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Author Topic: national health care  (Read 14404 times)
blckoakbees
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2008, 03:39:46 AM »

The cost of medical care in the current system is out of control in the US.  Medical services are rationed by what type of insurance you have and if you have it.  While I do not have personal experience with the Canadian System, my son had to have his appendix removed while he was doing an exchange program in Germany.  Two weeks in the hospital and the operation came to $5,000.  Our insurance paid it after some negotiations, but the same thing in the US would have bankrupted us if we had to pay actual costs.

The care he received was excellent and my daughter who lives and works in Germany has had the same experience with her medical care.

The US is behind much of the developed world when it comes to acess to medical care.  Just go to your local County emergency room and you will see it.  We have very good doctors and many of them are fed up with dealing with the insurance company's as well.
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Cindi
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2008, 09:20:28 AM »

I am not boasting, but I had to chime in here.  I am Canadian (well, that is pretty obvious I would suspect).  Our health care in our country is what I would deem impeccable.  There are always people who complain highly of our medical system here.  But being one that lives with people always being hurt, going to the care clinics, and so on and so on, I have zero complaints.  I have had many surgeries, and every surgery has been wonderfully attended to, this has been true as long as I can remember, and my first surgery was at the age of 18, a gall bladder removal, my oldest Daughter was only 3 months old -- and still I am not complaining, our health care plans are relatively inexpensive.  Our health care is good, and I thank my lucky stars that I am living in this country.  Proud of our health care system...and the wonderful doctors and their colleagues that make it run.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, love our life we live. Cindi
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2008, 10:42:08 AM »

BarneyG....

Welcome to Canada. We have enjoyed the benefits of the brightest and best from down south moving up here in both the vietnam and iraq adventures and they have been a tremendous addition to our family. We would welcome you too w/open arms.

Please leave the thought of 'might makes right', anti-social(isms) and rabid fundamentalism at the door.

cheers

peter
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kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2008, 11:02:55 AM »

again, we may be comparing systems that can't be compared.  the number of people that would be in the US system is the most daunting thing. 

seems like most of the complaints about us care have to do with the insurance companies.  it is true that insurance companies are part of the cost problem.  the best way to take care of that, would be to go back to a market based system.  people choose and pay for the services they want without going through insurance companies.  this would immediately lower costs.  have insurance available for catastrophic care.  of course, that won't happen because everyone is looking for someone else to pay.

Brian is correct.  this is one more way for the government to control our lives.  government health care won't be "fair". it won't be better, and i certainly won't be cheaper.  it's not hard to figure out what happens to people when they are forced to depend on the government for all.

BarneyG, it's hard to figure out how, if you are not happy with Medicare and VA care,  you think an entire system like that will be better. 
300+ million people under government health care seems like a recipe for a nightmare to me.  could be a recipe for disaster in Canada too....when our system collapses, you may find millions coming to Canada for care!

if you take our cowards, i guess you'll take our sick as well?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2008, 11:26:14 AM »

and another thing.  there is nothing that keeps states from offering more care.  Oregon does it, although it has not worked out as advertised.  if you want government health care, get your states to raise taxes and provide it.

i know the state thing is hard for those outside the US to understand, but states can do these things independent of the federal government.  in fact, this is something that states should be responsible for if the people of the state want it. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2008, 03:20:08 PM »

Since Canada has it sooo good, can't we just build a walled 2-lane, one-way highway from southern Texas all the way to canada?  Maybe have it on stilts the whole way so it doesn't interfere with the pronghorn migration....

That would solve a lot of our problems, healthcare and otherwise.
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Rick
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2008, 04:50:41 PM »

they have their own immigration problems.  i wouldn't wish that on them.

something else came to mind though.  i don't care what other countries choose to do.  we can use them as an example, good or bad, and we can learn from what they have done.  if Canada, with a population a fraction of ours, wants to provide universal health care, fine. 

we should give some thought to what our own country is about.  we threw out the Brits to get rid of an oppressive government.  we decided we did not want to belong to the government, but wanted the government to belong to us.  we have the right, and even the duty, to control and if need be throw out, our government when they do not do what they are supposed to  do.  this way of thinking was unique in the world at the time, and still is the exception rather than the rule. 

just as a wife or child will suffer abuse because they are dependent on the abuser, we risk suffering abuse at the hands of the government if we are dependent on them for retirement, housing, or health care.  how do you maintain control if you can not survive without the largess of your government?

if our health care system has problems, we need to find solutions to the problems.  the government never has been, and never will be, the author of those solutions.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2008, 11:03:50 PM »

Well, do our best and brightest leave for Canada?
I thought your best doctors were leaving Canada for that opportunity to enjoy free market and make more in the US.
OOptec quote:


No Canada has the same technologies and walking into our hospitals there is no difference. What we do suffer from however are our trained doctors, especially specialists who 'go for the bucks' to your country.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2008, 11:26:51 PM »

Since Canada has it sooo good, can't we just build a walled 2-lane, one-way highway from southern Texas all the way to canada?  Maybe have it on stilts the whole way so it doesn't interfere with the pronghorn migration....

It would be choked with cars from Latin American before it could be completed.  The Canadians are allready starting to experience a little illegal latino as it is, it will only get worse.

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That would solve a lot of our problems, healthcare and otherwise.

Not solve, but it might be a safety valve of sorts.
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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2008, 12:07:53 PM »

I wonder how those who espouse 'socialism' as evil when helping the rank and file w/programs like medicare deal w/the 'socialist' bailout of Bears and Stern??

Just wondering

cheers

peter
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kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2008, 12:44:50 PM »

my opinion is that no one, company or individual, should be bailed out.  let this shake out by itself and it will be over much sooner.  try to "fix" it and it will drag on and drag more down with it. 

we make choices.  if we make bad choices, we should not be spared the consequences....company or person.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2008, 04:14:41 PM »

if we make bad choices, we should not be spared the consequences....company or person.

Yep. If you choose to live in a hurricane prone area and you get wiped out.... You're on your own.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

I do not understand how it all works. Sometimes I feel like it is just all wrong. So some cooperation is having some financial difficulty. Why should that cause the stock market to plummet and send the nation into a recession. 
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« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2008, 09:40:37 PM »

the stock market runs more on perception than economic reality.  if investors are nervous, they won't invest even if the general economy is good.  you have seen days when a bad report comes out about something or other and the market takes a dump.  at other times, there are warning signs that things might not be so good, yet people keep dumping money into the market.  the dot.com boom was one example.  anyone with any sense knew that things were taking a downturn, but still large segments of the market were climbing on the feel good dot.com reports.

a recession is a complicated thing.  generally it is triggered by an overall slow down in productivity and consumer spending.  nervous people spend less.  companies produce less.  things slow down.  again, perception can play a big part.  right now, we are not in a recession, however, we are due for an adjustment.  with gas and food prices going up, consumer spending will go down for other things.  if people believe things will get worse, they will spend less.  sometimes it is a self fulfilling prophecy.  minor recessions are common.  deep recessions or depressions are not.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2008, 01:17:18 AM »

And now I see a headline where the Asian markets take a tumble because of this Bear Steam thing.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2008, 10:23:34 PM »

Pouring water down a rat hole.  That's what I figure any Bail out is.  In case nobodies have noticed but financial situations are emotional situations, hence, the stock market pulses with peoples worries instead of actualities.  In any political debate get it to focus on financial woes and you sidetrack all other matters, including war, to the sidelines.

With bees its mites, talk mites and people go crazy doing all kinds of wierd things trying to solve the probelm without realizing that the problem could cure itself.  Same with recessions and depressions.  Artificial stimulants make a temporary fix ,that needs a fix, that needs a fix, that needs a fix, that.......which the USA as been doing constantly since 1930 and still trying to tweek it just right.  As a general rule the more you fiddle with something the more prone to breakage it becomes.

Doing nothing will hurt, but it the long run it will be healthier for the entire world.  Bailing wire, bandaids, bubblegum, and duck tape cures have a half life of a decade.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2008, 02:04:22 PM »

I guess this goes here....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080326/cm_csm/ymanheimcourt

An important element is being overlooked in the healthcare debate between the Democratic presidential candidates: namely, whether the plans they propose are constitutional.
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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2008, 05:58:44 PM »

it's not going to be a problem for them.  forcing people to buy insurance is not the goal.  a government run, tax payer funded, health care system is the goal.  do not thing that hillary has changed her views since her first go at this.  as for obama, he does not have enough experience to have put together a plan that can be shoved through.  i have read his web page and his proposals.  he will either end up disappointing the voters, or adopting the government funded programs.  there is no way around it that i can see.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2008, 10:10:50 PM »

The number one cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical expenses.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1

Not addressing the issue of national health care for all US citizens is simply irresponsible.

Health care is currently not accessible to 43 million in the US.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-223.pdf
The number of people with private insurance is decreasing not increasing.

I believe we should have health care available to all US citizens. I believe it is a responsible thing for a country to do for it's citizens. It is very hard to go after life liberty and the pursuit of happiness from a hospital bed.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

 
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2008, 11:29:26 PM »

Is it not a personal responsibility to take care of one's self? Of those 43 million how many could have insurance but choose not to?
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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2008, 11:43:51 PM »

Is it not a personal responsibility to take care of one's self? Of those 43 million how many could have insurance but choose not to?

Why would you assume that reasonable people would turn down health care?

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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