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Author Topic: Clinton or Obama?  (Read 10727 times)
Frantz
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« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2008, 11:25:10 AM »

Very well said KathyP, we are not given a chance here to vote for a conservative. As I said before the "Pro Polititians" (Macain etc) are just not going to do it for us. We as a nation I think are getting to broad, to big, and with too many micro cumminities and micro cultures to pay attention to the big picture anymore, or at least that is what is seems like. I think that there are too many people who have become detached from caring about anything but a quick sound bite or headline. They will grab onto any quick little bite and run with it. (like the Obama was raised as a muslim thing). No one, I take that back about 95% of people do not take the time to do any research on things. They just repeat what the news or the headlines said the night before.

I have experienced universal health care in Russia, Japan, Armenia, England, and other smaller countries. I have yet to see a care system that provides better care than ours. I shutter when I read or hear people preaching that we are behind in health care compared to other countries. I realize that there are statistics out there people, but you have to realize that most other countries out there are the size of Montana. It is not hard to find other countries that do a good job with universal health care when you figure their universal health care encomapsses as many people as one of our small to medium sized companies. Again, no research, just what the news media feeds us.
I have no idea why we would want a Post Office type of health care system in this country. Do we really believe that the government could step in and set up a system for us that would be fair, efficient, and run smoothly for longer than ten years. Is there any government program that we could use as a model for efficiency? IRS, Post Office, Social Security, No Child left behind, anything. Nothing out there republican, democrat, or the like has ever been done with any long term effectiveness.
Also, just one last thing, Clinton was elected president not because of an oncoming recession from the Bush years, but for one reason and one reason only "Ross Perot". Economies have there ebs and flows just like anything else, and like our current situation is usually because of the greed (Mortgage situation) and lack of strong moral character (Coproate CEO's) of the few. So because most of us don't take the time to be serious about who we choose to send to washington as senators, congressmen/women, and presidential canidates we are left with mostly corrupt, morally inept powerbrokers and pro polititians that pay attention because it is their job to do so.
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« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2008, 07:03:03 PM »

Clinton or Obama?
Truly a need for choosing none of the above.  That is needed now for the Republicans as well. Too bad we can't throw them all back and bring in a new field of candidates. we really do not have much to choose from.
 I truly think the media can influence the perception of the economy and the American way of life.Remember when Bill Clinton was running all the talk of all the homeless on the streets? The day after the election they all mysteriously went away. Where did they go? They tried to resurrect them after GW's first term but didn't get much traction.
 My standard of living has not changed all that much under Republican or Democrat Presidents.
I hear people always talking all these people out of work,but it's always some one else not them or their neighbor. I think jobs can be found when needed if people would swallow their pride a bit in times of need.
    I know someone that would rather not work than work for less than 18 dollars an hour.
In my book 10 dollars is more than 0.   
But,thats the screwed up world we live in.Everybody is me,me me to Uncle Sam and would vote for the candidate that will "give"them the most.
 Remember,any time the government gives you something,they took it from someone else. The government has nothing that belongs to anybody but the people that gave it to them.Hope that makes people sleep better!! Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2008, 11:42:40 PM »

Hi Buzzbee,

Very solid thinking,I agree100% Why are so many people blind to these facts?  Oh yea, you already answered that, me me me me give me.

Eddie
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« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2008, 07:36:11 PM »

I have experienced universal health care in Russia, Japan, Armenia, England, and other smaller countries. I have yet to see a care system that provides better care than ours.
I have no idea why we would want a Post Office type of health care system in this country. Do we really believe that the government could step in and set up a system for us that would be fair, efficient, and run smoothly for longer than ten years. Is there any government program that we could use as a model for efficiency? IRS, Post Office, Social Security, No Child left behind, anything. Nothing out there republican, democrat, or the like has ever been done with any long term effectiveness.



I have two comments on this: I'll make the short one first: To answer his question, is there a government run program to use as a model for efficiency? The answer is "Yes." We already have a universal, single-payer healthcare program in this country. Most people don't even think about it because we restrict it to people over age 65. It's called MEDICARE.

Although many doctors and hospitals don't like it, Medicare is very efficient program that most patients like. Only about 3% of medicare's budget is spent on overhead. Compare that to 13% of private insurance. Could it be improved, sure. I could name several ways.

So you can bash the government all you want. I want my government to serve a purpose, such as putting my tax dollars to work protecting national land, and providing a basic health benefit that ensures people can see a doctor when they're sick instead of stacking up in the emergency room.

Now, regarding the idea of who has "better" health care.
Frantz is equivocating on the term "better." Meaning that he's allowing the definition of the term "better" to slide around a bit. In America, if you have access to care, it can be really great. He's saying, well from my individual point of view, I got great care or I had a great experience and therefore it's better. Or, I got care in lots of other countries and the experience or the outcomes was no better or actually worse than in the US.

I can't argue that Frantz had a better experience of care here. I'm sure he did.

My point in my earlier post is that care can be measured scientifically. We know that if you do certain things, like give everyone who is having a heart attack an aspirin when they go the emergency room, they  have better outcomes. Measures like that are what I mean when I say "better" care. I mean that European countries have "better" care because for what they spend for health care they have longer life spans and score higher on scientific measures of quality, not because they have shorter wait times, or nicer hospitals. In other words, they're getting more for their money.

The US system is broken and provides unequal care, even within our own country. If you live in Mississippi or Louisiana, you are less likely to all the recommended treatments for a heart attack when you go the emergency room than if you live in New Hampshire. That is an undeniable fact based on hard data. Here's an article on how states compare to each other from the commonwealth fund.
How States Compare to Each Other

Kev
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« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2008, 08:22:18 PM »

Quote
My point in my earlier post is that care can be measured scientifically. We know that if you do certain things, like give everyone who is having a heart attack an aspirin when they go the emergency room, they  have better outcomes. Measures like that are what I mean when I say "better" care. I mean that European countries have "better" care because for what they spend for health care they have longer life spans and score higher on scientific measures of quality, not because they have shorter wait times, or nicer hospitals. In other words, they're getting more for their money.

this is not a scientific measure.  it is a statistical measure.  if you  have ever taken statistics, you know that you can make them say whatever you want them to say.  however, by your own measurements, england does not have better health care. i use england as a measure, because it is the biggest 1st world country with universal health care.  you need to do more research.

as to what our government should 'do for us', this is the difference between the liberal point of view, and the conservative point of view.  i believe that all things work better when the government sticks to what it is constitutionally mandated to do.  it is not the job of the government to care for us.  programs like medicare and SSI require that there be enough younger people coming along to support the programs.  they are becoming more and more a burden on tax payers.  there is no way for seniors who would rather not be in either program, to opt out.  the programs are expanding as the population ages with no plan to pay for them.

when you are dependent on someone, you are controlled by them.  now you want the entire population of the us to be dependent on the government for health care.  what happens to programs when there is not enough money to support them?  they decay, or the program must be adjusted.  these things will not happen the day that universal health care becomes a reality.  they will happen over time.  repairs not done.  new drugs not available.  research not funded. employees not hired.   then the worst will be eventual rationing of care.  you think i am an alarmist?  this is already happening in some countries that have universal health care.  maybe you are young and healthy and these things seem not to impact you.  you will not be young and healthy forever, but you might be to old to treat someday......

we can solve the problems we have with health care.  they impact a relatively small number of people.  it seems to me that solving a small problem is better than creating a huge one.
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« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2008, 09:06:07 PM »

this is not a scientific measure.  it is a statistical measure. 

Don't confuse statistical data gathered by actual performance from statistical data gathered by say telephone survey. These are performance measures, not measures based on what people tell a telephone surveyor. At the end of the day, all scientific measures are statistical measures, based on probability and confidence intervals. Statistics don't lie, people who use them incorrectly or don't understand how to interpret them do. You can tell whether someone got an aspirin or a vaccine, they either got it or they didn't. You can't make that data say anything different.

as to what our government should 'do for us', this is the difference between the liberal point of view, and the conservative point of view.  i believe that all things work better when the government sticks to what it is constitutionally mandated to do. 
That genie is out of the bottle already, more than 150 years ago. The constitution didn't explicitly provide for a lot of stuff that we have and that conservatives hold dear... namely a standing federal army, an income tax, and a host of other things that the founding father didn't think of. Many of these, such as the pentagon budget, are equally costly to taxpayers, and some might argue accomplish less for them than a national health system.

By the way, I don't consider myself a conservative or liberal. I'm an independent. I've voted for both. I think our current administration is a disaster.

then the worst will be eventual rationing of care.   


Our screwed up system already rations care based on income, where you live in the country, and what kind of insurance you have: If you live in Bennington Vt, you can't get a primary care doctor, because there is a shortage. But if you live in Florida there are plenty of doctors to go around because the pay is higher there for bizarre historical payment reasons, that it would take me too long to explain here. I work in this industry and  I don't think it could be any worse.

we can solve the problems we have with health care.  they impact a relatively small number of people.  it seems to me that solving a small problem is better than creating a huge one.

I'm glad that from where you sit the problem seems small. I see behind the wizard's curtain daily, and it's a mess. A unified national system that provided a basic set of services but still allowed people to buy up would improve care for everyone without compromising research and development of new drugs. Companies could still compete for employees on the perqs in the buy-up plans.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating a complete take-over, just something that covers everyone with the fundamentals and allows those of us who want and can afford it to buy up to a more expensive set of services.

Frankly, it sound like a conservative's dream, merge the government and the market to improve the whole system, because the market alone isn't getting the job done.

The beauty of democracy is that it is a compromise system. So liberals and conservatives must work to find common ground. Blue staters figure have to stomach more cruise missiles; red staters have to learn to live with an extra social program.
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« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2008, 10:08:19 PM »

Quote
Don't confuse statistical data gathered by actual performance from statistical data gathered by say telephone survey. These are performance measures, not measures based on what people tell a telephone surveyor. At the end of the day, all scientific measures are statistical measures, based on probability and confidence intervals. Statistics don't lie, people who use them incorrectly or don't understand how to interpret them do. You can tell whether someone got an aspirin or a vaccine, they either got it or they didn't. You can't make that data say anything different.


sure you can.  lets take the infant mortality rate.  it has been reported that ours is higher than some other 1st world countries.  that may be true.  how did they arrive at that 'fact'?  if, for instance, they include illegals who come over the border to have babies, but have had no prenatal care, that would change the data.  same goes for longevity stats.  if you include immigrants who have come as adults from countries where they did not have good medical care, they may lower the stats.  knowing how they arrive at the numbers is more important than the end result.  you can not evaluate without that knowledge.

as for what you want, it is not what is being offered.  you are being offered universal health care.  total coverage for all people.  if Hillary were to go back to her original plan, you would have no choice in care.  it would all be government care.  as it is, she has recently proposed that people be forced to sign up for government insurance even if wages had to taken from their checks to do it.  i am not sure what she wants exactly.  total care by government or government insurance.  obamas plan is even more unclear, but seems to run along the same lines.  the difference may be that we would not all be forced into a government plan.

Quote
Many of these, such as the pentagon budget, are equally costly to taxpayers, and some might argue accomplish less for them than a national health system.


you are correct.  we have strayed far from the constitution.  that ought not to be a reason to go farther.  dependency ought not to be the goal.  as for the budget, i believe i posted a budget breakdown for 07.  even taking into account a war time budget, entitlements already eat up the majority of the spending.  we already can not pay for the entitlements.  how will be pay for more?

Quote
If you live in Bennington Vt, you can't get a primary care doctor, because there is a shortage. But if you live in Florida there are plenty of doctors to go around because the pay is higher there for bizarre historical payment reasons, that it would take me too long to explain here. I work in this industry and  I don't think it could be any worse.

national health care would not solve that unless you are talking about forcing doctors to practice where the government tells the to, and at a set government wage?  may i suggest that if you live in Bennington Vt and have a need for a doc, you move!  if individuals take responsibility for meeting their own needs, things do tend to work better.  i live in a very small town.  we have a free clinic.  i live in a state that has decided to expand the state health care system.  it is a black hole and it's rationed care, but it covers basic care for those who do not have insurance and lack the money to  buy it.  there is no reason that states can't take up the cause if they want to.  there are discount insurance plans that cover basics.

in this state, we have found that many people won't be bothered to apply for the state health care.  there is a waiting list for adults to join, but kids would be covered if their parents bothered to fill out the forms.

i did hospital and clinic medicine for many years.  if you look at the abuses in the Medicaid system and multiply that by the millions, that's what we'll get under either of these plans. 

also consider, it is not basic services that really cause people problems.  there are many places to get free and low cost basic services.  it's the big stuff that people can't pay for.  giving people free shots doesn't pay for open heart surgery and cancer treatment.





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« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2008, 03:32:56 AM »

Quote
Statistics don't lie, people who use them incorrectly or don't understand how to interpret them do.


Mark Twain once said, "There are lies, darn lies, and statistics."  The statement was progressive starting at the least offensive and ending with the most offensive.  Having studied statistics in college I have to say that any bundle of information can be mined for and tilted any which way including loose.
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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2008, 08:23:14 AM »

Mark Twain said quite a few things worth remembering....and quoting!  Wink
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« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2008, 11:26:46 AM »

For those of you voting Democrat... why does Obama have such support? Is it so important to get a half black president that we're willing to throw the idea of Universal Health Care out the window? The only difference I see between Obama and Hillary is Health Care.
Hillary wants Universal Health Care coverage, meaning everyone. Obama only wants children and seniors. As someone caught in the middle why would I ever want to pay for someone else's health care coverage? Why does less health care coverage make Obama more popular? I wouldn't mind paying for it if it would cover me as well and that's why I'm leaning towards Hillary.

Obama stands for Change....and Hope.  And for change. Did I mention hope?  And (insert platitude here)

And if he or Clinton are elected, that's pretty much all you have left...  a little bit of change.
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« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2008, 11:30:40 AM »

For those of you voting Democrat... why does Obama have such support? Is it so important to get a half black president that we're willing to throw the idea of Universal Health Care out the window? The only difference I see between Obama and Hillary is Health Care.
Hillary wants Universal Health Care coverage, meaning everyone. Obama only wants children and seniors. As someone caught in the middle why would I ever want to pay for someone else's health care coverage? Why does less health care coverage make Obama more popular? I wouldn't mind paying for it if it would cover me as well and that's why I'm leaning towards Hillary.

Obama stands for Change....and Hope.  And for change. Did I mention hope?  And (insert platitude here)

And if he or Clinton are elected, that's pretty much all you have left...  a little bit of change.
And very little hope.
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« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2008, 11:36:15 AM »

Since someone brought up statistics, here's a dandy one.

White men are the single largest voting demographic in the United States.  No president can be elected without a  majority (say 65% or so) of this group supporting them.  White men don't like Hillary by and large.  She has about a 49% negative with the country at large.  That means about half of the country hates her.  This is not a racist or sexist statement.  It is a demographic fact, plain and simple.  I want all you Socialists to go out and vote for Hillary in the remaining primary elections.

Bring on that duplicitous harpy in November.


Then  you will see the meaning of the term "negative turnout"  That's when people go to the polls in droves, not to support a certain candidate, but to defeat a different one.
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« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2008, 11:57:57 AM »

Problem is she's got the powers of the Democratic machine behind her.  I don't believe she's the peoples' choice on the D side - it's going to be interesting to see what happens if she ends up the candidate against the wishes of the majority.
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« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2008, 12:05:23 PM »

Problem is she's got the powers of the Democratic machine behind her.  I don't believe she's the peoples' choice on the D side - it's going to be interesting to see what happens if she ends up the candidate against the wishes of the majority.

Big labor? Nope. They endorsed Obama.  Kennedy?  Nope. That flatulent bag of puss endorsed Obama too.  You haven't heard much from Slick Willie lately have you.  They told him to shut his big trap.  He was hurting his wife's candidacy. 
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« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2008, 12:10:12 PM »

i would never count hillary out, but unless obama really messes up, or hillary somehow brings over enough of this super delegates, i just don't see how she can pull it off.  if they go to a brokered convention it's going to be a lot of fun to watch.  this almost gets me over my depression about our choice  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2008, 01:55:33 PM »

Problem is she's got the powers of the Democratic machine behind her.  I don't believe she's the peoples' choice on the D side - it's going to be interesting to see what happens if she ends up the candidate against the wishes of the majority.

Big labor? Nope. They endorsed Obama.  Kennedy?  Nope. That flatulent bag of puss endorsed Obama too.  You haven't heard much from Slick Willie lately have you.  They told him to shut his big trap.  He was hurting his wife's candidacy. 
No, not big labor, not the swimmer, I'm talking about the political power brokers and yes, the Clintons still have them in the bag.  They're looking for someone who knows how to play the game, and Obama hasn't come off as a game player yet. 

Understand I shudder at the very thought of either one being elected.  I'm just trying to be realistic.  I agree with Kathy, it's going to be an interesting ride, with an outcome either way we're going to have to deal with as best we can.
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« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2008, 04:26:12 PM »

sure you can.  lets take the infant mortality rate.  it has been reported that ours is higher than some other 1st world countries.  that may be true.  how did they arrive at that 'fact'?  if, for instance, they include illegals who come over the border to have babies, but have had no prenatal care, that would change the data.  same goes for longevity stats.  if you include immigrants who have come as adults from countries where they did not have good medical care, they may lower the stats.  knowing how they arrive at the numbers is more important than the end result.  you can not evaluate without that knowledge.
and any statistician who didn't consider these isn't worth his or her salt. You're falling back on a tried and true position: when you don't like what the data says, impune the data. I say prove the studies are wrong. If you've got better data, or a more authoritative study, let's see it. Anyone can throw rocks.

as for what you want, it is not what is being offered.
I know, and I'm disappointed, because neither the republicans nor the dems are actually being very creative in solving this problem


Quote
Many of these, such as the pentagon budget, are equally costly to taxpayers, and some might argue accomplish less for them than a national health system.


regarding physician shortages kathy wrote:
national health care would not solve that unless you are talking about forcing doctors to practice where the government tells the to, and at a set government wage? 
setting up a rational payment system that pays doctors fairly regardless of where they live might do a lot to fix this problem.
also consider, it is not basic services that really cause people problems.  there are many places to get free and low cost basic services.  it's the big stuff that people can't pay for.  giving people free shots doesn't pay for open heart surgery and cancer treatment.
That depends on how you look at it. There is evidence that good basic can head off a major problems, such as catching diabetes before it leads to a heart attack. The problem is that in this country, we have no system for paying for good preventive care. It's all episodic based payment.

You know, Kathy, I understand your points. I believe in personal responsibility, but the several fixes we've tried for health care haven't worked yet. I don't see anyone with a good solution on the horizon. Whatever comes it needs to do the following:
  • Pay providers fairly
  • Ensure that everyone can get the care they need
  • have a uniform set of standards for data exchange so that health information can follow patients regardless of where they choose to get their care/li]
I guess will have to just disagree about the conservative liberal think, you can think me a liberal if you wish, 100 years ago liberal wasn't a dirty word anyway
kev


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« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2008, 08:53:02 PM »


Healthcare in the US is a mess - the insurance plans that people have available to them now are HMOs where the practitioners are often fairly inexperienced, POSs which are HMOs in sheep's clothing, PPOs where you can choose in some plans the provider you use, but the plan pays poorly if the provider is out of network, etc. etc.  Here in Georgia most of us providers have left BCBS which is one of the state's largest insurers because they lowered the rates they pay providers to such a low level that most of us can't afford to offer services at that level.

Linda T bitter in Atlanta

Honest health care providers will admit that this was a self destructing compromise they made themselves to secure business.   The first few Dr.s allowed the insurances to pay them a fraction of their fees to guarantee more business. Then when the other Dr.s jumped in, the funds pool became so diluted that every insurance provider started paying fractions of billed services and getting away with it.

As much as I need my insurance and I am glad to have it for my family, I believe that the Dr.s are going to have to reject care to certain insured groups to get back to where they are in control of their patients care. Outside interferance and litigeous patients are why medical services are so expensive in the first place.

Blah, Blah... not my most eloquent post but it has some half baked ideas in there somewhere.

Good night all,

Steve
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Kev
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« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2008, 08:01:04 PM »

This post got a long way from the original topic, but into some interesting territory. It really got me to thinking about how different people's experiences with health care are depending on where they live in the US.

For those beeks who are interested in learning more about what ideas are out there for ways to improve the system I wanted offer a link to this website. It's the Commonwealth Fund, a non-profit that is dedicated to analyzing health care policy in this country.

They provide a good analysis of all the presidential candidates' positions on health care.

I'm sure some of you will think its just too liberal, or too conservative, too biased, too reliant on those darned population-based statistics or too something. I read some of their analysis, and they look well thought-out. To me I like their non-partisan approach and the fact that they're up front about what their mission is. In today's world, we need more people willing to put their ideology aside, stop shouting and looking for political advantage, and find practical solutions.

Happy reading,

Kev

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2008, 11:46:20 AM »

Is this the health care topic  huh

I found this today if you care to read it,
Shortage of primary care threatens health care system
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20080313/cm_usatoday/shortageofprimarycarethreatenshealthcaresystem
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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