots of folks don't. They want freedom when they want it but without taking responsibility for the consequences. They want the rest of us to shoulder the burden for that.

So they don't want to be told to wear a motorcycle helmet or a seatbelt or to buy health insurance. But if they crack their head open on the pavement or eat the steering wheel, they still want part of my insurance payment to foot the bill to clean up the mess. They still want the ambulance to come and the ER doc and the neurosurgeon to take care of them.

So I feel like if I'm paying for part of the bill, I have a right to expect that the law will safeguard my investment by attempting to force everyone to act responsibly. It the same argument with car insurance.

Because at the end of the day, people who refuse to wear seat belts or helmets are not going to be willing to pay higher life insurance premiums or health insurance premiums based on their right to choose a more risky lifestyle.

And I'll answer your question before you ask it. Should people pay higher premiums based on their weight or their eating habits? We already do this with life insurance. So why should health insurance be exempt from risk adjustment? If you don't take care of yourself, your health insurance should cost more, with some possible exceptions for people with genetic disorders over which they have no control. (That should open up a can of worms over what is and isn't genetic eh?)

This isn't about rights. It's about basic fairness.

It annoys me to no end that we pay tons and tons of money to treat smoking related disease and then people still try to stop increasing taxes on tobacco.


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« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2008, 09:16:00 PM »

kev, you ask the right question "why should i pay" but you draw the wrong conclusion.  you think the solution is to regulate.  that path is a dangerous one.  who decides what is considered dangerous behavior?  i have horses.  should i pay more in health insurance or life insurance because horses are dangerous?  if you off road, or ski, or sky dive, should you pay more?  i smoke, but i work out almost every day and am in excellent shape for an old lady.  i go to the store and watch some 300 pounder buy crap and it makes me mad.  very often, they do it with food stamps.  obesity related health expenses are as high as those attributed to smokers.  who will decide that someone weighs enough that their insurance should be higher?  should food stamps be withheld from those who are obese?  maybe someone who drives a Honda should pay more in car insurance and health insurance than a person who drives an SUV?  what if you ride a bike?  helmet or no, if you are on a bike and hit by a car, you are a red smear on the pavement.

if you are going to adjust health insurance for risk, fine.  you might also consider withholding care from those who have no insurance.  after all, someone with  no insurance should not take risks.  if i have to pay for someone elses insurance, i expect them to take no risks.  they should not be having children.  they shouldn't even own a dog.  a risk free lifestyle ought to be a condition of free health care.  a slim body ought to be a condition of food stamps.  if you are fat, you are obviously getting more in aid than you need.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2008, 09:20:48 PM »

Many health insurance carriers do charge more for smokers.The increased tobacco taxes are a sham and you know it. Most states took this money and used it for everything but health care. Very little is going to smoking cessation,treating cancer patients or otherwise. It was just a new cash cow for the government. If there was any legitamacy to this tax,they could set up a fund with this money just to help people with smoking related illness,be it first or second hand.
If smoking is a deadly as they say why doesn't our government make it illegal?'

  Because the money the tobacco companies pay in taxes and the revenue collected from cigarette taxes would dry up. This is about funding government,not helping sick people.
  maybe a calorie tax would provide free gyms across the country for fat people.
Maybe not a bad idea ,but that wouldn't be fair to the guys who run a gym for profit.
 Maybe sin taxes should be spent building churches!!   Oops can't go there,church and state

Tax free medical savings accounts are probably a better deal than national healthcare.Just think what Uncle Sam has done with 15 % of everyone of your paycheck and it is quite clear that letting them run a healthcare system is not a good idea.
 If everyone had the opportunity to invest 15% of every paycheck they could probably have a good retirement plus afford health care instead of the government saying we're sorry but the money we took from you is gone!!
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« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2008, 12:46:10 AM »

Don't you just love statistics? I just read an article about motorcycle helmets. It was trying to make it sound bad by saying that of all fatalities 42% were not wearing helmets. That tells me that 58% were wearing helmets. More died wearing one than not wearing one. Perhaps the helmet itself killed the people.

Nobody doubts... I don't think... that risk takers cost the system more. BUT as I have said before, the soft hearted folks are the ones that think we need to take care of everyone at the tax payers expense, or the expense of the responsible people.

I think I should be responsible for myself and take care of myself and you should be responsible for yourself and take care of yourself. Then we can stay out of each others business.
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« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2008, 01:48:45 AM »

But you did sell your civil rights for less than a 10 cent cup of coffee.

But medicare for everyone is evil??

Yikes

I didn't sell, the Politicians stole...somebody said there ought to be a law, some politician agree and now I have lost some of my civil liberties and I can't get the courts to listen because I can't afford an attorney.

I'm still wondering why Mayor Ray Nivers of Newalluns hasn't been indicted on theft and conspiracy to supress (violate) the Constitution of the United States by disarming citizens trying to protect themselves during katrina aftermath.  The 2nd Amendment specifically addresses that concern...the militia can draw together and restore order in times of crisis and every able bodied person between the ages of 16 abd 60 is part of the militia. 
So Health care isn't the only crisis we have in the country.

Quote
Don't you just love statistics? I just read an article about motorcycle helmets. It was trying to make it sound bad by saying that of all fatalities 42% were not wearing helmets. That tells me that 58% were wearing helmets. More died wearing one than not wearing one. Perhaps the helmet itself killed the people.

I like to quote Mark Twain when it comes to statistics.  58% were killed by some means that rendered the helmet mout--death via tramatic amputaion (including beheading) is common in 2 wheeler accidents.
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« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2008, 08:36:21 AM »

Many health insurance carriers do charge more for smokers.
To the best of my knowledge this is illegal or strongly discouraged by the feds and most states.
The increased tobacco taxes are a sham and you know it. Most states took this money and used it for everything but health care. Very little is going to smoking cessation,treating cancer patients or otherwise. It was just a new cash cow for the government. If there was any legitamacy to this tax,they could set up a fund with this money just to help people with smoking related illness,be it first or second hand.
If smoking is a deadly as they say why doesn't our government make it illegal?'

  Because the money the tobacco companies pay in taxes and the revenue collected from cigarette taxes would dry up. This is about funding government,not helping sick people.
There's definitely a lot of government hypocrites around tobacco taxes. But tobacco kills people. That's a fact that's really not debatable any more. So yeah, they're a sham in one way, but they do work to reduce consumption of tobacco products. But I agree, if you're serious about stopping tobacco use, you should do both, raise the taxes and pour that money back into methods to help people quit and discourage them from starting. That's what massachusetts did, and they have the lowest smoking rate in the nation.

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« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2008, 09:06:01 AM »

kev, you ask the right question "why should i pay" but you draw the wrong conclusion.  you think the solution is to regulate.  that path is a dangerous one.  who decides what is considered dangerous behavior? 

This is an interesting question for 2 reasons but I need to establish the base of my argument first:
Kathy's been arguing that we need to keep our current system of private health insurance because it is market based and gives people the most freedom. Now, I've pointed out a basic flaw in this system: namely that it has no mechanism for adjusting premiums based risk associated with different lifestyle choices. The result is that people with low risk lifestyles foot the bill for people with higher risk lifestyles. My premium goes up when a smoker in my plan gets cancer.

1) above you ask, who decides what's risky. Insurance companies already decide what's risky. Any time you buy insurance, your premium is based on an actuary's assessment of risk. When you purchase a homeowners policy they look at your home, where it's located, what kind of wiring and heating system it has, etc, and make a calculated assessment of risk. They already do this for life insurance products, too. So the lifestyle risk tables already exist. So if you have a life insurance policy, you've already accepted this risk adjustment in one form. It's illogical to argue that it's applicable for life insurance but not applicable for health insurance.

2) You don't offer any way out of this problem. If regulation isn't the solution, what is? Ok, I've gone down the dangerous path of government regulation. I have heard this over and over. But solve the problem without government regulation that forces risk adjustment or laws the govern behavior. Personal responsibilty won't get the job done because not all people are responsible.


if you are going to adjust health insurance for risk, fine.  you might also consider withholding care from those who have no insurance. 

Thank you for making my point. As a moral society, I think many of us are unwilling to withhold care from someone who has been in a car wreck simply because they don't have insurance. The feds have made it illegal.

So what's the best way to share the burden of paying for that care?

Right now, people who have health insurance are paying for it through higher charges. People who have Medicaid, or Medicare or no coverage are not paying for it at all. We need to spread that cost across the entire population, just like we do the cost of roads. A consumption tax or some other form of national tax to fund a single payer system designed to provide emergency care and a set of basic preventive services that I've advocated elsewhere is really the only logical answer.

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« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2008, 06:33:25 PM »

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Kathy's been arguing that we need to keep our current system of private health insurance because it is market based and gives people the most freedom

no, kathy has been arguing that we need to make adjustments to the current system.  in fact, she'd like to see a real market based system that did not depend on employers and limited choices for health care.

Quote
Right now, people who have health insurance are paying for it through higher charges. People who have Medicaid, or Medicare or no coverage are not paying for it at all. We need to spread that cost across the entire population, just like we do the cost of roads. A consumption tax or some other form of national tax to fund a single payer system designed to provide emergency care and a set of basic preventive services that I've advocated elsewhere is really the only logical answer.


but that isn't what happens.  what happens is that you end up with a larger portion of people, not paying anything, and the "rich" paying for everything.  you try making the poor and elderly pay for health care.  you'll hear a scream so loud it'll tilt the world.

as you point out, we are already paying for the care.  the difference is that i don't have to downgrade my health care to crappy.  if i pay a little more for the insurance I WANT, and some of that payment is used to cover those who do not pay, so be it.  it's not a great system, but it's better than a national health care plan that makes sure everyone has insurance, but inferior care.  it is certainly better than a hillary plan where the government runs health care.


the goal is to create dependency.  it is not to make sure everyone has great health care.  do you really think these people give a rats backside whether you have insurance?
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« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2008, 07:33:17 PM »

Well,one thing is for sure,the tax on cigarettes is the largest tax increase ever the poor have had to endure.
  One thing about carding people for 18 to purchase smokes is  the store selling to a minor is the only one that gets in trouble. I have yet to see a teen picked up for smoking or busted for trying to illegaly purchase them.I guess it's only illegal to sell to teens,not for them to smoke them.
 Give em a can of beer and they are carted off the street quick!!
And government is one of the greatest costs of health care now ,can't imagine if they took it over.
  We would get the lowest common denominator of health care.Did you not see Ooptecs post that Canada's good doctors leave to make money in the capitalist system of the US?
Ifd the oversees super economies take off,can you imagine all our doctors leaving because our government limits what or who they can treat and how much they can make?
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« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2008, 07:56:31 PM »

[no, kathy has been arguing that we need to make adjustments to the current system. 

so let's here some specifics about how we would afford such a system, hold down costs, without some sort of government involvement.

but that isn't what happens.  what happens is that you end up with a larger portion of people, not paying anything, and the "rich" paying for everything.  you try making the poor and elderly pay for health care.  you'll hear a scream so loud it'll tilt the world.


So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that trying this idea would never fly because of too much resistance from the poor and elderly. Well, we haven't tried. And you have to admit that funding national health care through a national sales tax would spread the cost more even across everyone who purchased anything thereby exempting no one. Granted people who consumed more would pay more, but no one would pay nothing.


as you point out, we are already paying for the care.  the difference is that i don't have to downgrade my health care to crappy.  if i pay a little more for the insurance I WANT, and some of that payment is used to cover those who do not pay, so be it.  it's not a great system, but it's better than a national health care plan that makes sure everyone has insurance, but inferior care.  it is certainly better than a hillary plan where the government runs health care.


the goal is to create dependency.  it is not to make sure everyone has great health care.  do you really think these people give a rats backside whether you have insurance?



Here you slipped away from solid argument and into diatribe. National health insurance is not necessarily "crappy" Medicare is a single payer national health care system run by our very own government. It is efficient, well run, people get good care. Canada's system, at least to hear posters earlier tell it, gives good care. So it's simply not true that a government run system will equal "crappy care." In fact there is no solid proof that crappy care is ever the result.

My point of this post is that we need to find a way to spread the cost of care out over the entire nation in a more fair way. I also think we could stand to make things more efficient by getting rid of some paperwork that insurance companies create. A national health insurance would do both of these.

Lastly, I have no idea who "these people" are. I am someone who thinks a national health plan makes  sense but who started out thinking it was a stupid idea for many of the same reasons you voice. I do want everyone to have better care. When I look around, the patchwork system of insurance, medicaid, medicare, charity hospitals and other things just isn't getting the job done any more.

(And when I say better care, I mean better cradle to grave care, not just better high-tech care for cancer or neurosurgery. I'll concede that the US does a wonderful job there.)

kev
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