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Author Topic: national health care  (Read 14723 times)
Jerrymac
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« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2008, 01:03:02 AM »

Is it not a personal responsibility to take care of one's self? Of those 43 million how many could have insurance but choose not to?
Why would you assume that reasonable people would turn down health care?

What?

I said some of those 43 million people don't purchase insurance even though they are perfectly capable of doing so. I went a long time with no medical coverage and I had three kids at the time. I would just pay as I went. Then the price skyrocketed (probably in part because of insurance.)

But I just one of those that don't expect you to pay my bills.
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« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2008, 07:15:22 AM »

Is it not a personal responsibility to take care of one's self? Of those 43 million how many could have insurance but choose not to?
Why would you assume that reasonable people would turn down health care?

What?

I said some of those 43 million people don't purchase insurance even though they are perfectly capable of doing so. I went a long time with no medical coverage and I had three kids at the time. I would just pay as I went. Then the price skyrocketed (probably in part because of insurance.)

But I just one of those that don't expect you to pay my bills.

And it was fortunate that you were in a position to pay as you go. But that is the exception. Not the majority.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2008, 07:47:27 AM »

And while we are at it we can pay their electric bills so they stay warm and don't get sick. Oh they don't have a house? We should purchase one for them. Then get them a car and gas it up so they can get to the hospital. Nutritious meals and warm clothing might need to be thrown into the package. I know, let's all just live off of government hand outs.
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« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2008, 10:04:21 AM »

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I know, let's all just live off of government hand outs

i'm all for it.  problem is, the government does not make any money.  they only take and redistribute money.  who will they take from if we are all living off the government  sad
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2008, 10:55:55 AM »

Oh darn. You caught that?

I have always wondered why these people that think we need/should/ought to take care of these other people don't go find a sad case, load him/her into the care, take them home and adopt them. If you start giving people everything there are some that will sit around and take it. Never try to improve themselves. I don't mind pushing someone out of the mud, but I'm sure not going to push him all the way just because he doesn't want to start the car.

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« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2008, 11:09:26 AM »

they don't seem to be doing a very good job of marketing this national health care thing.  if i were going to try to convince the country that a thing was needed, i'd be taking every opportunity to show what the lack of the 'thing' was doing to folks.  this is one of the center pieces of both hillary and obamas campaigns.

why, if there are so many suffering for lack of insurance, do these candidates not parade them out at every stop?  there are millions without insurance, and by inference, without adequate health care, what a great visual marketing tool the candidates are missing!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2008, 03:09:34 PM »

Gee whiz

'They' don't parade them out because 'they' are beholden to the private insurance industry and the very last thing 'they' want is to lose the golden egg. They being politicians and their uber elite supporters.

Medicare for the umpteenth time is not FREE you aren't helping anyone but yourself and especially if you are now paying for health care out of your pocket either privately or thru work. Collectively if single payer financed then 100% of people covered and less $$ out of your pocket than if you are paying for it now.

Who loses?? The private industry and we all know how much compassion and moral's they have.

Who Wins?? The actual people...... not only will you have worry free medical coverage but one of the big reasons that your salary has not gone up and in fact adj for inflation is LESS than what you made in 1970.

Jerrymac .... I hope no one you love or care for ever gets sick.

Medicare will cost the taxpayer per year what the Iraq and Afgh. war is costing in 2-1/2 weeks.

Funny hearing about socialism=communism I grew up in the US during the height of the cold war and remember clearly the list of all the things that we were better than they. Namely freedom, benevolent gov't, etc. yet in the past 8 yrs. y'all have lost more freedom and oversight of gov't than was ever dreamed about in russia. Yet medicare is equated to communism in some of your eyes.

cheers

peter
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2008, 03:32:02 PM »

I have loved ones that get sick and injured. I take pills morning and evening to keep my ulcer from bleeding me to death. I take a pill in the morning and two in the evening to keep my blood pressure from popping a veins. My dad died at 46 because of his high BP. But should you or anyone pay for my meds? I sure don't think so. If I am stupid enough to cut my leg off with a chain saw should I come begging to you for the funds to fix it and maintain a fake limb? NO I shouldn't. You weren't born to keep me healthy and I wasn't born to keep you healthy. In fact, if I and my family were allowed to keep our money instead of paying all these taxes we would all be a lot better off today.

I don't mind helping somebody. I do a lot of things for a lot of people. But when it comes to someone that won't get off their butt and do for them self why should the government pry money out of my pocket to give to them? Just so they can beg for more later?

There is this cat around here. It just showed up one day. It was a great hunter. It caught lots of mice and rats and rabbits and birds and even a gopher. It was great getting rid of those mice and gopher for us. We adopted it. Fed it. Let it stay in the house during inclement weather. Now the cat just lays around, does nothing but let us know the food bowl is empty.   
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« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2008, 04:25:36 PM »

Quote
Medicare for the umpteenth time is not FREE you aren't helping anyone but yourself
   we are talking about a government funded, mandated, health care plan.  you are right, it would not be free to me.  it would be free to the ever growing population of people who will not provide for themselves.


Quote
Who loses?? The private industry and we all know how much compassion and moral's they have.
  not if  hillary gets her current plan through.  she says she will make it mandatory to have health insurance. i believe that her plan is to have "insurance" provided through the government, but if not, the insurance companies will continue to profit. 

it is not the function of a company in the market to have compassion.  it is their function to make money.  because most of our insurance is purchased for us, we have no choice in what we get.  rather than 3rd party insurance, a tax cut that allowed people to purchase the insurance that they wanted and needed would be  better deal for all.  companies would no longer be held hostage by the unions and people would have more, and cheaper choices.  not doubt some insurance companies and HMOs would go out of business.

Quote
Medicare will cost the taxpayer per year what the Iraq and Afgh. war is costing in 2-1/2 weeks.
first, i don't believe your analysis of the cost is accurate.  we are talking about a plan more than 5X the size of the NHS.  if we calculate 5X the cost, the cost would be unsupportable with the current tax base.  also, war is temporary.  it is a calculated budgetary risk knowing that the length is finite.  with a huge government entitlement plan, the cost is eternal and will continue to rise as the population ages and fewer people are paying taxes.  we already have doubts about our ability to support medicare and SSI. 

Quote
Namely freedom, benevolent gov't, etc. yet in the past 8 yrs. y'all have lost more freedom and oversight of gov't than was ever dreamed about in russia
you need to travel more.  see if you can exercise even your internet freedoms in russia.  i'd love to know the results. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2008, 04:49:36 PM »

On March 9, the AP reported that two economists estimate the war in Iraq is costing $12 Billion a month!

That's where I got those figures from

cheers

peter
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« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2008, 05:34:19 PM »

I don't see how I managed to miss 4 pages of posts on this subject started by Kathy P. Especially since she led off by taking apart an earlier post of mine. I'm not going to argue any more about statistics.

There is a fundamental problem with all health care systems no matter where they are. This problem will always lead to some form of rationing. The problem is this: care is expensive and people's desire for it continues to grow. Ultimate there isn't enough money to pay for all the care that everyone wants. Assuming that you keep the payments to doctors and hospitals equal in both situations, when this happens you have two basic choices: 1) limit who gets care 2)or limit what gets covered. Both are rationing.

In Europe and Canada, they choose solution 2, here we choose solution 1.

So European countries and Canada are struggling with hard choices about what is covered and what is not. In the US, we have millions with no insurance at all and more with crappy insurance.

For those folks who posted and said that don't want to pay for other people's care. Well don't kid yourself, you already pay for it, you just don't know. Likewise you're paying to treat smokers, whether you like it or not.

Here's how that works: When the guy with no insurance gets in a motorcycle wreck and he's in one of those states that says he can ride without a helmet, guess where they take him? Yep, the nearest emergency room. If it's Montana, chance are, he get a $10,000 helicopter ride from the scene. The ER saves his life, but he spends two weeks in the hospital and has several surgeries. Then it's on to a rehab hospital to recover from the head trauma. Now, the only possession the guy was his Harley, which is now totaled. He now has no job, no possessions and qualifies for charity care from the hospital. Charity care is great, but the money has to come from somewhere. Where?

If you're in business, you can probably guess. It comes from the customers who have insurance. Hospitals pad their rates for every X-ray, surgery, etc, to ensure that they have enough money to cover the poor and the people who refuse to pay.

So like it or not, you're already paying a hidden tax, and what's worse, at least to me, is that a lot of this hidden tax is eaten up supporting insurance companies.

The US Medicare system is a single payer system. Most people over 65 who are on it like it. It is much more efficient than the insurance industry spending far less on overhead than insurance companies.

The US has some of the best health care in the world. I work with doctors every day that I would trust my life with (and a couple I would not). But as a nation we're not getting our money's worth. I think we can do a lot better. If we took what we're spending right now as a nation and redirected it, I think we would have a much better system.

But I'm afraid our country has become a place where bold visionaries and risk takers aren't really wanted. We're too afraid of too many things (like dying from some two-bit terrorist) to set a bold agenda for our country. No terrorist act is worth dimming the torch of liberty for.

kev


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« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2008, 06:31:06 PM »

Love how you pick helmetless motorcyclists as your case scenario.  Now if you applied the statistics you don't want to discuss you'd have to helmet all cage drivers, too, but that wouldn't do now, would it?

Yes, we are paying for all types of different medical coverage right now, for some who don't have it - I'd love to know the statistics on those who can afford it and don't bother, just pay as they go (they do exist).  They aren't costing us a thing, yet we're going to force everyone to pay for everyone, no matter what they want or how they live.  I have a problem with that.  I live well, I exercise, I work in fitness, eat properly, etc. yet I have to pay for lazy slobs who sit in front of a tv for a living eating every kind of processed garbage there is, getting fatter and fatter, their cholesterol going through the roof, etc - I don't want to pay a darned thing for them.  They represent, to me, those who won't help themselves.  But that's my rant.

Now tell me how the insurance companies aren't going to be raking in the bucks when we're all told we have to purchase health insurance, the way it's been done here in MA?  Because that's the model many are using.....now research what's happened to the costs of the insurance offered by the state to people who can't get it elsewhere  rolleyes
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2008, 10:35:28 PM »

I just knew someone was going to say, "you already pay for it".
Yes we know we pay for it. You've heard of county hospitals haven't you? Every body has.... well a lot of folks have. That is where every one goes that can't afford medical treatment. So all people can already get care, why do we need government funded health insurance?

And now the reason we already pay? Because a bunch of people decided we just couldn't allow people to lay around and die on the streets. No matter what choices those people made to be in that situation.
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« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2008, 08:34:32 AM »

Good point Jerry,
No one wants to make mention of how many "Choose" to not better their life situation. This country has so many people that think someone else should be making their lives better,rather than strive to make things better.If you grow up where there are no jobs,for heavens sake move!!If you work at a job without benefits and you need them,get another job.Lets not give up cable,internet or fancy cars to provide for our families,have the government do it.Government most of the times is the problem,not the solution!
How much time and money do insurance companies and medical facilities spend on regulatory and legal red tape? Probably more than on medical services. I would be willing to bet most medical facilities have more support staff than medical staff to meet these requirements.
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« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2008, 09:56:16 AM »

Wow,

I'm gobsmacked at the let 'em bleed in the street, go find another job, I'm looking after #1 and f... the rest of ya.

Like another canuck once remarked, and this is NOT a 100% rule. (prob. 50%)

"americans are like hell's angels bikers, that is, pleasant(ish) one at a time but mean and nasty when in a bunch"

To new amuricans .... welcome to amurica, watch your back.

I kiss the ground my parents walk on every day for moving us to Canada. I'll take socialized programs that benefit the rank and file over bloated military and world wide domination 10 days out of 10

Yikes, what a way to start saturday    lol

cheers (I really mean it    lol)

peter



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« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2008, 10:21:20 AM »

and we kiss the trail your parents walked to canada.  it's about choices, isn't it?

i came back to amend my post and found that jerrymac had already said almost everything  smiley

sustained poverty in this county is a choice.  if you are of average intelligence and physically well, there is no excuse for wallowing in poverty.  SH, and do not mind helping people when it does.  some people can not take care of themselves.  we must care for them.  beyond that, i do not feel obliged to pay for poor choices, poor planning, and laziness.  yes, they can bleed in the road.  that is their choice.

i did not grow up with money.  we had enough, but it took care to have enough.  when i left home, and after the military, i found myself in real poverty.  i know how to make 5 meals out of one chicken, and i know that if i turn off the lights and turn down the heat i save money.  i know how to tell if the dented cans in the discount store have gone over. 

i KNOW that if you work hard and are careful with your money, you do not have to remain poor.  i also know that if someone if giving you everything, you will never discover the rewards of accomplishment.  you will never get out of poverty.  the government does not reward success.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2008, 10:28:33 AM »

I don't mind helping people at all. In fact I mentioned that earlier. If they absolutely need the help, if  they use this help to move themselves further in life, IF I am doing it voluntarily. But I just can't stand the idea of someone reaching into my pocket and pulling my money out to give to someone else that will only stand there awaiting the next hand out.

OK A story. Short version.

This guy in pretty poor health and his wife isn't much better off. We moved them out of a roach and rat infested house because that wasn't improving their health for sure. They moved in with us. We took care of them. We didn't demand that some government program be started for these people. We did it. They have gotten back on their feet and have moved on to other adventures. Will they ever pay us back for what we have spent on them? No and it was never an option that they were. These were people that needed some help for a couple of years to get them started again. This cold hearted amurican did that.

I don't know how many of you call yourselves free. And I really do not understand some peoples idea of freedom. But freedom comes with risk. It comes with no guarantees. It comes with huge amounts of personal responsibilities. I just can't believe so many people want someone else to take care of them. Because most times when someone starts footing your bills they start telling you how to live.

You might wonder if I have seen hard times. I lived nearly three months in a convertible that had the rear window broken out. A pregnant wife and a ten month old son. A few wrong decisions put me in that mess and a few right ones got me out of the mess. But I sure didn't beg for government help. I just didn't feel it was a few million other Americans place to take care of me and my problems. 
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« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2008, 01:01:25 PM »

\
OK A story. Short version.

This guy in pretty poor health and his wife isn't much better off. We moved them out of a roach and rat infested house because that wasn't improving their health for sure. They moved in with us. We took care of them. We didn't demand that some government program be started for these people. We did it. They have gotten back on their feet and have moved on to other adventures. Will they ever pay us back for what we have spent on them? No and it was never an option that they were. These were people that needed some help for a couple of years to get them started again. This cold hearted amurican did that.

I don't know how many of you call yourselves free. And I really do not understand some peoples idea of freedom. But freedom comes with risk. It comes with no guarantees. It comes with huge amounts of personal responsibilities. I just can't believe so many people want someone else to take care of them. Because most times when someone starts footing your bills they start telling you how to live.

You might wonder if I have seen hard times. I lived nearly three months in a convertible that had the rear window broken out. A pregnant wife and a ten month old son. A few wrong decisions put me in that mess and a few right ones got me out of the mess. But I sure didn't beg for government help. I just didn't feel it was a few million other Americans place to take care of me and my problems. 

And that,my friends,is the true American spirit!!
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« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2008, 07:25:54 PM »

Love how you pick helmetless motorcyclists as your case scenario.  Now if you applied the statistics you don't want to discuss you'd have to helmet all cage drivers, too, but that wouldn't do now, would it?
I picked helmetless motorcyclists because even a minor fall on a bike without a helmet is more likely to cause a serious and expensive head injury. I have no idea what a "cage driver" is. But I am in favor of mandatory seatbelt laws with stiff penalties. You don't need stats to know that inside a car you're much safer even without a helmet, than on a bike without one.

Yes, we are paying for all types of different medical coverage right now, for some who don't have it - I'd love to know the statistics on those who can afford it and don't bother, just pay as they go (they do exist).  They aren't costing us a thing, yet we're going to force everyone to pay for everyone, no matter what they want or how they live.  I have a problem with that.  I live well, I exercise, I work in fitness, eat properly, etc. yet I have to pay for lazy slobs who sit in front of a tv for a living eating every kind of processed garbage there is, getting fatter and fatter, their cholesterol going through the roof, etc - I don't want to pay a darned thing for them.  They represent, to me, those who won't help themselves.  But that's my rant.

People who pay as you go are getting soaked. Because they are paying higher charges than even the people with insurance. Insurance companies negotiate bulk pricing.

Now tell me how the insurance companies aren't going to be raking in the bucks when we're all told we have to purchase health insurance, the way it's been done here in MA?  Because that's the model many are using.....now research what's happened to the costs of the insurance offered by the state to people who can't get it elsewhere  rolleyes

Of course the insurance companies will. That's why a single payer system like what the whole rest of the Industrialized world has makes sense. Our Canadian friends seem to be pretty happy with theirs, despite the horrible news reports.
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« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2008, 07:39:17 PM »

Wow,

I'm gobsmacked at the let 'em bleed in the street, go find another job, I'm looking after #1 and f... the rest of ya.

Like another canuck once remarked, and this is NOT a 100% rule. (prob. 50%)

"americans are like hell's angels bikers, that is, pleasant(ish) one at a time but mean and nasty when in a bunch"

To new amuricans .... welcome to amurica, watch your back.

I kiss the ground my parents walk on every day for moving us to Canada. I'll take socialized programs that benefit the rank and file over bloated military and world wide domination 10 days out of 10

Yikes, what a way to start saturday    lol

cheers (I really mean it    lol)

peter


We're not all like that. Unfortunately at this time, the lines are hardening in our country. There are few people willing to actually talk to one another. You can see it in our politics and in the comments in this forum.

Politically, this type of talk benefits both sides because it can help win elections. The republicans whip up their constituents into hating the stinking liberal democrats. The dems are just as bad, whipping up their side into bashing the right as a bunch of gun-toting fanatics. Of course neither is really true.

The problem is that with each cycle our country become more divided and less willing to listen to the other side, no matter how relevant their points may be.

It's really depressing when you try to have a discussion about issues that matter, and it degenerates into a shouting match about who's a socialist.

Kev
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