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Author Topic: Clinton or Obama?  (Read 10876 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2008, 12:02:18 PM »

actually, the unsurpassed economic growth has happened under bush.  i am not sure how much credit or blame should go to a president for the swings of the economy.  it is true, however, that the less the government takes from people, the better the economy tends to do.  the economy is driven by the consumer, not the government. 

this knowledge should have a consideration in the choice of leadership.  if someone tells you that they intend to do things that will take money out of the pocket of the consumer, it should be an immediate warning to all that hard times are ahead.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2008, 12:18:17 PM »

How in the world do we have the greatest economic growth and most debt under the same president?
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kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2008, 12:43:52 PM »

that's not hard to understand.  if you got a huge raise in income but spent more on your credit cards, it would be the same.

 in fact, as a percentage of GDP, this is not the greatest amount of debt that we have had.  even so, i would be pleased to see us spend less.  much less.  where would you like to cut?  the most money spent by the US is spent on entitlement programs.  we also spend a good amount on foreign aid and pay 22+% of the UN bill.  we pay the biggest share of the NATO bill and provide much of the equipment.  we are responsible for the majority of the security for n america. 

i know you will say "get out of iraq".  that would save some money, but not much.  pick your poison and make your cuts. 

here is a reasonably good breakdown of the 2007 budget.  you can get it off the CBO site, but you have to dig for the chart smiley

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007



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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2008, 12:51:24 PM »

The economic growth attributed to Clinton actually started with Reagan's policies.  Clinton was smart enough to leave things alone and ride the carpet.  He kept good economic policy people in place.  The Clintons are smart, like foxes. 

My problem with Hillary is she's stayed with a pig of a man, enduring his peccadilloes, solely for the purpose of using his name and legacy to promote herself as a presidential candidate.  I get a kick out of how she promotes herself as having so much experience, etc.....bullfeathers, she's not got the experience, temperment nor credentials to be the president.  I truly wish there was a woman running who I could vote for.  I think the right woman would have no problem.  Hillary isn't the right one.
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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2008, 01:19:02 PM »

Bill Clinton brought to this country 8 years of unsurpassed economic growth. (or something like that.) I know we can't say much about his taste in women but really how bad could Hillary be as president?

Or...was the unsurpassed economic growth brought on by the Republican Congress?

OR it was all brought by the fact that the Congress and President were at odds most of the time so couldn't agree on what to spend all of our money on.

Blanket statements like BC Bringing us that growth is like saying that the looming Recession is brought on by fears of the election of a Democrat president.
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« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2008, 05:05:24 PM »

I am really hoping that Macain chooses Condi Rice as a VP, then I will invite Macain and Chenney out to my Pheasant ranch to do a little hunting. There you go!!! I think that is the best that we can hope for at this point.
F
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« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2008, 04:05:21 PM »

I am really hoping that Macain chooses Condi Rice as a VP, then I will invite Macain and Chenney out to my Pheasant ranch to do a little hunting. There you go!!! I think that is the best that we can hope for at this point.
F

I'm with you on that one--the trouble with presidential politics is that the best candidates never run.  On the Democratic side the Best (Best = Most qualified) candidate was Bill Richardson, on the Republican side, religion aside, it was Mitt Romney--he at least has a good track record in both business and politics and look what he did for the Salt Lake Olympics.  But as Huckabee has shown religious bias still trumps gender or race. 

Has for Shrillery, the more she drops behind Obama the more we see of the real Hillary.  Very spiteful, shrill in tone, and will attempt to use anything to smear a rival.  Not that any of the candidates are clean when it comes to mud slinging but Hillary's accusation that Obama was guilty of plagerism when he had permission of use is a bit of a reach. 
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« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2008, 04:27:13 PM »

Now she wants to challenge our voting rules. (Not that I understand it either) But when you're desperate.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080229/ap_on_el_pr/texas_caucus_challenge_7
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« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2008, 04:55:25 PM »

Quote
But as Huckabee has shown religious bias still trumps gender or race. 


i don't know.  i thought that his run proved that the republican party is not largely populated by mindless religious zealots.  i know many who might agree with his theology, but not his politics.  they would have voted for romney.

i thought duncan hunter was a good pic, but he never got traction.  if the dems had run richardson, i might have voted for him.  not much difference between him and mccain, but i like him better.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2008, 05:50:13 PM »

Quote
But as Huckabee has shown religious bias still trumps gender or race. 


i don't know.  i thought that his run proved that the republican party is not largely populated by mindless religious zealots.  i know many who might agree with his theology, but not his politics.  they would have voted for romney.

Being a Mormon myself maybe I'm a bit thin skinned here but the fundamental christians like Baptist, Pentacostals, Lutherns, & even Catholics have a very huge misunderstanding of the Mormon Church.  The differences are minor yet they act like Mormons are akin to devils.  Ignorance will always trump thoughtful consideration.  The problem with the Republican Party is that is still dominated by christian fundamentalists and hence Romney was unable to get the traction he needed.  Huckabees playing the "Sect" card only exascerbated the situation, so many turned a deaf ear to Romney's message.  Romney is not a conservative Republican and maybe thought too progressive by others in the party.  I kind of thought of him as a John Kennedy in Republican Garb, just like I consider Obama much like a Lincoln in Democratic cloth.

Quote
i thought duncan hunter was a good pic, but he never got traction.  if the dems had run richardson, i might have voted for him.  not much difference between him and mccain, but i like him better.

True, but unfortuantely Duncan never had a chance, he was just too much of an unknown to too many people.   Paul, on the other hand, has attracted the survivalist/conspiracy/constitutionalist fringe that mean well but lack credentials from the more traditional Repulicans.  Voting for mcCain is kind of like voting for Eisenhower all over again and I'm not sure I want a "caretaker" president but will take one over Shrillary anytime.
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kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2008, 05:59:09 PM »

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The problem with the Republican Party is that is still dominated by christian fundamentalists and hence Romney was unable to get the traction he needed.


this is something that the media has fostered as a scare tactic.  the reason that mccain has done better than romney is that so many independents, and "moderates" have latched on to him.  conservatives have gone for romney.  to many of the primary elections are open.  that gave mccain i big hand. 

i will admit that romney being a mormon was not a + with me.  over the last 10 years, i have had some really negative experiences with the mormon church.  maybe it was a local thing.  i don't know.  in the end, i had to choose the politics and hope that the religion was not an issue.  he would have been my choice with what was left.

not trying to set off the mormons on here  smiley  i know there are many. i'm sure most are great. i had a bad experience with one family and one church. it's just going to be a really long time before the word 'mormon' doesn't immediately make me angry.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: February 29, 2008, 07:05:59 PM »

I have to vote in Spain too. The panorama is not nice. Politicos need a pruning every few time. (I´m thinking on the guillotine... grin)

I´m seeing the news on USA and your panorama is not promising either. I see to Hillary shorter, and the eyes knock out of position.... shocked

Obama... afro.....I´m listening that he was muslim when child, when was living in Asia... Undecided, I have nothing against muslims, but it is not my way of life.

And McCain, I am listening that he "loved too much". I don´t know if that is good or bad..hi, hi,...If the love out of control is a problem, why is the Kennedy dancing in politic?
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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: February 29, 2008, 10:52:16 PM »

abejaruco,

it always surprises me a bit that other countries are so interested in our elections.  i guess we do make a good show.  smiley

how often do you have national elections?  seems like you just had one, but time does fly by.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2008, 12:42:43 AM »

Quote
The problem with the Republican Party is that is still dominated by christian fundamentalists and hence Romney was unable to get the traction he needed.


this is something that the media has fostered as a scare tactic.  the reason that mccain has done better than romney is that so many independents, and "moderates" have latched on to him.  conservatives have gone for romney.  to many of the primary elections are open.  that gave mccain i big hand. 

i will admit that romney being a mormon was not a + with me.  over the last 10 years, i have had some really negative experiences with the mormon church.  maybe it was a local thing.  i don't know.  in the end, i had to choose the politics and hope that the religion was not an issue.  he would have been my choice with what was left.

not trying to set off the mormons on here  smiley  i know there are many. i'm sure most are great. i had a bad experience with one family and one church. it's just going to be a really long time before the word 'mormon' doesn't immediately make me angry.


I can see where you might think it is a media scare tactic on religious fundamentalism, but the media is anti-religion in any form, not just Mormons, that just adds to the distaste of the progressives.  The McCain thing is actually an example of what I'n talking about.  He is more conservative in most of his positions than Romney yet Romney gets tarred with the ultraconservative brush because of his "Mormanism."  No, religious affiliation is still a deciding factor in the Bible Belt which translates to Protestant, they just avoid the word because it's not PC.

I know what you mean, I'm a Mormon yet I've met some I wouldn't want to be in heaven with.  But the Catholics have priests who prey and Protestants have philandering or gay ministers who stray.  Name any religion and you will find its bad apples as well as its good ones--the bad ones are more noticeable even if they are fewer by 1000 fold.  I wasn't cheering for Romney because he was a Mormon, I just liked the way he's handled his business, political, and philanthric (Olympics) roles.  On the down side he's just a little too slick looking and too quick to switch trails for my liking.  I don't mind someone changing there opinions but I like it to seem more deliberating than politically motivated.
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abejaruco
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« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2008, 03:10:12 AM »

Quote
it always surprises me a bit that other countries are so interested in our elections.  i guess we do make a good show. 
The whole world want to know who will be the "Harri Potter" that will use your "magic wand"....Any countries will get fat... and others will get thin...

Quote
how often do you have national elections?

Locals, regionals and nationals (too much people eating, "moochers, leeches, cadgers, deadbeats") and they are every 4 years.

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« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2008, 07:52:56 AM »

I can't stand this - Romney is no conservative!  He was our governor for a short time - really just a stepping stone for his run for the White House.  I am so happy he lost.  He will do and say anything to get elected, I really came to despise him.  He lied when he came into office here that he would serve out his term, I knew from the beginning he wasn't really interested.  He claims to have 'cut taxes', but all he really did was change taxes to 'fees' and raise them through the roof.  The bullfeathers I heard about him being so conservative during his run was laughable.  I have absolutely no respect for him.

McCain isn't a conservative, either (although I do have respect for him as a man and for his life experiences), he's anti-gun, anti free speech, pro illegal immigrant (I don't care what he's saying now).  I'm convinced we are screwed here for the next presidential term, no matter who gets in.  I just hope that the damage can be undone somehow....someday.....but I fear it can't.
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kathyp
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« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2008, 11:03:58 AM »

there ya go.  that's the whole problem.  the republican party did not give us a conservative to choose. huckabee is not a conservative either. 

the reason that conservative would choose romney over mccain is that mccain is a political and media wh***.  many are, but mccains reasons seem to be different.  he seems to want to be loved.  thats a pretty bad thing to want if you are going to be a leader.

my last straw with him was his terrorist bill of rights. i thought it was stupid, but it was his reasoning that set me off.  1.  if we didn't do this how could we expect other countries not to torture our soldiers when captured?  apparently he was asleep through the entire 1st 3 years in iraq and afghanistan.  and 2.  it would make the world feel better about us if we had this.  well, i don't give a rats backside what the world thinks.  i care that we get the job done and use what we need to use to make sure that my sons come home safely.  if that means poring water up the nose of some wing nut, it's fine with me.

anyway, i'm not trying to say that romney was a good choice, just that mccain has betrayed conservatives so many times that almost anyone would be better.  i have even heard republicans say that they'd vote for obama or hillary to keep mccain out. 

oops, i think we ran the democrats off their own thread.  sorry about that guys.  i promise to shut up now.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2008, 11:26:05 AM »

  i promise to shut up now.

 rolleyes
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« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2008, 01:46:24 PM »

The economic growth attributed to Clinton actually started with Reagan's policies. 

Seems to be a little revisionist history  here Wink

My recollection of the why George 1 got the boot is there was a recession on. And George 1 himself called Reagan's trickle down policies "voodoo economics."  Ever since Reagan died the right has been trying to lionize him. No doubt he was a pretty good prez, but you can't tie every good thing that happened in the last 30 years to his presidency.

Bill Clinton screwed up a lot of stuff. His policy on terrorism is a perfect example. But economically, he was pretty strong. Much better the George 2.

Regarding health care. It's not as another poster said, "You all get crappy health care," but we all get pretty good health care.

As it is right now, only some of us get average care.

If you take the time to look at the stats. The US trails every developed country with universal health care in real measures of quality: life expectancy, prenatal care, access to primary care. What scares people is that some people in those other countries have to wait for elective surgeries or expensive high-end treatments like the Gamma knife for treating cancer or the MRI for a hurt knee.

So, given that we already have an unequal system where some get great care and some don't we should run with it and at least give everyone basic care.

We should set a system that gives all of us access to a basic set of primary services. And, allows people to buy up for the fancy treatments that they want. Essentially preserving the aspects of our system that people want but building a stronger universal, tax-funded safety net for all of us.

Yes, there are scary stories from Canada, the UK and other countries with universal health insurance. But who hasn't heard a scary story about someone whose insurance company denied them care right here.

The #1 reason for bankruptcy in the US (at least until the mortgage crisis) was medical debt.

Kev
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2008, 08:12:41 PM »

Obama... afro.....I´m listening that he was muslim when child, when was living in Asia... Undecided, I have nothing against muslims, but it is not my way of life.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20080229/cm_huffpost/089271

"So let's set the record straight. I have known Barack Obama for more than 10 years, and we have been talking about his Christian faith for a decade. Like me and many other Christians, he agrees with the need to reach out to Muslims around the world, especially if we are ever to defeat Islamic fundamentalism. But he is not a Muslim, never has been, never attended a Muslim madrassa, and does not attend a black "separatist" church."
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